Imigration

[DuncanONeil]

[QUOTE=MMI;871348]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
And of course you can tell just by looking at them, right? Something in their eyes, perhaps?

Yes, I can tell. Not from the look in their eyes, but from their actions. The first group commit crimes of a heinous nature, the second group break the law out of necessity - a law which says, they're of less value than the rest of us are.

There is, almost, never a necessity to violate a law. Such an action is a choice, every time. Doing so has consequences. However, most that think in this particular case the law should not matter are close to being on the side of anarchy. Since they wish to be able to decide which laws should be able to apply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
They have illegally crossed an international border.
That's against the law anywhere in the world.

Agreed ... but a bad law.

Why are rules to manage the borders of a given country a "bad law"? You are essentially saying that a country has no right to its sovereignty!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
And they take more than they can repay. Many, perhaps most, send funds out of the country for their families, an admirable thing perhaps, but still an additional drain on the economy. They don't pay taxes, yet they consume resources intended for citizens.

First point is false. On balance they contribute more than they take (in UK anyway - and we're more generous than you).

I would venture to suggest that the amount of money leaving the UK to go to foreign families is far less than the money that leaves UK to supplement the coffers of the Coca-Cola Company or McDonalds or General Motors, etc. So what's your point here?

We alll know the wealthy don't pay taxes while the poor do. But that aside, the people employing these illegals are also avoiding taxes and other duties while they manufacture cheap goods in illlegal sweat shops that you and I glady pay for in preference to the pricey but legitimate goods that would be the alternative. You just close your mind to the fact that goods are made illegally.

And they only consume what they can buy from the pittance they get from their Masters (the slavery metaphor is not accidental): they can't get state support - they're illegal, they'd be declaring their presence!

It may be true that those in the UK send out a small sum but such is not the case in the US. Something in excess of $17 billion in a year. On top of that it is estimated that the cost of these illegals cost the country some $100 billion annually (ABC News)

"We alll know the wealthy don't pay taxes while the poor do."
Just how do you make this statement. I am sure you understand the system in the UK but have you researched the US tax system? The bottom 50% of wage earners pay less than 4% of the income tax. The top 5% of wage earners pay a piddling 53.25% (IRS). So just what leads you to say this?

"But that aside, the people employing these illegals are also avoiding taxes and other duties while they manufacture cheap goods in illlegal sweat shops" You are making an assumption with this statement, at laeast as far as the "sweat shop". Breaking other laws aside if an employer hires an illegal they should be punished!

"(T)he pittance they get from their Masters". Again another unsupported assumption! They don't get state support!?!?! Then how do you account for illegals getting free health care, food stamps, and various other social services that I would have to be nearly at deaths door to even thing of being allowed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
Sorry, but there really isn't. There may be varying degrees of criminal behavior, but it's criminal nonetheless.

A crime is a crime, absolutely, but a tort isn't. Trespass, which is what I was comparing illegally entering a nation with, is a tort in England.

While torts are civil action in court it is not axiomatic that the underlying reason for the tort is not criminal. The underlying legal requirement of a tort is an injury. Said injury may be to "the person, such as assault, battery, imprisonment; to the property in possession; or they may be committed without force. Torts of this nature are to the absolute or relative rights of persons, or to personal property in possession or reversion, or to real property, corporeal or encorporeal, in possession or reversion: these injuries may be either by nonfeasance, malfeasance, or misfeasance." (http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/t032.htm)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
I see no reason for doing something like that. You just spend more money keeping them in prison, feeding them and their families, providing them medical care. Just send the whole family packing.

The reason is to make sure that no-one is denied a right to stay if they have one. But the way they are treated borders on inhumane.

The inhumane treatment at the border does not come from the US but the Coyotes that take the illegals money for a promise of transport to the US. Unless you wish to say that every single arrest ever made is inhumane treatment. Sometimes the only thing that keeps these people alive IS being arrested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
I just don't understand why people don't see the problem. Would you be okay with your neighbors just walking into your home and helping themselves to your food and property, sleeping in your beds, taking your money and sending it to their relatives next door? That's what this is about, isn't it? Regardless of their reasons, regardless of their problems, they are stealing from the citizens of this, and your, country. Why should we not do all in our power to stop them?

I don't understand why you see it as a problem. Illegal aliens do not, as a rule, walk inot people's houses and take over - it would attract far too much attention. They don't take my money unless I give it to them to buy something they have had to make illegally, so that makes me complicit. That's not stealing. As every American can see, it's free enterprise. And as for "stealing" your country ... don't start me off on that ...

Not only is what they are doing nearly the same as stealing but some are in fact advocating that what they are doing is perfectly legitimate as Hispanics were in the area first!