Subsidized everything

[Thorne]

So, are you arguing that you need an external threat (i.e an oppresive monarchy) to force the politicians to work together sufficiently to acheive something like the American constitution (which was an amazing achievement for its time)?

No, what I'm saying is that I doubt modern politicians, or businessmen as most of our founders were, could establish any kind of legal system which even theoretically made them no better than the average man on the street in the eyes of the law. The Constitution was indeed an amazing achievement, one which I don't think modern men could even approach.

I do wonder sometimes if the various member states of the US remember that it was not all that long ago (late 19th century for many) when they were still independent 'countries' rather than part of the union. I know it is common for outsiders to think that 'the USA' is one country rather than a federal organisation of seperate states (with thier own laws) but is this attitude common in the US as well?

While this is theoretically, and even constitutionally, true, in reality the federal government has usurped many of the states' rights over the years, generally for seemingly good reasons, at least at the time. For the most part this has been a good thing, making us a more united country and far more powerful in world politics. Which allowed the US to pull British butts from the fires of two German wars, after all.

[fetishdj]

While this is theoretically, and even constitutionally, true, in reality the federal government has usurped many of the states' rights over the years, generally for seemingly good reasons, at least at the time. For the most part this has been a good thing, making us a more united country and far more powerful in world politics. Which allowed the US to pull British butts from the fires of two German wars, after all.

Eventually...

I think the period was one of idealism in politics. The American revolution, the French revolution, the Jacobin uprisings in the UK (Tolpuddle, Peterloo), even the start of communism (I think I remember Marx writing his famously misunderstood book about this time...). I think everyone seemed to have just got bored of monarchy all at the same time I agree that I don't think you will get the same idealism now.

I think Europe's problems at the moment is that they are not states as the American states are/were but countries that are far more different and older and stubborn. Most of whom have ruled over most of the others at some point or other. The UKs alliance with France, for example, is very recent and we have been at war with them far longer than we have ever been at peace. So we'll never get that unity, at least not for a long while.

[Thorne]

I think the period was one of idealism in politics. The American revolution, the French revolution, the Jacobin uprisings in the UK (Tolpuddle, Peterloo), even the start of communism (I think I remember Marx writing his famously misunderstood book about this time...). I think everyone seemed to have just got bored of monarchy all at the same time I agree that I don't think you will get the same idealism now.

I think a big part of it was a growing understanding that nobles were not the be all and end all of life. With more and more books available to even the common people, more people learning to read and gain an education, the early beginnings of the industrial revolution supplying jobs, all conspired to break the nobles' hold on the minds of their subjects and allow those subjects to believe they really could be free.

I think Europe's problems at the moment is that they are not states as the American states are/were but countries that are far more different and older and stubborn. Most of whom have ruled over most of the others at some point or other. The UKs alliance with France, for example, is very recent and we have been at war with them far longer than we have ever been at peace. So we'll never get that unity, at least not for a long while.

I agree, it's going to be a long road before there can be any hope of real unity, but the seeds have been planted and hopefully they will take root and grow. The best thing that can happen to mankind at this time would be for people to realize that centuries-old feuds between now mostly defunct noble houses are no longer relevant and should be forgotten.

I won't hold my breath, though.

[tedteague]

[QUOTE=fetishdj;874925]Eventually...

I think the period was one of idealism in politics. The American revolution, the French revolution, the Jacobin uprisings in the UK (Tolpuddle, Peterloo), even the start of communism (I think I remember Marx writing his famously misunderstood book about this time

marx wrote in the 1840s