A Must Read!

[Thorne]

There you go again...are you so sure thats why religion came into being?

No, I'm not sure. That's why I said "I would venture to say", stating it as an opinion, or speculation.

See when you take the idea of a benevolent god out of the picture everything is reduced to Machiavellian levels.

And just which "benevolent god" are we talking about here? I'm not familiar with too many.

I guess thats the Atheists way huh? Control and cruelty?

Oh certainly. It's atheists who kill those who convert to another religion, isn't it? No, wait. That's Islam:

Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ارتداد, irtidād or ridda‎) is commonly defined as the rejection in word or deed of their former religion (apostasy) by a person who was previously a follower of Islam. The traditional schools of Islamic jurisprudence are unanimous in holding that apostasy by a male Muslim is punishable by death. They differ on whether to execute the apostate immediately or grant the apostate a temporary reprieve in order to allow him to repent and avoid the penalty. The schools also differ on whether a female apostate is to be killed, or only imprisoned until she re-embraces the faith.

Or maybe Christians:

Within 5 years of the official 'criminalisation' of heresy by the emperor, the first Christian heretic to be prosecuted, Priscillian was executed in 385 by Roman officials. For some years after the reformation, Protestant churches were also known to execute those whom they considered as heretics, including Catholics, and later, in North America, the Salem witch trials. The last known heretic executed by sentence of the Catholic Church was Cayetano Ripoll in 1826. The number of people executed as heretics under the authority of the various 'church authorities' is not known, however it most certainly numbers into the several thousands.

though the Christian churches seem to have grown out of the practice.

Or perhaps Judaism:

The Torah states:

Deuteronomy 13:6-10:

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.[16]

They seem to have gotten over it, too.

I never heard of an atheist apostate, though there have been people who have gone back to religion after becoming atheists. I don't think any of them were condemned for it, though.

Spiritualism didnt develope out of a need to control someone elses actions.

I never claimed it did. I said religions did. Spiritualism, and faith, developed out of individual searches for truth.

[denuseri]

No, I'm not sure. That's why I said "I would venture to say", stating it as an opinion, or speculation.

Veiling the attack by any other name.


And just which "benevolent god" are we talking about here? I'm not familiar with too many.

If you only look for the negative in it, that is all you will find.


Oh certainly. It's atheists who kill those who convert to another religion, isn't it? No, wait. That's Islam:

No it is individuals who kill each other, not religions and the athiests hands are no more clean than anyone elses in that department, look at all the people killed enforcing mandatory state invoked athiesm in the Communist Countries just once.

Or maybe Christians:

though the Christian churches seem to have grown out of the practice.

Or perhaps Judaism:

They seem to have gotten over it, too.

Its not the religion, its the people of the time period.

I never heard of an atheist apostate, though there have been people who have gone back to religion after becoming atheists. I don't think any of them were condemned for it, though.


I never claimed it did. I said religions did. Spiritualism, and faith, developed out of individual searches for truth.

No religions didnt, the actions of individuals did.

You only wish to see the bad in religion, so much so thats all you want to see its all you will see. But if it wasn't for religion we wouldnt have civilization.

Again, you resort to painting everyone that doesnt share your faith with the same brush.

So there is no point in continueing, have fun with your rant.

Good day.

[TantricSoul]

I wonder about that, sometimes. I can't understand how someone could pass a critical thinking course, yet still fall under the spell of someone like Chopra.

I wouldn't say I've fallen under his spell ... I would say that what I have read of his work, which isn't a great amount, fits in with what I already believed.

I don't know if you're old enough to remember the 60's ...

No I was born just after the 60's ... I do remember the late 70's and the 80's quite well.

But I take nothing on faith, only with evidence...

I don't doubt this... nor do I doubt what I believe either.


... But if you want to try to force your beliefs onto others, to infiltrate the laws of the land with your beliefs, to hide behind those beliefs while committing foul crimes against others, then I will fight you. And I won't be alone. Atheists are organizing, growing more confident, and fighting back against the institutions which have terrorized and persecuted them throughout history.

It's not just the atheists that deplore the actions noted above ... many of the faithful / spiritual do as well. I have very personal, first hand knowledge, of those who "hide behind those beliefs while committing foul crimes against others" ... I denied everything religious and spiritual for the first 3.5 decades of my life because of how my stepfather, a Protestant minister, treated his family behind the closed doors of our parsonages. Also I completely understand that the "you" in your paragraph above is in the general sense not the personal, after all I haven't seen alot of "you must believe as I do or you are going to hell" kind of language on these boards.

... The fact that atheists can live good, moral lives.

Of course, they are humans same as the believers, both equally capable of actions that could, and often are, labeled as good or bad.

I don't need to show anyone else evidence about my opinions or beliefs, for the sole reason that they are mine, no one will interpret anything in this world exactly the same as me. And nobody values knowledge they do not first seek, then find reason to agree with, on their own. I do not seek to convince, cajole, or otherwise prove that I am right and another is wrong, whether the topic be religion, politics, or the hue of blue. This was hard to give up, but has made my life much less frustrating.

[DuncanONeil]

Religion has always fluorished in ignorance.

In the Renaissance most of the scientists WERE members of various religious orders.

[Thorne]

In the Renaissance most of the scientists WERE members of various religious orders.

That's mostly because only the members of the religious orders, and perhaps some of the nobility, were encouraged to be educated. And it was the religious orders who did all the teaching, for the most part.