Least and most religious nations

[denuseri]

I just hope that such state replacement isnt worse in the end than what it is attempting to replace.

The biological need for the spiritual itch to be scratched is a perplexing one, its as much a part of our hardware as any other component of human pycology according to the latest reaserch.

Perhaps Mill and other Utilitarians were prophets to some degree.

[leo9]

I just hope that such state replacement isnt worse in the end than what it is attempting to replace.

The difference is that state-provided security leaves you free to choose your own spiritual path if you feel drawn to one. The state doesn't demand to be worshipped. (Those states that did, failed the security test, as shown by the explosion of religiosity in the ex-USSR.)

The consumer economy, on the other hand, does demand worship, full time and devoted, but that's another branch of this thread, which IMO needs to be split off into a topic of its own.

[Thorne]

The consumer economy, on the other hand, does demand worship, full time and devoted

Nonsense. The consumer economy only demands consumers and suppliers. There's nothing to worship. Suppliers provide the products, consumers purchase them. If the suppliers don't provide quality products, consumers don't, or at least shouldn't, buy them.

People want to believe that their lives are controlled by the evil corporations, but in reality the corporations can only exist as long as we continue to purchase their products. If you aren't happy with the products, stop buying them! If you don't like the way the corporations do business, start your own business. People start new businesses every day around the world. (And businesses fail every day, too.)

And I am sick and tired of hearing people complain about the corporations making profits. That's what corporations are there for! It's what they do! If you want to develop a product, manufacture it, sell it and not make a profit at it, then I have to think the problem lies with you, and not with those who DO make a profit. How many people are willing to work for just enough money to pay their bills, with nothing left for extras? No movie tickets, no restaurant outings, no cable TV. Just food and housing, the basic necessities. Yet this is exactly what they expect the corporations to do: make no profits, nothing above the cost of actually doing business. That's just silly, and selfish.

[thir]

If the suppliers don't provide quality products, consumers don't, or at least shouldn't, buy them.

However, things are just not that easy. How do your know if a product is quality, or even safe? Do you think the ads will tell you? I recently posted an article about medicine, and how the medicinal industry largely control release of their products, safe or not, useful or not. That is just one example.

You can do things in some cases, but first you have to know.

And I am sick and tired of hearing people complain about the corporations making profits.

Then stop reading about it. Nobody is forcing you.

That's what corporations are there for! It's what they do! If you want to develop a product, manufacture it, sell it and not make a profit at it, then I have to think the problem lies with you, and not with those who DO make a profit. How many people are willing to work for just enough money to pay their bills, with nothing left for extras? No movie tickets, no restaurant outings, no cable TV. Just food and housing, the basic necessities. Yet this is exactly what they expect the corporations to do: make no profits, nothing above the cost of actually doing business. That's just silly, and selfish.

Poor little coporations - how they must suffer! ;-)

[Thorne]

However, things are just not that easy. How do your know if a product is quality, or even safe? Do you think the ads will tell you? I recently posted an article about medicine, and how the medicinal industry largely control release of their products, safe or not, useful or not. That is just one example.

You can do things in some cases, but first you have to know.

One way is to do the research, something which is vastly easier, on the consumer level, due to the access granted by the internet. Check out consumer groups, look for others who have tried the product, develop a list of "trusted" producers that you will be more likely to purchase from. For example, I enjoy eating fresh peaches. We generally buy those which are grown locally, and they are generally delicious. At one point, when the local supply was gone, my wife bought some peaches which had been imported from Chile. They were terrible! We don't buy those kinds of peaches anymore.

Granted, you can't always know everything you need to know, but people have to stop blaming corporations and take a little responsibility on themselves to find out.

Then stop reading about it. Nobody is forcing you.

Touche! <grin> But if I stop reading about it I can't argue about it. And that's more than half the fun.

[thir]

One way is to do the research, something which is vastly easier, on the consumer level, due to the access granted by the internet

Good thinkg we have it then, or we would be at the mercy of the corps!

Check out consumer groups, look for others who have tried the product, develop a list of "trusted" producers that you will be more likely to purchase from.

Does anyone have the time to do this for every product??

I happen to think that it is more reasonable and logical that an official independent body does this research, rather than we all do it individually. And anyway official authority and laboratories would be nessecary.

Granted, you can't always know everything you need to know, but people have to stop blaming corporations and take a little responsibility on themselves to find out

What you are saying is that the corps can do what they like as long as it makes money, and it is up to us to survive the products.

[/QUOTE]

[Thorne]

Does anyone have the time to do this for every product??

Probably not, but it's not always necessary. Word of mouth works well. If your friends and neighbors are happy with something, at least it's worth giving it a try. It's only in expensive items, such as appliances, cars, tv's, etc., that research would prove beneficial.

I happen to think that it is more reasonable and logical that an official independent body does this research, rather than we all do it individually. And anyway official authority and laboratories would be nessecary.

There is Consumer Reports, of course, which is supposed to be independent. But you still have to look for their reports, research what they have learned. You can't expect them to send out info to everyone.

What you are saying is that the corps can do what they like as long as it makes money, and it is up to us to survive the products.

Not at all! The corporations should be controlled, to at least some degree, by the government. But making sure their products are suitable FOR YOU is your responsibility.

[Thorne]

The biological need for the spiritual itch to be scratched is a perplexing one, its as much a part of our hardware as any other component of human pycology according to the latest reaserch.

What do you mean by "spiritual itch"? In fact, what do you mean by spiritual anything? I hear, and see, people using that word all the time and it seems to mean just about anything the user wants it to mean.

What is spiritual? How do you measure it? How do you touch it? You mention a spiritual itch, and all I can think of is that annoying itch I sometimes get that seems to keep moving around whenever I try to scratch it. leo9 talks of a 'spiritual path', which conjures up images of hippies sitting around getting high while pretending to make some magical journey into Neverland or something.

As near as I can figure, spirituality is something like virtual reality, in that it seems to be real but isn't. It has the appearance of truth, but is all smoke and mirrors. There's nothing there to grab hold of, nothing to feel, nothing at all. It's like eating virtual food: looks good, but doesn't fill your stomach.

How does one follow a spiritual path? Are there spiritual hiking boots to protect your feet? Will spiritual camping equipment be needed, or is this a one day spiritual hike? What about spiritual protection against spiritual dangers?

So many questions, and no meaningful answers.

[thir]

What do you mean by "spiritual itch"?

I would guess that the fact that some people cannot be content with a full stomach, and loads of gadgets.

[Thorne]

I would guess that the fact that some people cannot be content with a full stomach, and loads of gadgets.

Yes, I see. They always want more, more, more. Just like those corporations they complain about.

[thir]

Quote Originally Posted by thir View Post
I would guess that the fact that some people cannot be content with a full stomach, and loads of gadgets.

Yes, I see. They always want more, more, more. Just like those corporations they complain about.

I walked into that one, didn't I? :-)

But you know that what I meant was that some cannot be content or happy simply by not starving or having lots of toys.

Even if you rule out religion, there are needs that are not strictly material. The material ones are more or less food, shelter, safety, sex.

But there are others. Fellowships/friendship, respect, self/respect, freedom, self-actualization - and so on.

Marlowe adds others, morality, for instance.

What about creativity, musicality? Where does that come from?

And we are on the way to spirituality.

[Thorne]

I walked into that one, didn't I? :-)

"Step into my parlor...."

But you know that what I meant was that some cannot be content or happy simply by not starving or having lots of toys

That's part of being human, I suppose. The urge to have more. The security of excess. I don't see a problem with it as long as it's not hurting others.

Fellowships/friendship, respect, self/respect, freedom, self-actualization - and so on.

Emotional needs. Not sure what the corporations have to do with these. These are more of a personal nature. And I'm not sure if they're actual needs or simply desires. We may WANT respect, generally, but I don't know that we actually NEED it.

Marlowe adds others, morality, for instance.

This one is more of a societal need than a personal one. Individuals don't NEED morality, except to function within a society. And the moral rules are generally set by that society, not by the individuals.

What about creativity, musicality? Where does that come from?
And we are on the way to spirituality.

I don't see what these have to do with spirituality. Creativity is a mental process, strictly biological, not spiritual. The same with music and art. They are functions of the mind, no different than any other kind of thought process. What need of spirituality here?

[lucy]

The biological need for the spiritual itch to be scratched is a perplexing one, its as much a part of our hardware as any other component of human pycology according to the latest reaserch.

Says who? I haven't been researched. Nobody ever researches me. That's probably why the come up with that. Dammit!
I don't feel no spiritual itch. I sometimes feel an itch between my legs, but that usually goes away with a good hearty screwing, so I guess it's not spiritual.