Red flags for those new to the lifestyle

[VaAugusta]

I hope we can be critical of something without being presumed irresponsible. When posters use phrases such as: "a must read for those new". It's hard not to infer absolute terms are being used, when the list could be further from the truth. Indeed, as Snark stated these signs are consistent with a sociopath. However, to lump-sum would be a little misguided, and Stone stated that was not the intent but rather provide a guideline. The problem, at least to me, with the safety police is that it is impossible to use any list at all when it comes to safety. They are disjointed, to be exact. Either the claim is obvious:

"Goes to great lengths to get revenge on people."
I can only imagine an example. Hopefully a lot of maniacal laughing was used.

Or the claim is dubious:
"Has multiple online identities for interacting with the same communities."
As Lady FireinIce essentially disproved, not putting my real name on my yahoo messenger account actually promotes my own safety.

Then there is a third example I realized, the claim is opposite of reality:
"Has no BDSM references or friends you can talk to."
"Criticizes the BDSM community and refuses to participate, especially if they never were part of it."

I hope I can be forgiven for not wanting to hang out in a warehouse with some bald guys. To be completely honest, I find people who go to "dungeons" a lot, seem to be the most creepy and furtherest away from reality. Being part of the BDSM "community" doesn't make someone suddenly less dangerous. In fact, I feel I could argue (with equally strong premises as aforementioned, i.e. none) that they are more dangerous than normal people.

In conclusion, I feel that Snark's post is probably most accurate. If someone falls under the "obvious" category, then you would want to stay away from this revenge-seeker regardless of his or her sexual appetite. All non-obvious points listed are quite dubious/wrong, and should be viewed as such. Which, ironically, will cause the reader to question the integrity of the list at all. My hope is that it won't come to that, and any sane person can view any list like the one above with the grain of salt it deserves.

[leo9]

<<< Has no idea why people would be offended by this thread or the promotion of safety. It doen't make sence to get bent over people wishing to look out for other people, unless the redflag shoe fits for some reason.

I think some people feel that this sort of hard headed reality check spoils the fun. To which I can only say that dating an axe murderer spoils the fun a whole lot more. (No, I'm not exagerating, some inadequately cautious subs have done literally that.)

I see way too many people come online who appear to leave their common sence at the log in screen. I was unfortunate enough to do that very thing myself once and almost paid the ultimate price. It pains me to think how many of my sisters make the same mistakes.

Amen to that. I've been in touch with a few.

One of the things I like about this site over others is that it doesn't promote that kind of thinking (or lack there of) and I would like to thank them as well as the OP and others (I know you know who you are) for taking the time to remind people to keep a hold of that common sence and put safety first over kink.

I second that.

[Chekaman]

Safety must ALLWAYS come first.

[thir]

My point was that it was written around a Male Dom who would raise flags.

Is it nessecary to say that this obviously goes for fem doms as well? Only, so many male subs are quite incredibly careless about their own safety!

[thir]

But if differing opinions aren't welcome I can easily shut up.

I think first stage is to post such a red-flag list, stage two is to discuss it. It migh make many things clearer.

[thir]

"Goes to great lengths to get revenge on people."
I can only imagine an example. Hopefully a lot of maniacal laughing was used.

There are people who can bear a serious and potentially dangrous grudge who would never dream of warning anyone. I am glad if you haven't met any.

Or the claim is dubious:
"Has multiple online identities for interacting with the same communities."
As Lady FireinIce essentially disproved, not putting my real name on my yahoo messenger account actually promotes my own safety.

That is why it is good to discuss the list - what is meant? What is the context? It is hard to make a list which is short yet covers everything.

Then there is a third example I realized, the claim is opposite of reality:
"Has no BDSM references or friends you can talk to."
"Criticizes the BDSM community and refuses to participate, especially if they never were part of it."

I hope I can be forgiven for not wanting to hang out in a warehouse with some bald guys.

BDSM communities vary a lot.

To be completely honest, I find people who go to "dungeons" a lot, seem to be the most creepy and furtherest away from reality. Being part of the BDSM "community" doesn't make someone suddenly less dangerous. In fact, I feel I could argue (with equally strong premises as aforementioned, i.e. none) that they are more dangerous than normal people.

Why should people who go to a club or organsations be "creepy and furthest away from reality?" Or, indeed, more dangerous than other people?
Since this is a newcomer's forum, and many are adviced to seek out bdsm societies, maybe you should explain this very emphatic view.

I have myself had only good experiences with such organisations, which gave me security when I started, and good friends which I have had for many years after.
[/QUOTE]

[Stone]

yes when someone is part of a dungeon/club groups....then tend to be alot safer in fact.....why? becuase they have friends and referances to be a member of a dungeon means someone else spoke on thier behalf for them to become a member, and the ones who can,t fallow the rules get banned from the dungeon period...So which would you rather meet a dom who has no ties to the bdsm community, that no one knows, or a card carrying member at a dungeon?? I know which I would choose...

[leo9]

unless the redflag shoe fits for some reason.

Where can I get those redflag shoes? They sound pretty cool

[leo9]

Why should people who go to a club or organsations be "creepy and furthest away from reality?" Or, indeed, more dangerous than other people?

Since he also thinks they're "some bald guys," this is obviously more based on prejudice than real experience. Those of us who actually have some contact with clubs would agree with you. But then, I'm a bald guy (well, retreating hairline,) as well as a fan of clubs, so obviously I'm creepy and far from reality.

[VaAugusta]

I, too, can claim to have plenty of experience with BDSM clubs (as I did in my post!). However, that does not change the fact that there is no basis that dungeon goers are safer than non-dungeon goers.

Thir-- I was simply reversing the logic of the OP. By claiming that non-dungeon goers are more safe, I illustrated that there are no grounds that one group is more or less safe than the other. This was meant to parallel the OP's claim. Both assumptions are wrong, or at least too easily presumed.

[lucy]

I think first stage is to post such a red-flag list, stage two is to discuss it. It migh make many things clearer.

I completely misunderstood VaAugusta's post. In the meantime he explained it to me and if I could I'd delete my last post.

If I had gone out mixing with the local BDSM-scene before I got to know my Master, I think I'd still be a (unhappy and certainly unsatisfied) vanilla. As a single girl I'd either have thought "oh noes! this's fucking predator central!" at the parties or else gotten comatose at one of the local munches.
So, yeah, I really hope the scene were you guys are is better

[thir]

I completely misunderstood VaAugusta's post. In the meantime he explained it to me and if I could I'd delete my last post.

Great when misunderstandings get cleared up :-) That is the good thing about this list, it usually happens rather than things blowing up.

If I had gone out mixing with the local BDSM-scene before I got to know my Master, I think I'd still be a (unhappy and certainly unsatisfied) vanilla. As a single girl I'd either have thought "oh noes! this's fucking predator central!" at the parties or else gotten comatose at one of the local munches.
So, yeah, I really hope the scene were you guys are is better

I am still a bit confused - is this what you have actually experienced, or is it rumour? I think it is a big shame if these munches and societies do not work, but I realize they can be really different from place to place.

When I started out, I just went to one that I heard about on the radio - and I was on my way :-)

[lucy]

Great when misunderstandings get cleared up :-) That is the good thing about this list, it usually happens rather than things blowing up.

The misunderstanding wasn't about this list.

I am still a bit confused - is this what you have actually experienced, or is it rumour? I think it is a big shame if these munches and societies do not work, but I realize they can be really different from place to place.

When I started out, I just went to one that I heard about on the radio - and I was on my way :-)

It's what I have experienced, once I (or we, rather) went out to the scene. Basically the people at the munches here are, well, to be honest, superboring. Also, there doesn't seem to be anybody below the age of 60 attending such a munch. I don't have a problem with older people, but sometimes it would be nice to discuss things with someone who's in about the same place in life as I am.
The parties, well, they were public ones. And badly managed, too. Still, if I hadn't known that they can be different, too, I would have thought that this is what a kink party has to be like. In the meantime we met a couple of good people who we occasionally see at private events. So, no more need to go to public parties and become wank fodder.

My biggest problem with this list: Methinks that people who are likely to make a bad choice are also very very very likely to jump in without thinking or gathering knowledge first. I.e., they will see this list only when it's too late.
Also, it is one more step for people to not take responsibility for themselves.
Plus, it will be misunderstood. There will be people ticking off the numbers on the list and they will forget to use for themselves a little bit more.

One of the things I like about this site over others is that it doesn't promote that kind of thinking (or lack there of) and I would like to thank them as well as the OP and others (I know you know who you are) for taking the time to remind people to keep a hold of that common sence and put safety first over kink.

Sometimes, when I look at the personals here, my skin begins to crawl and cold shivers run up and down my spine. Maybe moderating them wouldn't be such a bad idea, too.

[lady kisa]

hello A/all,
thank you Stone for starting this thread. While i have enjoyed and am slightly frustrated by this thread.
I think the intention of this thread was to help point out possible safety concerns for submissives/Dom/mes.
i am slightly frustrated instead of taking the list at face value, i see peeps getting offended or saying well in certain circumstances its not a real safety concern.
I.E: the very idea that ooh hes only jealous on the 3rd tuesday of the month, so its okay. Or the rationale that a subbie should not have personal friends outside the realm of a dom's control. Or ask to speak with previous submissive since they should just take everything on blind faith because they are told to.
I try to look at the intent when i read anything. the intent i see is one of trying to point out a way to follow your desires, without experiencing unnecessary pain. And while i am glad we can all express ourselves here. I think that rationalizing abusive behavoir instead of trying to protect the new person from predators is not the best use of our knowledge as a community.

[Stone]

Yep, this is not a comperhenshive list of all possible red flags that list would be alot longer but these are all very valid ones. As I said before someone that has one or 2 of these isnt a big deal but even with that said doesnt mean to not take a closer look. The most amusing thing I've seen so far is someone pop up a "red flag" by saying it's not a red flag. I myself pop up one red flag on this list.....now everyone can wonder which one......but people are still going to want to debate this list and say this or that, it is a good list and I stand behind it, this list is even useful to the nillas alot fo this can be applied to any relationship regaurdless if they are kinky or not, I know this would have come in handy to have back long ago in a galaxy far far away when I was nilla

[DeityorDevil]

I stand behind it, this list is even useful to the nillas alot fo this can be applied to any relationship regaurdless if they are kinky or not, I know this would have come in handy to have back long ago in a galaxy far far away when I was nilla

This is a very excellent point, especially when the points listed are taken as a pattern, rather than individual incidents. If one person has a few online accounts because they're not "out" that is a very different thing say, than one person habitually creating profiles at one website over an extended period of time and using them to misrepresent themselves. A P/person who loses their temper over a bad day (or PMS, as mentioned haha) is a very different creature than someone who exhibits consistent emotional lability or consistently loses their temper over stimuli that don't line up with the response given. These are all things that can be major "red flags" in any relationship, kink or otherwise. I would even hesitate to remain in a casual vanilla friendship with someone that exhibited a pattern of some of these behaviors.

Yes, late to the thread. But, I did just join, and thought this was highly relevant to comment on.

[Avispet]

•Has no BDSM references or friends you can talk to. Gets angry when you ask for references or ask around about them.
•Criticizes the BDSM community and refuses to participate, especially if they never were part of it.
•Has bad relationships with most or all of their family members.

Guess everyone should just red flag me then. I don't belong to the "community" nor do I have any desire to do so. I also don't feel a need to go around asking others about someone. It's not a relationship by committee.
And if you knew my family, you'd had bad or no relationship with them either. Not everyone came from the Cleaver family.

[Avispet]

Also, he monitors my activities online and I certainly have no problem with that.
I also know a woman whose master isolated her from friends and family when they first got together because he didn't want her to be distracted from their relationship. I'm sure she'd be tickled pink to know that should've been a red flag for her twenty odd years and five kids ago.

[DeityorDevil]

I too have poor relationships with my biological family (no Cleavers here either) but I do have other people close to me in my life, despite the fact that by nature I'm kind of a spiky and cantankerous asshole. "Family" can include a wide variety of definitions. I don't think the list is meant to be prescriptive, simply things to be aware of. And no offense intended, but you do belong to this community, and have important information to contribute here, for the purposes of discussion or elucidation, or you'd not have posted, yes?

[Stone]

Here we go again people picking one two three of them and saying OMG SERIAL KILLER RUN RUN RUN, people who tend to be dangerous have alot of these not just 1 2 or 3 of them, but like I have repeted over and over the more that get checked off the closer of a look one should take.....

[Pegao]

thats pretty much the point of any list like this.. everybodys different anyway.. i bet any person on here could check of 1 or 2 of these for themselves.. maybe 3-4.. if it starts going down the list.. and theres more red flags than not.. maybe stop and think for a minute about whats going on..

kinda common sense.

[Avispet]

"kinda common sense."

So if you're an adult and have at least a bit of common sense, why would you need a list?

[thir]

"kinda common sense."

So if you're an adult and have at least a bit of common sense, why would you need a list?

Because it is a new situation and there is much you do not know.

[Snark]

The thread reads "new to the life style". With many - if not most - new experiences and/or relationships, the novelty tends to cloud the influence of "common sense". As Sam Clemmons (Mark Twain to the uninformed) penned a few decades ago - "Sense ain't common". If it were, everyone would have it. Actually, sense is far from common. So, without a plethora of common sense and a clouded intelligence due to the novelty, the check list has great merit. As I said early on, if you understand the concept of a sociopath, this list is unnecessary. But the actuality is that all too many people live on cruise control and forget that there ARE sociopaths out there. The TV show "Criminal Minds" is not just fabrication. It is a reflection. Arguing the merits of the list without considering the reality of the people exposed by it will only result in headlines. Having once been in the News industry and seeing the result firsthand, I can freaking guarantee that some of those who don't stop and consider these consequences of ignoring this will in fact become a: headlines and b: casualties.

[DeityorDevil]

"kinda common sense."

So if you're an adult and have at least a bit of common sense, why would you need a list?

A great deal of the time lust leads people to do stupid things.

Arguing the merits of the list without considering the reality of the people exposed by it will only result in headlines.

Unfortunately, this is a very scary potential reality.

[VaAugusta]

On a personal note:

I'm a bit new to the zoo community, I don't go very often.. But when I do, believe me, I don't need a sign telling me not to go into the lion pit.

...

[Snark]

Bestiality is a different thread! :

[Avispet]

On a personal note:

I'm a bit new to the zoo community, I don't go very often.. But when I do, believe me, I don't need a sign telling me not to go into the lion pit.

...

I certainly hope you set up a safe call beforehand.

[Avispet]

Because it is a new situation and there is much you do not know.

So, when starting to explore d/s, somehow people suddenly forget everything they've ever done before? People who supposedly have been getting to know other people, dating, having relationships for years up until this point without benefit of a list.

[DeityorDevil]

With varying degrees of success... Arguably, if one has their wits around them and is practicing common sense, a "warning list" is uneccesary. And if that were consistently the case, no one would feel the need to say, "hm, newer or inexperienced folks seem to have problems with xyz. How about we make a list of xyz just in case?" No list can be a perfect reflection of reality, nor apply universally. I think it's simply descriptive, rather than prescriptive, if it doesn't apply, then it doesn't. I don't think it was posted as a condemnation of anyone, just as a selection of potentially problematic behaviors, with the intent of benefitting others who might not be aware of them.