Book Burning

[Thorne]

At no time is this more apparent to me than when I study the history and chemistry and physics of our planet and people, from its beginings during what we so far believe to be in the big bang to the present.

Allow me to speculate: you study these sciences and feel that certain things would not be possible without God? But I study these same things and say, "Where is this god?" I see no evidence for any kind of supernatural intervention in this universe. I see many coincidences, and many things which we might not yet understand, but that does not mean God, to me. What I do see are people figuratively tossing a coin into the air, drawing a circle around the coin when it lands, then claiming that it's impossible for that coin to have landed so precisely in that circle, therefore gods!

Just as precluding the existence of a god is by all standards of logic also just as likely to be "a bunch of hokum".

And for the umpteenth time I must say, I do not preclude the existence of gods. I only say that there is no definitive evidence for them. There is nothing one can point to and say, "There is God!" No one can definitively say that there are no gods. What I can say is that there is no evidence for gods.

I wonder if part of your path of intolereance is a pathological need to enforce your ideas as being the only "right" ones above all others becuse they are obviously too stupid to really have decided for themselves if they believe in anything you disagree with...much like the you accuse so many religions of doing?

I have no need, nor desire, to enforce anything! I don't really care what people choose to believe in. What I DO care about is those people who try to force their beliefs upon me and others, those who want to prevent atheists from holding public office, for example. Or those who want to force their morality on me, even though I find their morality offensive. Also, I do find it important that people understand the history of religious beliefs, learn how those beliefs have been manipulated to control entire populations and to keep religious leaders at the top of the heap.

Just like the atheists. Could it be that saving face and worrying about image are natural human responces?

Yes, these are natural human responses. So I would expect an organization which professes to be the voice of God on Earth would try to stand above such pettiness and try to be more "holy".

Nope I still follow Luthran values, I just was encouraged to study other faiths and spent more time on some than others as they apealed to me at different times...including as mentioned earlier a brief foray into the illogical depths of atheism (the faith of not having a belief in god).

And I respect that. You have obviously spent a lot of time and effort coming to your faith. I don't think you are stupid because of that. It is those who do NOT study religion, who blindly accept the faith of their fathers, those who denigrate all other faiths but their own, simply because it IS their own.

I can't understand WHY you would choose to believe in something for which there is no evidence. But I can respect the fact that you have made a conscious choice.

The atheists simpley have no more ground to stand on with their cool aide than any other faith or belief system.

And once more I challenge you to explain how NOT believing in gods can be a faith. I do not BELIEVE there are no gods. I simply DON'T believe there are. If you can provide me with evidence, solid evidence, which can be tested, I'll be happy to change my mind. All I've ever seen from most theists are self-confirming anecdotes and demands that I "open my mind to accepting God". Whatever that means.

Calling everyone who doesnt believe in your way of thinking stupid without any more proof than the people your accusing of being dumbies imho makes one in large part a pot calling a kettle black.

And yet again I deny that I am saying everyone who believes is stupid. If that were so then I would have to call my parents stupid. They believe. But they do not BLINDLY believe. They have studied, and modified their beliefs to more closely conform to reality. I still think they are wrong, but I don't think they are stupid. Just as I don't believe you, or leo9, or so many others who have really learned of their faith, are stupid. I do think you are wrong, but not stupid. And I'm just as sure that you think I am wrong. And hopefully NOT stupid.

Most atheists, and I place myself among them, are not interested in destroying people's faith. They are only interested in preventing those people from infiltrating those faiths into our governments, schools, and work places. They are interested in being just as respected for their NON-beliefs as those believers want to be respected FOR their beliefs. They want a person who has been properly elected to be able to fill the office he was elected to fill without having to go to court because he happens to be an atheist. They want to be able to advertise atheist groups and meetings, just as churches advertise their meetings, without having to go to court to force businesses to place those advertisements. In short, we want to be treated as equals in society, without having to bow our heads and pray at the beginning of every activity. We want theists to keep faith in their hearts and religion in their churches, where it belongs.