The Myth of Increasing Violence

[denuseri]

[QUOTE=thir;922018]Well, this 'narrow view' was in fact the topic of this thread, remember ;-)

Not from my perspective, not when his presentation is addressing wide sweeping subjects like overall violence levels etc.



So, I read this as when times are good, and we can afford to relax and know our neighbours and experiment socially, then we are less inclined towards violence.
I agree with that, absolutely

Then, when times chance, so does this. I agree with that too, which is why I do not agree in a steady curve. Things do change.

Yep, but where knowledge of what worked so good before isnt lost, once times allow for things to be prosperous again the population having evolved from the previous experience as a "social animal with a group mentality" also changes, hence why violence levels are decreasing when properisty allows more and more. In other words, human beings in general are also changing on a gradual curve (evolution) and we retain those things that benifited us where possible too.

The other reason I do not agree with it is that I don't think that we sort of represent the pinnacle of human developement. There is no straight line there either, I think we are what we are, and various parts of what we are will be expressed according to circumstances. My guess is that we have had cultures and civilisations better than the ones we have now, as well as worse. And so the curve of violence will fluxuate.

You could describe it as like being the branches of a tree, but being trapped here on the same island in space for the time being we will eventually start to recombinate back unto ourselves. So in many ways we, becuase of our very presence here at this moment in time, are much more advanced than many of our predessesors in so far as what we know with certiantly about them (alien origens for humanity theories aside of course).




I agree, and so it cannot be a steady down wards curve.

Oh its capable of going into a full relapse if situations develope that somehow make violence more productive than cooperation and tolereance ever come back into existance for any extensive period of time.



The discussion was about his lecture, to, as I understand it, what you call laymen.

However, his peer group, if I understand you correctly, are in agreement that the curve of violence drops and rises with circumstances?

Yes, and that overall it has a tendency to drop each time a new level of prosperity is reached that exceeds its predessesors. At least thats what the data shows us, its an exponetial curve too, just like technological progrsssions. So we should start to see (as evidenced by modern views changing about female rights in the past 100 years) a much more rapid series of changes coming in the next couple hundered years if we can maintain this current hieght long enough. Especially as we continue to develope and improve upon mind to technology intregration technology that will allow us to communicate more effectively with each other and perhaps one day reach a collective "consensus" of individual thoughts.

Though it does not say how, that is, if it goes up with civilisations, as in wars, or down, as in less crime?

So long as the human brain sees violence as a potential successfull solution to its problems it will seek that solution when it believes all over solutions will fail or the benifit there of is preceived to exceed the consensquences.

Its Why Hawkins and others think that if aliens come knocking on our door the tech and culture difference will be so great that we will be in the same boat the indians were when the conquestidors came a knocking on the "new world".



Sorry again about the confusion. But the point is, that his starting graf is not valid.

[quote]

I dont know what you mean at all about a starting graf?



But Denuseri, I have to go with the text I have! He simply does not even try to make a case for anything except laws. And rightly too, I do not see how anyone can make a claim of counting or assessing deaths by crime or wars in all antique civilisations.

Its not all that difficult now that we have computers that can do complex fractal equations rapidly and such a wide array of archeological data collected.




His contemporaries? Do you mean that later ideas are different? In what way?

As humanity becomes more advanced, so too does our ability to understand things. If we tried to oh say pluck someone from history and have a discussion with them, we would be quite shocked at the differences in their reasoning capabilities and our own when it comes to these kinds of discussions depending upon just when and where in hisotry we plucked them from of course.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe his contemporaries are psychologist and philosophers, not historians or anthropologists. If so, their theories must by and large be based on ideas, more than historical knowlegde?

Not anymore, its all moving too cross disiplinarian approaches in these types of study. The way we do science is changing too...on a curve even.




The key words being 'as long as'. As you said, civilizations rise and fall, 101 of civilizations. SP thinks we are in an downward curve at the moment - I cannot see it that way. To me the world is a place of many kinds of societies and ideas levels of tech, and so must violence be. The good part of that is that we can continue to exchange ideas with each other, and all learn.

Ahh but see, here is where we differ in our thinking, when humans learn violence doesnt get as good a result as cooporation does, we have less of a reasoned nessecity to resort too it as a solution as a by product of human social evolution.



I am sorry, I did not understand that at all. Could you explain?

I explained that way back up in the begining, though perhaops not in enough detail and with too much sophistry becuase I personally dislike their hypocracy...the latest form of the "rebellion against technological progrssion movements in the academic world took the form of a newage pc movement that evolved mostly from wishful thinking hippie commune types that tried to propogate a return to huntergatherer/low level agricultural ways of living as being what was the most peacful and socially desierable of ways of life who was running on misguilded assumptions due to their viewing things subjectively through rose colored contemporary glasses.

They are ussually the first ones to gripe about the amish and others like them though even though they promote a world view where we would all end up living just like them, but becuase the amish have a strongly organized religious approach that didnt fit with their own world views they get bent about them in paticular.

They cuased a lot of misconseptions in the academic world that have for the most part been laid bare by historians and other peers in science due to cross disiplinary methiods of reaserch. (most of them were sociologists and anthropoligists who grew up with the whole hippie movement) that still liked to cling to a narrow, internal approach to their own field of study of local modernized tribal societies).