Number of UK women convicted of domestic abuse doubles

[thir]

Your assuming that when one is physically injured by another that a mental injury is not also included?

That was my thought also. You may have a mental injury without a physical one, but I cannot see how it can be the other way around.

[denuseri]

Precicely my point Thorne...I mean we are speaking about domestic abuse and viloent crime here right..not breaking a nail or getting a skinned knee.

[MMI]

Precicely my point Thorne...I mean we are speaking about domestic abuse and viloent crime here right..not breaking a nail or getting a skinned knee.

I think we are talking about abuse of men by women, generally, and at this point in particular, whether women use mental abuse in preference to physical abuse in contrast with men who would tend to abuse a woman physically.

The suggestion that mental injury always accompanies physical injury in cases of domestic abuse seems to be an attempt to lessen the seriousness of these crimes by women by elevating the crimes of men (ie, male abusers cause a double injury, female abusers only one).

We were also considering whether a female abuser would take advantage of her sex to avoid punishment by putting the blame on her victim.

[thir]

I think we are talking about abuse of men by women, generally, and at this point in particular, whether women use mental abuse in preference to physical abuse in contrast with men who would tend to abuse a woman physically.

I still do not think so - one dead a day...

Of course it all depends on how you define mental abuse. Would you like to take a go at that? it might clarify things.

The suggestion that mental injury always accompanies physical injury in cases of domestic abuse seems to be an attempt to lessen the seriousness of these crimes by women by elevating the crimes of men (ie, male abusers cause a double injury, female abusers only one).

With all due respect, that sounds weird. You cannot deny that being hit by a partner or parent will not leave scars.
It is not a competition.

We were also considering whether a female abuser would take advantage of her sex to avoid punishment by putting the blame on her victim.

And that is a theory with so far nothing to back it up, unless you have personal or near-personal experience.

'women' are not like this, and 'men' are not like that. We are individuals.

[MMI]

I still do not think so - one dead a day...

If one dead man a day, then three or four dead women a day. Men are more physically violent.

Of course it all depends on how you define mental abuse. Would you like to take a go at that? it might clarify things.

Why do I feel I'm being patronised? Ah! You're trying to put me in my place verbally.

But I'll have a go. Forgive me if I explain it badly. Abuse, whether physical or mental is about control. Women (who learn to express themselves verbally, and "use their head) can easily diminish a man by commenting on the size of his penis or refusing to argue with someone so ill-equipped to do so. I have witnessed such exchanges in different circumstances, and have seen males (deservedly) driven away pursued by hoots of derision by females; but if women use these methods to deter unwanted advances, then so, too, will a manipulative, controlling, woman who wants to keep her partner under her thumb.

She might deny him sex and jeer at him for his inability to satisfy her. Worse, she might take other lovers and flaunt her escapades in front of him. She might "show him up" by embarrasing him in front of his boss, or friends, family, or children ... anything she thinks will keep her in control.

You don't think a female abuser would try to avoid punishment by blaming her victim, knowing she is more likely to be believed than he is? I've no evidence, but I'm afraid I do.

With all due respect, that sounds weird. You cannot deny that being hit by a partner or parent will not leave scars.
It is not a competition.

.

You feel men are now competing to be the most victimised? No. Men are asking that they not be automatically blamed unless and until it is shown they are at fault. And this goes beyond the question of domestic abuse.

women' are not like this, and 'men' are not like that. We are individuals.

Not so. There are definite male tendencies and definite female tendencies. And not all female tendencies are nice ones.

[thir]

Quote Originally Posted by thir View Post
Of course it all depends on how you define mental abuse. Would you like to take a go at that? it might clarify things.

Why do I feel I'm being patronised? Ah! You're trying to put me in my place verbally.

Please tell me you are joking!

But I'll have a go. Forgive me if I explain it badly. Abuse, whether physical or mental is about control.

Hm. I am not so sure that it is neccesarily always so. I think some people simply really do loose their temper
or are simply just jerks. (M/K) I do not think it is always premeditated.

Women (who learn to express themselves verbally, and "use their head)

But what about all the males who live on their verbal skills, like sales persons, politicians and so on? Authors?

can easily diminish a man by commenting on the size of his penis or refusing to argue with someone so ill-equipped to do so.

And so do males often comment on women's looks...why do you think so many women feel that they can only be a succes if they look good?

I have witnessed such exchanges in different circumstances, and have seen males (deservedly) driven away pursued by hoots of derision by females;

Deservedly?..do you mean there was no other way to get rid of them? Because it can be like that. But otherwise I personally think a polite question deserves a polite answer.

but if women use these methods to deter unwanted advances, then so, too, will a manipulative, controlling, woman who wants to keep her partner under her thumb.

Ok maybe I am being slow on the uptake here, but would such behaviour not cause people to run screaming in the opposite direction?

She might deny him sex and jeer at him for his inability to satisfy her. Worse, she might take other lovers and flaunt her escapades in front of him. She might "show him up" by embarrasing him in front of his boss, or friends, family, or children ... anything she thinks will keep her in control.

Ok I admit I cannot see how that keeps that person in control. I would think people would get out of such a relationship as soon as can be - but I do see now what exactly you mean by abuse, thank you. And this is not meant patronizing in any way, I assure you.

You don't think a female abuser would try to avoid punishment by blaming her victim, knowing she is more likely to be believed than he is? I've no evidence, but I'm afraid I do.

Ok, I can only say I hope you are wrong!

Quote Originally Posted by thir View Post
With all due respect, that sounds weird. You cannot deny that being hit by a partner or parent will not leave scars.
It is not a competition.
.

You feel men are now competing to be the most victimised?
No. Men are asking that they not be automatically blamed unless and until it is shown they are at fault. And this goes beyond the question of domestic abuse.

Is that not what we all ask?


Quote Originally Posted by thir View Post
women' are not like this, and 'men' are not like that. We are individuals.
Not so. There are definite male tendencies and definite female tendencies. And not all female tendencies are nice ones.

I cannot see it as so simple, if only because the gender roles are so different from culture to culture.
But of course we are all both good and bad.

If one dead man a day, then three or four dead women a day. Men are more physically violent.



Why do I feel I'm being patronised? Ah! You're trying to put me in my place verbally.

But I'll have a go. Forgive me if I explain it badly. Abuse, whether physical or mental is about control. Women (who learn to express themselves verbally, and "use their head) can easily diminish a man by commenting on the size of his penis or refusing to argue with someone so ill-equipped to do so. I have witnessed such exchanges in different circumstances, and have seen males (deservedly) driven away pursued by hoots of derision by females; but if women use these methods to deter unwanted advances, then so, too, will a manipulative, controlling, woman who wants to keep her partner under her thumb.

She might deny him sex and jeer at him for his inability to satisfy her. Worse, she might take other lovers and flaunt her escapades in front of him. She might "show him up" by embarrasing him in front of his boss, or friends, family, or children ... anything she thinks will keep her in control.

You don't think a female abuser would try to avoid punishment by blaming her victim, knowing she is more likely to be believed than he is? I've no evidence, but I'm afraid I do.




.

You feel men are now competing to be the most victimised? No. Men are asking that they not be automatically blamed unless and until it is shown they are at fault. And this goes beyond the question of domestic abuse.




Not so. There are definite male tendencies and definite female tendencies. And not all female tendencies are nice ones.

[thir]

Quote Originally Posted by thir View Post
Of course it all depends on how you define mental abuse. Would you like to take a go at that? it might clarify things.

Why do I feel I'm being patronised? Ah! You're trying to put me in my place verbally.

Please tell me you are joking!

But I'll have a go. Forgive me if I explain it badly. Abuse, whether physical or mental is about control.

Hm. I am not so sure that it is neccesarily always so. I think some people simply really do loose their temper
or are simply just jerks. (M/K) I do not think it is always premeditated.

Women (who learn to express themselves verbally, and "use their head)

But what about all the males who live on their verbal skills, like sales persons, politicians and so on? Authors?

can easily diminish a man by commenting on the size of his penis or refusing to argue with someone so ill-equipped to do so.

And so do males often comment on women's looks...why do you think so many women feel that they can only be a succes if they look good?

I have witnessed such exchanges in different circumstances, and have seen males (deservedly) driven away pursued by hoots of derision by females;

Deservedly?..do you mean there was no other way to get rid of them? Because it can be like that. But otherwise I personally think a polite question deserves a polite answer.

but if women use these methods to deter unwanted advances, then so, too, will a manipulative, controlling, woman who wants to keep her partner under her thumb.

Ok maybe I am being slow on the uptake here, but would such behaviour not cause people to run screaming in the opposite direction?

She might deny him sex and jeer at him for his inability to satisfy her. Worse, she might take other lovers and flaunt her escapades in front of him. She might "show him up" by embarrasing him in front of his boss, or friends, family, or children ... anything she thinks will keep her in control.

Ok I admit I cannot see how that keeps that person in control. I would think people would get out of such a relationship as soon as can be - but I do see now what exactly you mean by abuse, thank you. And this is not meant patronizing in any way, I assure you.

You don't think a female abuser would try to avoid punishment by blaming her victim, knowing she is more likely to be believed than he is? I've no evidence, but I'm afraid I do.

Ok, I can only say I hope you are wrong!

Quote Originally Posted by thir View Post
With all due respect, that sounds weird. You cannot deny that being hit by a partner or parent will not leave scars.
It is not a competition.
.

You feel men are now competing to be the most victimised?
No. Men are asking that they not be automatically blamed unless and until it is shown they are at fault. And this goes beyond the question of domestic abuse.

Is that not what we all ask?


Quote Originally Posted by thir View Post
women' are not like this, and 'men' are not like that. We are individuals.
Not so. There are definite male tendencies and definite female tendencies. And not all female tendencies are nice ones.

I cannot see it as so simple, if only because the gender roles are so different from culture to culture.
But of course we are all both good and bad.

[IAN 2411]

I would like to point out that domestic abuse against the male is normally phychologicle [yes I have spelt that wrong] and not physical. I would think that a lot of male spouses don't realise it is taking place until it is too late. Why is this thread defending the little woman with the sharp tongue once more???....I could put my finger on two men that are living close to me that are mentaly abused, but I couldn't put my finger on one woman that is being phyically abused. What are the odds of that? I was originally told about them by a woman, [stamping out the, ITS A MANS THING].

Be well IAN 2411

[thir]

I would like to point out that domestic abuse against the male is normally phychologicle [yes I have spelt that wrong] and not physical.

I do not know what you mean about 'normally' - as was said, there is one dead man per day from domestic violence, methinks that's a lot of people!

If you assume that mental violence is happening a lot more than that, then there is something wrong with relationships in general, I'd say. And maybe there is. If you have a power balance based on society backing men and men being stronger and women talking better, and you then take away the society backed power balance and the right to violence, then what is left?

Mutual respect and love seems to be out, according to this. Is that really true?

I would think that a lot of male spouses don't realise it is taking place until it is too late. Why is this thread defending the little woman with the sharp tongue once more???....I could put my finger on two men that are living close to me that are mentaly abused, but I couldn't put my finger on one woman that is being phyically abused. What are the odds of that? I was originally told about them by a woman, [stamping out the, ITS A MANS THING].
Be well IAN 2411

Did not this thread start with males being abused physically?
I also do not see this thread as a competition about who is worst to each other. Lots of women are being beaten in the home, that is a fact. A new fact (if it is new) has now come out, that men are also being beaten - to death. Is there a point in discussing who is the most dead?

As for the sharp tongue you may have a point. Historically that was what you had, as a women. And that is still what you are left with, if you are told to sit, and not run around or use your head for other than language. Please note that this is not an excuse for bad behaviour! There is no excuse for not respecting your mate.

I just happended to see a program about men who felt suppressed by women, in particular about their sharp tongues.

I totally agree that if a man feels his wife or partner does not respect him, he should leave. No good relationship can exist without mutual respect.

But I also feel that maybe men should take in some more virtues than what is traditionally considered masculine. Give yourselves some more space for other things, such as language, art, children, whatever. And you will catch up in the areas where you now feel behind.

[denuseri]

Please take note that my commenets conserning physical/mental abuse were not gender specific.

Nor were they intended to lessen anything...just to point out that in cases like the ones we are speaking off...if physical abuse is inflicted it will surely have mental aguish induced becuase of it.

[MMI]

I think they were gender-specific, even if that was unintentional. It is self-evident that men will use physical abuse more than women will. Therefore, by your argument, they cannot help but inflict double the damage.

[denuseri]

I think...that if I intended my statements to be gender specific...I would have made them clearly referenced as to dealing with only one gender or the other.

[MMI]

I think...that if I intended my statements to be gender specific...I would have made them clearly referenced as to dealing with only one gender or the other.

Forgive me.

I don't believe you did intend your statement to be gender-specific: it just was. While males are supposed to be more violent than females, women are believed to be more emotionally manipulative. Thus to say physical violence is always accompanied by psychological harm, implies males do twice the damage than females who only inflict mental injury.

[IAN 2411]

I do not know what you mean about 'normally' - as was said, there is one dead man per day from domestic violence, methinks that's a lot of people!

If you assume that mental violence is happening a lot more than that, then there is something wrong with relationships in general, I'd say. And maybe there is. If you have a power balance based on society backing men and men being stronger and women talking better, and you then take away the society backed power balance and the right to violence, then what is left?

Mutual respect and love seems to be out, according to this. Is that really true?

I had better explain what I am talking about. When men talk about these things with other workmates etc, they usually say things like: - my wife is getting on my back 24/7, my wife is always nagging me, my wife is always giving me headaches because of her constant nagging. In the end this verbal abuse that a woman [not meaning to be sexist] is so very damn good at, effects his work. The more he lets her get away with the abuse the more she thinks it is a sign of weakness. I know from experience with my first wife that this assault on a man’s mind is tiring and painful. The point is that very few men in this position fight back with physical violence even if the man knows he is far superior in strength. Yes, it is a mixture of values and it gives the mental abuser the wrong impression.

If a wife punches a man in an argument on the arm very little is said about it, because in most cases the male through work is built differently. Most shrug it off as part of the argument and nothing more is said about it. The same with a slap around the face, one slap and it will hurt, but on the second most men will catch the hand and again that is as far as it goes. Very few men will talk about these types of physical abuse because to them it is not.

The wife on the other hand if slightly punched on the arm by any man will in most cases inevitably bruise. Within ten minutes the neighbourhood knows and the man is now a wife beater, and even if he accidently bruises her while defending himself, the act is now domestic violence. Yes, the scales are tilted once more because the man very rarely admits that he is the one being physically abused. If he did and was a big strapping builder, what policeman is going to believe him, or for that matter what judge?

Be well IAN 2411

[denuseri]

I dont think we should get hung up on the symatics trying to decide what constitutes abuse and how abuse doesnt have to be physical so much as address the elephant in the room as sugested by the op.

Are women really more violent than we used to be?

Or is it that men have become less violent?

If so why or why not?

[Thorne]

Are women really more violent than we used to be?

Or is it that men have become less violent?

If so why or why not?

I don't think either is true. I think that one of the benefits of the Women's Lib movement has been to empower more of these battered and abused women to come out and file charges against their spouses/boyfriends. There may be more incidents per capita, possibly, because of higher population densities and the resulting stresses. But I wonder if at least some of that isn't counterbalanced by a possible decrease in men who abuse women, if for no other reason than that it's no longer considered 'private'.

On the other foot, though, I think more men who are abused, either physically or emotionally, are also coming out about it, seeing it less and less as a stigma. It's like many other things which were kept behind closed doors in the past. A new, more open, more connected society is kicking these aberrations out into public, and that's a good thing.

[IAN 2411]

Are women really more violent than we used to be?

Or is it that men have become less violent?

If so why or why not?

Good questions but in my opinion women’s nature has not changed, yes we see more of the violence both ways than we did, let’s say thirty years ago. With that comes a greater population so per ten thousand people I would think that the amount of violent women is about the same. But to the individual living thirty years ago would think without reading stats it is on the rise. No doubt when women received their so called independence, freedom to vote and equality there might have been a blip. I say so called because it was given to them by men and it was never a clear victory for the women they received only what they asked for.

Since the stone-age men have that violent streak in them because even priests go to war. Some of the oldest popes lead armies to war and they were not all on religious grounds. Violence is the last resort of all men if reasoning fails even the mildest of men kill.

Be well IAN 2411

[MMI]

If we return to the original post, we see

Figures obtained from the [English] Crown Prosecution Service showed that almost 4,000 women were successfully prosecuted in the past year, compared with 1,500 women in 2005, a 169% increase.

Actually, I make it a 267% increase.

The post continues,

Some experts say it is a worrying sign of the growing culture of violence among women, while others believe that men are now more likely to report that they have been beaten up by their wives and girlfriends than in previous years.

Now I don't believe for one second that violence by women has increased all of a sudden by so much. It might have increased a bit, but I believe it has always been there, hidden, ignored, denied.

I notice that some people think there is a growing culture of violence among women, but I'm not persuaded. I don't think domestic abuse is part of any culture but I do believe attitudes have changed so that men can begin to admit they are victims, and people are more prepared now than they were to admit women can commit acts of abuse. As the Chief Constable says (same post), "We know about more cases now because of better responses from police, multi-agencies and the voluntary sector and a shift in the societal view of the crime,"

The next question is, what is society going to do about it?

[IAN 2411]

[B]Women May Get Right To Vet Internet Dates UK[/B]

Women could be allowed to find out if their partners have a history of violence under new proposals being considered by the Government.

A campaign for what has been dubbed Clare's Law will be launched on Monday with the support of police chiefs and the Government's Victims Commissioner, Louise Casey.

The proposal comes amid concerns that women are increasingly meeting men via the internet and have little or no knowledge of their pasts.

It is backed by the father of Clare Wood, who was murdered in 2009 by a man she met through Facebook.

She was unaware that her killer, George Appleton, had a record of domestic violence against previous partners.

Appleton killed Ms Wood and set her body on fire before hanging himself.

According to the Mail On Sunday, which disclosed the proposal, Home Secretary Theresa May has indicated in a letter that she is considering the idea.

Former Home Office minister Hazel Blears is leading the campaign for the law change and will be joined by Ms Wood's father, Michael Brown, and Brian Moore from the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) for its launch.

Ms Blears said: "Clare's tragic death shows how vulnerable women aren't always protected under the current law."

And Louise Casey said the proposal had her "full support".

"This seems common sense to me. Our priority should not be protecting a perpetrator's privacy at the expense of costing a woman's life," she said.

However, Tory MP Robert Buckland, a member of the Commons Justice Committee, warned there would have to be "strict controls" on such a system.

He told Sky News: "My concern is that we don't end up with a system that could allow people carte blanche to turn up at the police station and go on some sort of fishing expedition to find out the background of a person they may or may not want to go out with."
.................................................. ..

Once again the cards are stacked the side of the female...the message this sends out is.... Women don’t kill, maim or abuse but men do.

Be well IAN 2411