Who Really Has the Power in a DS Relationship?

[Jadetiger]

I agree, and I apologize for occasionally losing site of the 'big picture.' I don't like to nitpick. I do like to debate, though. I guess sometimes my enjoyment of a challenging game of wits overwhelms my sense of better judgement.

I also agree that, as long as the relationship works for the people involved, then whatever those people choose to do is clearly the right thing. Just as long as it's all safe and legal and such.

I find these discussions extremely helpful. I am new to the DBSM world and hearing everyone's view point is how I learn. I will admit Eraser's view did shake me up a bit, but it also made me think about the needs of a Dom. I find your views helpful and I really appreciated the time you spend discussing these issues with us.

I also have to thank Slavelucy for making it simple and easy to understand.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Whilst agreeing, surely if the person could take the power back, at any given time (with a safeword or whatever) then it remains with them....hmmm, but *thinks* (i'm thinking aloud here, feel free to ignore me), at the same time, i DO see what you mean when you say it's a complete contradiction to say the power is retained by the person giving it...*ponders*. i think the final conclusion, to me personally, and based on what i said much earlier on in this thread, is that the submissive is giving the dominant a huge element of autonomy and trust....in doing so, he/she is inherantly transferring a lot of 'ground level' power in terms of what the dominant can do with him/her on a physical and mental level...but some underlying power to continue giving up that power must logically lie with the submissive.

Good point. Even though you took your time getting to it.

[slavelucy]

Good point.

Thanks. i mean it. Coming from you, that's high praise indeed.

And as for taking my time, well sure i did, i'm lucy, the proof of the point is all in the procrastination.

lucy said it best with her comment that "the sub has the power to say where it doesn't go...the dom, from there, says where it does go." That pretty accurately sums it up IMO.

Aw, thanks e.b, glad it made sense to someone!

sl

[BDSM_Tourguide]

On a daily we are manipulated, by co-workers, media and marketing, perspective commentary’s of news person’s and religious leaders. Making a collective statement like that resolves the world into one of total abuse.

You have brought up some interesting points in your rebuttal. However, on a few issues, I disgaree very strongly.

Certainly, we are, as a species, manipulated by our government, our television, our music, our video games, etc. However, there is a distinct difference in someone manipulating a person subtely to make a sale or to put a product in that person's home and a person being manipulated into thinking they are lower than dirt, or that they are not allowed a voice, or that they do not have control over themselves and their safety, or that they are not free to leave a relationship. That is abuse. Sugar-coat it how you like, but it doesn't change the fact that it is psychological abuse through manipulation to damage a person's self-esteem and to make them believe they must set aside their own sense of self in deferrence to another's.

Well we have all heard the phrase ‘give and take’. When someone gives you something like the gift of submission, then you TAKE the gift in turn taking that control. Which brings up my argument to the statement.

I do not believe submission is a gift. It is certainly not a thing for me to take from someone else. Someone may submit to me, but I am not taking their submission from them.

In the same manner, I may wish to dominate someone, but I will not force my dominance on that person. It might be mine to give, but giving my 'gift' of dominance to someone that does not want is abusive.

This is another reason the submissive has the ultimate power in the relationship. The submissive chooses and submits to a dominant, the dominant does not simply choose a submissive, snap a collar on her neck, and call her his.

The nature D/s relationship involves caring, understanding, manipulation, force, pain, pleasure and many many more things that I won’t site specifically. But it does involve all of them.

The nature of the DS relationship may involve many of those things, as long as they are consensual things and are done in ways that are positive for both parties. It still falls to the submissive to select and elect the options she wishes to choose. If a submissive wishes to be manipulated, it's her choice; it's not a choice I, personally, would ever agree with, but it's still her choice to make.

But that’s really where the ‘negotiations’ end, if on the check list I see an activity that I enjoy doing or something I know I do often and is set as a limit, that’s the end of the D\s relationship in anything other then casual friendship. For me there isn’t much ‘negotiations’ rather then me coming straight out and saying ‘I’m gonna do this that and this other things take it or leave it.’

You are, of course, allowed to establish your relationshps and run them as you choose. No one can dispute that. However, in a give and take relationship, when one person is resolute in their stances (i.e. I’m gonna do this that and this other things take it or leave it.’), then that person really isn't giving very much, are they?

In my view, a person is far more important than a limit. Besides, limits change over time. My wife has been unable to have anal sex since she gave birth to our daughter. I very much enjoy anal sex. However, it is now a hard limit for her. By the reasoning presented here, I should now leave my wife and my daughter because she can no longer offer me that satisfaction.

I find that to be completely pompous, uncaring, and disgusting. It is for her to set her limits and for me to respect them. She has that power.

This for me is MAJOR pet peeve and something I utterly hate, this concept that the submissive can just end a scene because she doesn’t like what’s going on. To this destroys the foundation of the relationship... To me a safeword is to be used if the submissive is being DAMAGED, not if she’s uncomfortable, or not if this hurts a little to much, or goodness sakes that last strike wrapped and stung a little more then usual.

I agree with this. In the same way a dominant should not manipulate a submissive, a submissive should not manipulate a dominant by taking something that was designed for her own safety and turning it into a frivolous abuse of her power.

I think a safe word should only be used if the submissive is experiencing unsafe amounts of pain, if she has a real problem during a scene, or if she has some kind of sudden emergency. For instance, a submissive experiencing a sudden bout of diarrhea while she's tied down and being flogged should be allowed to safe word out of the scene and gotten to the toilet as quickly as possible before she makes a real mess of the bed. The scene can always progress afterward, but her need should be attended to before it does.

Again, a submissive power thing.

That is the appropriate to use a safeword, but cause the submissive is being damaged and because of her position there is no way the Dom could be aware of it. The other times a safe word is used because the submissive isn’t enjoying something or doesn’t like the activity to me is just silly.

I agree, as before.

The submissive is there to serve my desires not her own.

I disagree. The submissive is there because she enjoys what you are doing to her. Or at least she should be. Therefore, her desires are being served just as much as yours.

The opposite extremity of this same type of activity is the constant prattling of a ‘dom’ and the ‘are you okay with this? Is this good for you? Are you enjoying this?’ to me is utter nonsense. The Dominant should have a good understanding of the person he is playing with and if he doesn’t know the person well enough to know if there not ‘okay with this’ then they shouldn’t be sceneing with them. I’m not here to cater to the submissive’s desires she and I are here to cater to mine.

I have been in a relationship with my wife for over five years, but I still ask her if she's okay during a scene. I'd say I know her fairly well. It is not the person that needs to be known, it's the scene. Every scene is different. You may whip someone a thousand times, but one time the whip might hit a certain part and cause a not-so-good kind of pain. The submissive might need a second to recover from that, and should be given that opportunity. However, if the dominant is not checking the submissive's status when something like this arises, then he is not being responsible to her.

Many examples of this type of thing exist. It is the dominant's responsibility to run the scene. It is also his responsibility to make sure the scene and the people in it are safe. That whole SSC thing again.

This not misinformation, this is the foundation of what a deep D\s relationship is suppose to be hence why it’s called Dominance and submission and not ‘make me do these things I like’. Once person willing and wantonly giving themselves to someone and is owned. They have given the Dominant themselves to enjoy as they wish. The responsibility of the Dominant to do that in a manner that doesn’t damage the person. Will the Dominant at some point violate her civil rights? I am rather sure of it. Will the Dominant do things that are scary and painful and uncomfortable for the person, well hopefully.

I agree that the dominant should do things to not damage the submissive. And by that, I mean mentally, emotionally, and physically damage.

However, in the context of the original article, the point of the paragraph was to allude to the fact that control is not the dominant's to take; it is, rather, for the submissive to give.

The concept that power is retained by the person giving it up is a contradiction in and of itself. The power and the control was given willingly and with understanding, at that point the power is gone, the only power left is to end the relationship which does not give the person ‘power’ over the relationship. The Dominant has the power to end the relationship as well.

Indeed, the dominant may choose to end the relationship. That is his choice. Just as the choice for the submissive to end the relationship should be hers as well. Many submissives believe that they do not have the choice to even walk away from the relationship if it becomes something it should not be. They don't realize that they have that power.

And if they have the power at the end of the relationship, then they have had it all along. There is no contradiction. The power is the submissive's to give, to hold, and to take back.

Isn’t a submissive, a masochist yes, but far from a submissive they’re the dominant and the one hold the whip is the submissive.

I agree here, again, but this has already been covered previously. A submissive should not be allowed to manipulate a situation any more than a dominant should.

However, submissives should realize that they do hold the final word in the DS relationship. They don't have to give up their sense of security and safety.

[emmacd]

I agree with this entirely, It was as a sub that i learned so much about compassion and love. As Dom I was able to apply this very well. I found that I was in controll of limits from the sub. That puts it in the world of trust. Subs will convey messages to you what they want and you can read their eyes and their tenderness. You have to have a understanding at all times on what you feel and what the sub does jointly. I know it sounds corny but it is true. Emmacd

The nature of the DS relationship is one of power exchange, but what does power exchanged mean? Who are the people and who is really giving, taking, and holding the power?

Many dominants will answer this question and say that the dominant is the one in the position of power in the DS relationship. The dominant holds the control in the relationship and, therefore, must be the one with the power. That is, in fact, one myth that should be dispelled quickly. The dominant partner does not control the relationship. It is not the dominant’s position to assume, take, or seize control of anything. The dominant may set rules, may enforce discipline, and may suggest activities and assignments, but the knowledgeable dominant never takes control. It’s not his to take anyway. Taking control from a person is a form of manipulation and is, therefore, abuse. Since the DS relationship should be one of caring and understanding, and not one of manipulation and force, the taking away of control is contrary to the nature of that relationship.

If the dominant is the one that sets the rules, enforces the discipline, and suggests activities and assignments, then that indicates he is the one with the power, though, right? Not exactly. The dominant does all these things, but he does them in cooperation with the submissive. In most DS relationships, the dominant and submissive partners negotiate a set of rules, a set of limits, what disciplinary actions will be used, and the nature of the assignments and activities given by the dominant to the submissive. The submissive is allowed to say no to anything she feels uncomfortable doing, and should be allowed to set limits based on her comfort. The entire process is one of compromise. Each partner in the relationship must give some and they must take some from the other partner. Limits must be respected, as should the rules once they are negotiated.

The true holder of the actual power in the DS relationship is the submissive. This truth shocks a lot of dominants and even more submissives, because this is not the way people tend to commonly think of DS relationships. Rest assured, though, the power in the relationship rests with the submissive. In a DS relationship, the submissive gives up her control to the dominant; he does not take it from her. It is not his to take, and never will be his unless she gives it to him. The submissive does not give her power away as a gift, however, because she expects things in return for it; things like trust, honesty, safety, and communication. If her dominant fails to provide her with these things, then she is free to take back her control and move on to someone that will provide her with these things.

Other things, too, indicate that the submissive holds the true power in the DS relationship. For instance, a submissive may set her own limits. She cannot be forced to do anything she says no to doing. Any dominant that persists in coercing a submissive into performing an activity that is on her list of limits ceases being a dominant at that moment and becomes an abuser, because he has stopped respecting her right to be happy and her expectations of safety and trust. A submissive also has the right to negotiate a set of rules, with the dominant, that is acceptable for her. The rules should be a compromise, but in instances where a rule may violate the submissive’s safety, limits, or sense of security, then the benefit of the doubt should go to the submissive and her wished respected. Finally, and most importantly, the submissive may end any scene with her safe word. Upon utterance of the safe word, a scene stops immediately, any corporal punishment, bondage, humiliation, etc. stops at once. The partners may discuss the reason the safe word was used and may choose to resume the scene once the submissive is made more comfortable with whatever situation caused her to use her safe word, but the scene should not be continued once the safe word has been spoken.

The most important thing to remember, though, is that the submissive holds the real power in the relationship, because she chooses to give up her control of herself and she allows her dominant partner to have that control with the understanding that she will be respected by the dominant, as will her safety, her trust, and her security. She always has the right to leave the relationship if any of those details are ignored or are not respected. And she always has the right to take back her control whenever she chooses.

The true dynamic of the DS relationship is not one that is often considered by many people, because many assume that the dominant is in control over the submissive and that the submissive gives up her freedom with the understanding that she will do as the dominant tells her to do. That is not the true nature of power exchange; that is misinformation.

[Barton]

Who has the power???

The sub, the sub, always the sub.

Control has to be given. You cannot take it. If the sub does not give over their control then what is the point.