Removing underage stories

[ghostsblood]

Consider for a moment "Amercian Psycho".

In my eyes it is the perfect example of neo-litterature providing a view of such attrocities (rape, murder, rape-murder, murder-rape etc) from the protagonists POV.

Is it still legal over there?

I mention it to cover a few points here. Firstly: It provides a character who performs acts of depravity that would eclipse most stories here, and while doing so Ellis puts us in his mind and manages to draw us onto his side. This is not an easy thing to do considering the depths which he goes to brutalise his victims.

Also, despite the sexual nature of his attrocities, it is not a sexually charged novel, it is simply a thriller/horror (To some with a finer appreciation; a deeply disturbed black-comedy). Which for my 2cents is what I write, I have been quite obviously inspired by Ellis's style, one day I might actually be able to provide a story line to go with my scenes.

As for "rape isn't murder" of course it isn't. But they are the same sides of different' die. On one hand you have sexual abuse which starts with wolf whistles and peaks at rape. On the other hand we have violence which starts with name calling and ends with murder. Both are crimes at the top of theire respective food chains and both are a total destruction of the victims liberties.

To write about either subject is much the same. To provide a protagonist/s that the reader empathises with, despite their personal feelings, is a skill that should be appreciated not punished. To provide children as the victims is more a sign of the times than anything else... there is no end to the fiction on paper and on TV that provide acts of sexual violence against adults; so much so that it has lost its edge, it has become blase, so we must push it further to achive the gut wrenching horror that American Psycho gave in spades.

To make a point, Americal Psycho comes wrapped in plastic with a big ol' R printed on it (over here it does anyway). Why can't every story with graffic sexual violence get the same treatment? Who (other than christians) wakes up and decides it is their civic duty to force their own beliefs on someone else; truly a perversion of personal liberties.

[ghostsblood]

Consider for a moment "Amercian Psycho".

In my eyes it is the perfect example of neo-litterature providing a view of such attrocities (rape, murder, rape-murder, murder-rape etc) from the protagonists POV.

Is it still legal over there?

I mention it to cover a few points here. Firstly: It provides a character who performs acts of depravity that would eclipse most stories here, and while doing so Ellis puts us in his mind and manages to draw us onto his side. This is not an easy thing to do considering the depths which he goes to brutalise his victims.

Also, despite the sexual nature of his attrocities, it is not a sexually charged novel, it is simply a thriller/horror (To some with a finer appreciation; a deeply disturbed black-comedy). Which for my 2cents is what I write, I have been quite obviously inspired by Ellis's style, one day I might actually be able to provide a story line to go with my scenes.

As for "rape isn't murder" of course it isn't. But they are the same sides of different' die. On one hand you have sexual abuse which starts with wolf whistles and peaks at rape. On the other hand we have violence which starts with name calling and ends with murder. Both are crimes at the top of theire respective food chains and both are a total destruction of the victims liberties.

To write about either subject is much the same. To provide a protagonist/s that the reader empathises with, despite their personal feelings, is a skill that should be appreciated not punished. To provide children as the victims is more a sign of the times than anything else... there is no end to the fiction on paper and on TV that provide acts of sexual violence against adults; so much so that it has lost its edge, it has become blase, so we must push it further to achive the gut wrenching horror that American Psycho gave in spades.

To make a point, Americal Psycho comes wrapped in plastic with a big ol' R printed on it (over here it does anyway). Why can't every story with graffic sexual violence get the same treatment? Who (other than christians) wakes up and decides it is their civic duty to force their own beliefs on someone else; this truly a perversion of personal liberties.

[Spitman]

I personally think that the word "spit" is gross. I can only imagine the things that are dragged up and "spit" out on our clean sidewalks and beaches. I think "spitting" should be banned everywhere in our society as a filthy repulsive act.

Then for a person to be called "spitman" should be castrated and have his balls hung from the lightpost to serve as a warning to all others.

This is what happens when you start arbitrarily censoring literature because "you" don't happen to like it. Who is to decide what is "right" or "wrong"? A person called "spitman", maybe Adolf Hitler or your neighbor priest (who happens to be molesting your son on Saturday). Or maybe your politician, you know the one, the one that just confessed to taking $4 million in bribes, or bribes from the strip club owners from Las Vegas. or the mayor that was caught smoking crack. All of them upstanding people that are more than willing to tell you what not to read or write.

Powerone

Well, Powerone, I don't think I'll comment on your nick. It is rather more to the point that you criticised mine (not that you understood it), rather than coming up with any sensible argument based on what I actually said. That says more about your belief in your own capacity to dominate, than your ability to focus on what this is really all about. I suggest that you don't give up your day job and go into politics.

I am opposed to irrational censorship based on references to the age of fictional characters in creative work, because it ignores other descriptive terms that give more of a clue to the intentions of the author, but also because it ignores the fact that references to the ages of characters can only be given any interpretation based on their context. If you had bothered to read what I said, that should have been very clear from the argument, which was supported by three good examples.

If a website to which I contribute my own creative work has a policy on the kind of material that is accepted, I see that as a part of my contract with the owners of the website, and I am not being unreasonable if I complain when it appears that this policy has not been implemented, especially if that means that I may be legally in jeopardy by association.

In this case I have not complained. It is the new owner of the site who found that the policy was previously not enforced properly, and intends to rectify this, and I gave my support. External censorship by governments does not come into it. This is a matter of free choice on the part of the website owner, who is not charging for access to the Library, is entitled to choose what kind of material the site will be allowed to contain, and is also entitled to be secured from any legal risk that might arise if the stated policy is not enforced. I think we can have a great deal of freedom on this website, if we don't push our luck.

I was arguing that there might be a case for excluding some material on different grounds from specific references to age, and that if this was done, many authors might actually have more freedom in here. Unfortunately Powerone has 35 stories in the Library, which seem to focus mainly on the rape and torture of unwilling female victims, who are often clearly underage, on the basis of descriptive detail other than the specific mention of age. So if my suggestions were implemented, a lot of his stories might have to go.

As a writer of some pretty extreme fantasy material of my own, I am hardly in a position to argue in favour of the kind of censorship religious zealots would prefer to see. There is a lot of unique creative writing in this library. It covers a spectrum of sexual preferences, fetishes and fantasies, and some of it is very good indeed, in my opinion.

Of course different people vary in their view of what makes a scene the ultimate erotic fantasy. Sexual orientation is far more than a matter of gender identity. But why should so many of us lose what, as adults, we regard as a wonderful erotic resource, just because a few people want to contribute stories about beating up and raping kids!

[ghostsblood]

Rape is illegal; regardless of the victims age. Murder is illegal, regardless of the victims age; yet crime novels and horror stories abound. Whats the difference? Appart from us being amature writers?


=^_^=

[Blake]

well if you look at it that way, it's just that society is afraid of sex, and gives off a 'ok' degree of what sex is. Anything outside of that is 'satan' or.. er, whatever term they are using now.

But you can't compare rape and murder in my opinon, they're too different. Every crime isn't under the definition of a crime. Crimes is a category lumping together aspects that have similar qualities. But in truth, they hold nothing of the same, just a general term of violation or something along those lines. Assault of the 'life' of a person. But that assault comes in different ways, physcological damages are different. I donno, the added fear from society of sex adds to the intensity to sex crimes. For murder, they slip into that category themselves constantly, and they make it very vauge. Execution, war, or whatever. Tools of society, and they use killing, so they're more used to it. So, we are more used tt, and it is accepted more as a form of 'expression' in pieces of work(fictional). I mean, i figure society doesnt even classify us as animals really. We fuck, and we do it however we do it, but they'd want us to follow a system to get to having sex. Heavy dating, getting to know the person for X amount of Time, Marriage, all the drawn pathways they throw out, which does jack all for most people I figure who actually accept who they are, but not doing what they set out for us starts the iffy process. And the further down you go with adding aspects to it, pain,(in itself, society considers it bad(atleast, in a broad term, and refuses to see the applicational aspects of it)) control,(want a democractc sex life ... or something, i donno), being absolutly human(cant do that, they have a weird definition of what a human is, and what life is, so that just screws up that the infiinity we hold, and they throw definitions). I donno.

Sigh, i could rip that apart myself.. Cause murder isn't murder. There are varying degrees of murder. Depths. I suppose, society is more familiar with the depths of pain + murder, as opposed to pain + sex, or just sex in general. They pretend to be something in society, and sex lets you out, so i figure, they make it indecent to do it, so they can lie to themselves that they are perfection, and people who truly accept life as an infinite experience of depth, well, become outcasts. i always thought the internet would be a safe haven, but .. yeah.

A suit man is proper, defined, specific, percise, and doesn't take depth risks. Sex is a depth, if it's explored properly without that nasty cloud hesitation that's beaten in. (I mean they cattle us to have sex at X age, instead of letting the natural life desires play out. And then, what is indecent, hell, even anal sex is 'err'. I mean, they screw with the basics and claiming them to be indecent, applications of instruments and other forms of sensations to sex, (outside the boarders of bubble baths and calm loving aspects) are evil)

I donno. Rape is, sex + pain + violation + control + destruction + 'self loss' in alot of cases. Society kinda considers all to be bad. But, society doesn't understand that all bad things, are not bad, it's only the way they are being used that makes them bad. Those feelings and sensations can take you to places inside yourself and unlock depths you've never seen. Self loss in itself can lead to a greater understanding of yourself and life as you regain to find who you are, sheding away the shit that you were molded with. Destruction can let you feel shear removal of all your defenses, your pride, your dignity, and let you feel something you couldn't normally feel. Ramble.. you can see things from different perspectives.

heh, i suppose though just the reading of someone else being raped against their will 100% is a turn on in itself. Seeing someone literally being ripped from a world and used, abused, destroyed, and made to serve is a power lust that we can't find to well in society itself. (or.. it's just hot and that's that?) Whatever your fancy for it, it's all text. It's all written mind expressions of desires that many hold. Sure, it gives details and ideas into words that are just kept in lurking feelings you never feel possibly(for some), and when it moves to words it can move to action. But that's a choice. It's not the writing that's doing that, it's the person. If the person deciedes to truly rape someone because of reading something revolving around rape, well that's the persons fault, not the writing. (I mean a pure rape, not a consentual rape)
Society tries to protect by keeping truths away from us. Well... ok sure.. good idea, if you enjoy living in a life of limits, set by someone who probably lives in a life of no limits.

They can never do it directly, they start with small direct things. Children are always a great place to start. In my opinon, a child should not have access to the internet. If they do, it's up to the PARENTS to monitor their children. Someone brought up a good point, schools do research, and if they type in 'slaves' and it brings up bdsm, well there's that. Well... then the educational system needs to create a better filtration system. Children are the greatest tools used. Fuck the children, since when did a child become more than an adult? we're all the same, except for the weakness and innocence factors. Well.. if the internet is that bad of a place, get more books and restrict the internet to the children. Don't restrict expression to our entire race.

Sigh, chaos post.



Yeah... random opinons. i dont belong in this world.

[Rabbit1]

I have talked to Tiger About this matter ---and we have sort of a compromise to this issue---we will no longer accept stories with subject under the age of 13----in other words no Preteen stories

and we will only remove those stories with subjects under 13--- this is one of the reasons I had not started removing or rejecting stories---but as of now no under 13 stories will be published and removal will start soon

This is firm---you can post your opinions ---but it will change nothing

[ghostsblood]

I must congratulate both of you for comming to a reasonable compromise.

Thank you

[Spitman]

I am happy about a more realistic age limit that excludes preteens. I have no personal problem with material that involves consensual teenage activity of any kind, or the mention of uninvolved preteen characters. I only have a problem with material that involves non-consensual, gratuitous sexual or other violence against preteen characters.

I hope that in the application of the stated policy, judgments will be based also on the description of the characters and not just the stated age, and material should be assessed on that basis even if no specific age is mentioned.

[Rabbit1]

I am happy about a more realistic age limit that excludes preteens. I have no personal problem with material that involves consensual teenage activity of any kind, or the mention of uninvolved preteen characters. I only have a problem with material that involves non-consensual, gratuitous sexual or other violence against preteen characters.

I hope that in the application of the stated policy, judgments will be based also on the description of the characters and not just the stated age, and material should be assessed on that basis even if no specific age is mentioned.

I will have to be the judge of the stories ----and my judgement will be based on the black and white issue ---no stories of any preteen nature will be published--forced or other wise---now that you have brought up the question of non specific age mentioned ---those will be judged on a case by case basis---like if the story says he picked her out of her crib----then I would consider that clearly preteen---but if the story says he ripped the clothes off the young girl---unless there is something else in the story that leeds me to believe it was a preteen then I would publish that story.

now I am human and I may make a mistake ---but if I error ---I will always try to error on the side of protecting the site

[Spitman]

I will have to be the judge of the stories ----and my judgement will be based on the black and white issue ---no stories of any preteen nature will be published--forced or other wise---now that you have brought up the question of non specific age mentioned ---those will be judged on a case by case basis---like if the story says he picked her out of her crib----then I would consider that clearly preteen---but if the story says he ripped the clothes off the young girl---unless there is something else in the story that leeds me to believe it was a preteen then I would publish that story.

now I am human and I may make a mistake ---but if I error ---I will always try to error on the side of protecting the site

I am perfectly happy with that, and thanks for the clarification.