Burning the American Flag

[Warbaby1943]

Meaning of the Flag Draped Coffin.
All Americans should be given this lesson. Those who think that America is an arrogant nation should really reconsider that thought. Our founding fathers used God’s word and teachings to establish our Great Nation and I think it's high time Americans get re-educated about this Nation's history. Pass it along and be proud of the country we live in and even more proud of those who serve to protect our "GOD GIVEN" rights and freedoms.

I hope you take the time to read this..... To understand what the flag draped coffin really means...... Here is how to understand the flag that laid upon it and is surrendered to so many widows and widowers. Do you know that at military funerals, the 21-gun salute stands for the sum of the numbers in the year 1776?

Have you ever noticed the honor guard pays meticulous attention to correctly folding the United States of America Flag 13 times? You probably thought it was to symbolize the original 13 colonies, but we learn something new every day!

The 1st fold of the flag is a symbol of life.

The 2nd fold is a symbol of the belief in eternal life.

The 3rd fold is made in honor and remembrance of the veterans departing the ranks who gave a portion of their lives for the defense of the country to attain peace throughout the world.

The 4th fold represents the weaker nature, for as American citizens trusting in God, it is to Him we turn in times of peace as well as in time of war for His divine guidance.

The 5th fold is a tribute to the country, for in the words of Stephen Decatur, "Our Country, in dealing with other countries, may she always be right; but it is still our country, right or wrong."

The 6th fold is for where people's hearts lie. It is with their heart that They pledge allegiance to the flag of the United! States Of America, and the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

The 7th fold is a tribute to its Armed Forces, for it is through the Armed Forces that they protect their country and their flag against all her enemies, whether they be found within or without the boundaries of their republic.

The 8th fold is a tribute to the one who entered into the valley of the shadow of death, that we might see the light of day.

The 9th fold is a tribute to womanhood, and Mothers. For it has been through their faith, their love, loyalty and devotion that the character of the men and women who have made this country great has been molded.

The 10th fold is a tribute to the father, for he, too, has given his sons and daughters for the defense of their country since they were first born.

The 11th fold represents the lower portion of the seal of King David and King Solomon and glorifies in the Hebrews eyes, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The 12th fold represents an emblem of eternity and glorifies, in the Christians eyes, God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.

The 13th fold, or when the flag is completely folded, the stars are uppermost reminding them of their nations motto, "In God We Trust."

After the flag is completely folded and tucked in, it takes on the appearance of a cocked hat, ever reminding us of the soldiers who served under General George Washington, and the Sailors and Marines who served under Captain John Paul Jones, who were followed by their comrades and shipmates in the Armed Forces of the United States, preserving for them the rights, privileges and freedoms they enjoy today.

There are some traditions and ways of doing things that have deep meaning. In the future, you'll see flags folded and now you will know why.

Share this with the children you love and all others who love what is referred to, the symbol of "Liberty and Freedom."

MAYBE THE SUPREME COURT SHOULD READ THIS EXPLANATION BEFORE THEY RENDER THEIR DECISION ON THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE.

FORWARD IT; MAYBE SOMEONE WITH THE NECESSARY POWER, OR POLITICAL AND FINANCIAL INFLUENCE, WILL GET IT TO THEM.

IN THE MEANTIME, MAY GOD PROTECT US ALWAYS. ONE NATION, UNDER GOD, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.

[Timberwolf]

"Those who think that America is an arrogant nation should really reconsider that thought."

Because they fold flags real nice at military funerals? If you say so.

I'd be far more concerned about the motivations that left it required to fold yet another flag for yet another human being dead, than the knowedge of what folds # 6, 7, and 8 represent.

Considering 10 of our own soldiers have died inthe past week in Afghanistan, you won't be the only ones folding flags I'm afraid.

[Ozme52]

Careful WB. If you're going to be that assertive, get your facts right.

Our rights were originally declared as "inalienable" rights. Later, at the Constitutional Convention, the writers (many of whom were also our "founding fathers") very clearly avoided linking God and Country. That all came later... and was not their intention.

The 21 gun salute has nothing to do with the numerics of 1776 except by coincidence. The British Navy established 'gun salutes' long before we declared independence. The number of guns reflects the rank of the person being saluted.

The flag folding ceremony you quote is also referenced at http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/more/folds.htm

They make the following comments about it: (red highlights are mine)

What follows is an unofficial, but popular script for folding the flag. It does not appear in the Flag Code and would appear to be in violation of military guidelines, in violation of the Establishment Clause. The Establishment Clause requires that expression not create the reasonable impression that the government is sponsoring, endorsing, or inhibiting religion generally, or favoring or disfavoring a particular religion. See discussion and references at the end of this page for more information. There are numerous variations to be found circulating online and in newsgroups and e-mails. We have not been successful in discovering its origin or authorship.

In fold 6, the Pledge is quoted with the words "under God," which were added to the Pledge in 1954.

...and yet, we've been folding the flag this way since long before 1954.

Lastly, since you went out of your way to capitalize your last three paragraphs, why do you feel you need to "yell" at us to make your point.

If you intend to yell, please try to at least get your facts straight.

[Warbaby1943]

Careful WB. If you're going to be that assertive, get your facts right.

Our rights were originally declared as "inalienable" rights. Later, at the Constitutional Convention, the writers (many of whom were also our "founding fathers") very clearly avoided linking God and Country. That all came later... and was not their intention.

The 21 gun salute has nothing to do with the numerics of 1776 except by coincidence. The British Navy established 'gun salutes' long before we declared independence. The number of guns reflects the rank of the person being saluted.

The flag folding ceremony you quote is also referenced at http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/more/folds.htm

They make the following comments about it: (red highlights are mine)



...and yet, we've been folding the flag this way since long before 1954.

Lastly, since you went out of your way to capitalize your last three paragraphs, why do you feel you need to "yell" at us to make your point.

If you intend to yell, please try to at least get your facts straight.

Sorry, I just passed it along assuming. We all know what assuming does. Again, I'm apologize for any discrepancies even though I did not write.

I should have probably posted a disclaimer.

[Asia]

Probably a useless addition to this thread, but again from a UK military stance.

My man's side of the family are all in the armed forces and in order to make light of a serious fact, they call themselves 'gun fodder' and 'professional killers' - that is what they are. My eldest brother 'in law' as a RSM (highest ranking soldier if not at Sandhurst Military School of the Royals and Riches) has the misfortune of being the coffin leader when the planes full of dead boy soldiers land back in the UK. He folds the flags, he orders the gun salutes, he has lost many of his men. Me and him do not argue about the reasoning of war, we stand from two very different viewpoints. We respect our differences. The point I'm trying to make is that as a staunch Protestant and a RSM in The King's Own Scottish Borderers Battalion, he burnt 'the' flag in a private ceremony in rememberance of his men, past, present and future. Burning and folding a countries flags is far less serious than being haunted by the twisted faces and bodies of strangers and comrades lost in another pointless invasion.

I think we owe more to remember lives lost and ruined than a material item that will never symbolise what the people in all our lands really want. Peace.

~ Sorry about this post, I'm sure this attitude was unwanted ~
Asia
xxx

[bluebutterfly]

Well said Asia. Remembering those lost is more important and unfortunately there are too many we need to remember.

Probably a useless addition to this thread, but again from a UK military stance.

My man's side of the family are all in the armed forces and in order to make light of a serious fact, they call themselves 'gun fodder' and 'professional killers' - that is what they are. My eldest brother 'in law' as a RSM (highest ranking soldier if not at Sandhurst Military School of the Royals and Riches) has the misfortune of being the coffin leader when the planes full of dead boy soldiers land back in the UK. He folds the flags, he orders the gun salutes, he has lost many of his men. Me and him do not argue about the reasoning of war, we stand from two very different viewpoints. We respect our differences. The point I'm trying to make is that as a staunch Protestant and a RSM in The King's Own Scottish Borderers Battalion, he burnt 'the' flag in a private ceremony in rememberance of his men, past, present and future. Burning and folding a countries flags is far less serious than being haunted by the twisted faces and bodies of strangers and comrades lost in another pointless invasion.

I think we owe more to remember lives lost and ruined than a material item that will never symbolise what the people in all our lands really want. Peace.

~ Sorry about this post, I'm sure this attitude was unwanted ~
Asia
xxx

[Warbaby1943]

Probably a useless addition to this thread, but again from a UK military stance.

My man's side of the family are all in the armed forces and in order to make light of a serious fact, they call themselves 'gun fodder' and 'professional killers' - that is what they are. My eldest brother 'in law' as a RSM (highest ranking soldier if not at Sandhurst Military School of the Royals and Riches) has the misfortune of being the coffin leader when the planes full of dead boy soldiers land back in the UK. He folds the flags, he orders the gun salutes, he has lost many of his men. Me and him do not argue about the reasoning of war, we stand from two very different viewpoints. We respect our differences. The point I'm trying to make is that as a staunch Protestant and a RSM in The King's Own Scottish Borderers Battalion, he burnt 'the' flag in a private ceremony in rememberance of his men, past, present and future. Burning and folding a countries flags is far less serious than being haunted by the twisted faces and bodies of strangers and comrades lost in another pointless invasion.

I think we owe more to remember lives lost and ruined than a material item that will never symbolise what the people in all our lands really want. Peace.

~ Sorry about this post, I'm sure this attitude was unwanted ~
Asia
xxx

Not true, your thoughts are all very interesting. Don't sell yourself short.

[MasterRob{cali}]

First, I have to say Asia very good, I understand were you are coming from and your bother in law, I feel his pain, know his nightmares, All to the tune of Goverments (all not just the US or UK) Ideas wants and ego building.
Genreal McCarthur side it well "No one prays for peace more then the combat soldeir" then you have billy joel song goodnight siagon in it he sings true words
"Whos wrong or whos right dosent matter in the thick of a firefight"
I also like to say about flag burning, i really dont have any >> however if i didnt like it I would have to defend it as thats a true consitional right here in Amercia, its called the 1st admentment. I as a american dont have to like what anyone says or dose here, as this country was build on the blood and souls of our best, brightes, in so many far away places. So we have that right.
Once again Asia, keep up the peace fight if we had more like minded people in the Goverments in the world we would have to drape coffins or fold flags.

Thank You
Master Rob

[Lady Dena]

(Note, I am from the United States, so my comments will reflect that particular perspective)

The fact that the United States' flag is such an important symbol, and that so many are deeply offended by public displays of disrespect toward it, is all the more reason why it is vitally important that flag desicration remain protected. The framers of the Bill of Rights did not enact the First Amendment to protect the right of people to express popular viewpoints -- they enacted it to protect unpopular viewpoints. They enacted it to protect the rights of each particular person to express ideas that might offend people.

It is hard to believe that I'm not preaching to the chior here (perhaps I am). We are all fans of this particular website, or we wouldn't be here. Consider, however, the fact that many people find the content of this site immoral and deeply offensive. Suppose the government were to attempt to outlaw accessing this site for that reason (the offensive nature of BDSM). Everyone here would, I'd bet, be complaining that their "free speech" is being trampled upon.

The First Amendment is a two-edged sword. Not only does it ALLOW you to utter and listen to speech that might offend your next door neighbor, it also COMMANDS you to tollerate your next door neighbor's offensive speech. As many very patriotic people have pointed out, "freedom ain't free." Usually when people say that, they are talking about military service, but it means something even more fundimental than that. It means that if are really serious about Freedom of Speech, it is every America's patriotic duty to follow the command of the First Amendment and tollerate the most offensive speech you can possibly imagine.

Sorry for the rant -- the above is a pet peeve of mine.

[Ozme52]

Dena, if you've reviewed the thread, you'll know I'm singing tenor in your choir. LOL

Well put.

[riverwindsong]

Ok...here's my two cents' worth...As the wife of an American veteran who has lost more friends in combat over the 20+ years he served than he cares to count, as the aunt of a Marine who served in Iraq for three tours of duty, as a former military wife, and as a proud American citizen, I must say that I support my country and what our flag has symbolized over the years. When I see that flag disrespected, and our military insulted, yes it makes my blood boil.

And as for the First Amendment, and the freedom of speech, there are times when I just want to smack people for not realizing just who made it possible for them to be able to say whatever they want - especially the fundamentalist fanatics of all kinds who seem to get caught on the "my way is the only right way, and the rest of y'all are going to hell" track.

But then I think of the true meaning of freedom - what it means, and of the awesome responsibility that goes along with it in all of its various forms. And I am incredibly thankful that I do live in a country where we are able to speak our minds, where we are able to worship the gods we believe in, where we are able to live (for the most part) the lifestyles we choose.

That being said, I must also say that I disagree with many of the policies our country has in place around the world. I do not agree with war. I do not like fighting, for any reason. I am tired of the politicians who have made America into the world's watchdog. But I feel it is my duty to support those who are serving, to let them know that they are not forgotten.

I don't remember who said it, but there is a saying that goes (somewhat) along these lines: "I may not agree with the things you say, but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it."

So, forgive me for waffling on the subject. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. I'll get off my soapbox now.

[Alex Bragi]

...

I don't remember who said it, but there is a saying that goes (somewhat) along these lines: "I may not agree with the things you say, but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it."

...

I don't remember the exact words either, but it was Voltaire who said it.

[riverwindsong]

I don't remember the exact words either, but it was Voltaire who said it.

Thank you! At least now I know who it was!

[scabrat]

I don't remember the exact words either, but it was Voltaire who said it.

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it

Voltaire, Real Name: François Marie Arouet, French philosopher (1694–1778)

Apparently

[mkemse]

I do not support the war, I DO SUPPORT OUR TROOPS and believe in our Consitution, no other country on our planet allows the freedoms or civil right's that we enjoy, but in any situation you have the good and bad, we have the luxury of the United Stes Contiution some people will agree with parts of it, some will disagree with parts of it and say so publcly which is our given right as US Citizen's, whether person agreee's or disagree with flag buring, the simply fact remains that the United Stae Suprmem Court rules that it is protected by the United State Contituation under freedom of speach and action
Altho I may agree or not agree with the ruling, it is one of the many freedoms we as American's enjoy in a free society, i can fully understand a famly member of family who has members fighting now or lost members fighting before to give us and preserve the rights we have
But I must aslo include that with these rights are rights and actions everyone is not going to agree with and what makes this nice is that in a Demoractic Sociaty that we live in we HAVE these rights, just like the rights on this forum to discuss these issues, we are not all going to agree on everything, the real world does not allow that, but we do have the right to discuss and disagree on issues without the fear of going to jail, this everyone will also agree on as beingture
In a free socierty you must give and take
I would rather be critized for say yes i support flag buring in a public forum if i did, and i repeat I neither spport it nor oppose flag burninig,but what is far more important to ME is to the have the right to even discuss the issue without fear of being arrested for doing so
Hope eveyone has a great day

[cariad]

...no other country on our planet allows the freedoms or civil right's that we enjoy,

Taking a deep breath before I say this, and not wishing to be in the slightest bit offensive. I admire many things about the US, but that is a sweeping statement.

Having been talking to someone from your country who has lost their house after needing medical treatment for an illness which they did not have insurance cover for, I would debate your point. You do not appear to have the freedom to be non-wealthy and healthy, which to me is a fairly basic right.

cariad

[Lady Dena]

Taking a deep breath before I say this, and not wishing to be in the slightest bit offensive. I admire many things about the US, but that is a sweeping statement.

Having been talking to someone from your country who has lost their house after needing medical treatment for an illness which they did not have insurance cover for, I would debate your point. You do not appear to have the freedom to be non-wealthy and healthy, which to me is a fairly basic right.

The above was a response to the statement "no other country on our planet allows the freedoms or civil right's that we [in the United States] enjoy." Your point is well taken -- there are serious problems with the US Health Care system.

I have never been to the UK, so perhaps there is a fundimental cultural difference between the way we look at certain things. Then again, perhaps it's just a difference between the way two individuals look at things. To most Americans, "Freedom / Liberty" and "Prosperity" are two very different concepts. The former refers to the absence of interference by the government, while the latter refers to your material well-being. If someone does not have access to the health care they need, then that person's problem is a lack of prosperity, not a lack of freedom.

I'm not belittling the problems of people who don't have access to health care. I am simply saying that when someone from the US boasts that we are a "free" country, that person is not necessarily boasting that we are prosperous. If you wish to critique the statement that no other country on our planet allows the freedoms or civil right's that we enjoy," then critique it in terms of government interference that people in the US must suffer, since that is the point that the poster was making.

- Lady Dena

[fantassy]

Having been talking to someone from your country who has lost their house after needing medical treatment for an illness which they did not have insurance cover for, I would debate your point. You do not appear to have the freedom to be non-wealthy and healthy, which to me is a fairly basic right.

cariad

Let me start by saying I believe the US definitely needs health care reform - to be sure the ability to get low-cost prescription drugs is a major problem; however, it is a myth that you can't be poor and get health care in the US - the US has many programs to help the poor get health care: medicaid, medicare, state programs, walk into an emergency room, county programs, a friend of mine who chose to retire early (thus not eligible for medicare), had 401(k) )thus not eligible for medicaid) was able to receive receive free treatment for colon cancer thru gov program. What is true is that you may not be able to get the BEST healthcare available in the US if you're poor; however, that is true of many people in those countries who have a national healthcare system - they often cannot get healthcare in their counties comparable to the healthcare the wealthiest Americans have access to. That just seems to be a fact of life - being wealthy gets you more better stuff.

In addition Cariad, the example you cited seemed to support the proposition that this friend, in fact, did get the necessary health care. She had the right to choose better health care rather than owning a home. Not a fun choice, but a choice freely made. However, the US also provides some protections about owning a home which makes me wonder why your friend lost her home unless the hospital made her pre-pay which seems unlikely. Legally, one can run up a ton of medical bills, fail to pay them, and then file bankruptcy to make the bills go away and still keep one's house and other "exempt" assets.

Rabbit1,

I agree in theory that working to elect good officials is the best way to acheive reform, but I have gotten cynical over the years of watching Americans vote for the "more likeable" and "better financed" candidates rather than the smarter or more self-less candidates. How does one get attention paid to one's ideas if you don't have financing? Write an intelligent letter to the editor and no one pays attention. Burn a flag and all the major networks show. Sad but true.

fantassy

[Rabbit1]

Let me start by saying I believe the US definitely needs health care reform - to be sure the ability to get low-cost prescription drugs is a major problem; however, it is a myth that you can't be poor and get health care in the US - the US has many programs to help the poor get health care: medicaid, medicare, state programs, walk into an emergency room, county programs, a friend of mine who chose to retire early (thus not eligible for medicare), had 401(k) )thus not eligible for medicaid) was able to receive receive free treatment for colon cancer thru gov program. What is true is that you may not be able to get the BEST healthcare available in the US if you're poor; however, that is true of many people in those countries who have a national healthcare system - they often cannot get healthcare in their counties comparable to the healthcare the wealthiest Americans have access to. That just seems to be a fact of life - being wealthy gets you more better stuff.

In addition Cariad, the example you cited seemed to support the proposition that this friend, in fact, did get the necessary health care. She had the right to choose better health care rather than owning a home. Not a fun choice, but a choice freely made. However, the US also provides some protections about owning a home which makes me wonder why your friend lost her home unless the hospital made her pre-pay which seems unlikely. Legally, one can run up a ton of medical bills, fail to pay them, and then file bankruptcy to make the bills go away and still keep one's house and other "exempt" assets.

Rabbit1,

I agree in theory that working to elect good officials is the best way to acheive reform, but I have gotten cynical over the years of watching Americans vote for the "more likeable" and "better financed" candidates rather than the smarter or more self-less candidates. How does one get attention paid to one's ideas if you don't have financing? Write an intelligent letter to the editor and no one pays attention. Burn a flag and all the major networks show. Sad but true.

fantassy

you are right about candidates getting attention ---but that is where we the people come in ---if enough of the complainers get out off their couch and start helping getting out the word about the right canidates then the money one spends is not so much an issue----and those same people can help raise money for the canidate they believe in ----you are right doing bad things get media atteniton ----you see militants in Iraq on TV---what you do not see is more than half are not from Iraq but from other countries there to stir things up and no let freedom in ---the main people of Iraq want this freedom --it is the other countries that do not want them to have it or it may spread to their country ---but you do not see that on TV or in the papers ---You just see what sells newspapers and gets rating ---I have family in Iraq and they believe in what is going on there ----I would rather believe them than the media

This should not even be a political issue ---congress voted on this ----for what ever reason ---now just because it is not going the way they thought it should ---everyone is backing off ---our troops did not ask to go ---they are serving their country ---as I and may other before me have----there is no way to win a political war----


But back to the point being cynical watching is a problem in it self---instead of watching ---why not get out there and do something----too many people watch and see things not go the right way instead of trying to steer it the right way ----yes I live in Florida the home of the recount---lol

when you see it not going the right way it is most likely too late ---and if you are busy trying to steer it the right way ---you will not have time to see it going wrong----in 66 days we have a mid term election here ----and as a rule it is the most under voted period in our system---get out and vote --pick up and take a friend with you----lend a ride to people who have transportation problems -----Talk about your canidate to others ----if you can help them raise money

[mkemse]

Our Country is not perfect, nodbody ever said it was, health care is a HUGE issue here, but unlike other countries, our contry seems to be less interested in health care which is as you put it correct and very unfortunate, we are the Richest Nation on Earth, yet some of our own citizen's have to decide daily weekly or monthly, do i pay my rent, my electricity and buy food or do i buy my medication, a basic human right, but like i said we as a nation are not perfect and never will be, but at the same time we enjoy more things then others do
Nation Health Care In The US would be great, a god send, the reason we do not have it is politicains here worry more about their own skin and lobbiests then in the people they represent, which is why we have elections evey 2-4years depending on what office they seek
The lobbiest in this country are to strong and until the Goverment does what is fair National Health Care wil never exist
Both of our Parties are to beholden to special intrests as a result many things that need to be done are not
Social Security Recipients in this country do NOT recieve a living wage to live on, be they retired or disabled, we barely make it each month, I speak from experience being disabled I barely make it each month, i have $2.00
going into a new month if that, i can barely afford my medication but some how our country always has the money to go to war and and money to make and drop bombs on othe rnations go figure this out please
No i am far from pleased with my life style but I AM FREE to say so and can do so without fearing of going out and being arrested for critizing those who are responsible
Last year for the first time in 5 years Social Security reciepients recieved a 4% cost of living increaee in January as oppsed to 1.5 % we usualy get, but as luck would have it of the 4% i got, 60% went back for my Meidcare D card to buy medications which i I might add costs me more now then it did when i had a State program which the goverrment ended with Medicare D, I have gotten used to living like this, this choice is not mine but it is ONE of the few choice in a free society that are NOT mine, I can work where I want if I was physicaly able to work which I am not, I can live where I want, drive where I want visit who I want and when without asking permission of any one other then those I am visiting to make surethey want company

[mkemse]

Sorry if I took thr wrong exit on the right expressway
have a nice day all

[cariad]

Breathes again, thank you for your considered replies mkemse and Lady Dena. I wish to take a bit of time before I critique the statement within those terms. Quite simply I do not have information to do so without some research.

I do take your points about personal/cultural differences in interpretation, and that is one of the joys of belonging to a community like this. I can see the difference between freedom/liberty and prosperity, although my perception is that without adequate prosperity to ensure a basic level of health and education, the freedoms and liberties which you mention are an irrelevant luxury.

cariad


p.s. I am aware that I am a moderator of this forum, so I have informed Rabbit1 of this discussion we are having, so someone is keeping an on me too!

[riverwindsong]

I would have to agree with you, Cariad. I see it all the time in my line of work, which is sadly pathetic, especially given all of the advances that our society as a whole has.

[Rabbit1]

I am and always will be a US Marine---I retired recently from the reserve ---having served my country more than 22 years on active duty and reserve duty. I have lived my life with honor and done what was asked of me by the government that the people elected. I lost brothers and friends in Vietnam and Family in Iraq.

I love my country and respect the flag, and it does disturb me to see it dishonored. But we need to stop second guessing ---stop pointing fingers. All of this is just meaningless attempts to get attention. And when we quit giving it the attention it does not deserve, then it will quit being an issue.

It is like naughty children, doing something they know is wrong just to get the parents attention. So you spank the child and never find out why they did it. Then the next time they want attention they may do it again.

If the elected representives would spend as much time and effort on keeping American people fed --housed ---health care ---education ---they would have no time for such little things as flag burning laws.

The Flag means different things to different people, Just like prayers in schools, The rebel flag in the southren courthouses, the teaching of evolution is school, and other such personal things that upset an individual.

to some people the flag is nothing but a pretty thing blowing in the breeze, and it will never be anything more. Why because we failed to teach them what it really is. A symbol of liberty and freedom, that marks and set this country apart from all others.

Yes we have problems, And maybe the flag burners are trying to draw attention to those problems. I do not think that is the right way of doing it, I on the other hand am active in trying to elect people from my state that will forget the little things and work for the people. That is the way to effect change in the government, not burning flags, not complaining to each other.

Get out there ---and get the idiots out of congress that are not serving the people. The ones that tell you what you want to hear during elections, but once elected fail to follow thru ---why do we keep electing these people.

That is why I made a comment early in this thread, because you know what, no matter what comments are made here---they will not change a thing

I am all for active change --you do not like something---get out and try to change it ---just like the stories on the front page-of this forum---I was so tired of seeing poor reviews by other authors ---that I started Writer's Block to teach new authors ----I do lead by example

So you hate flag burning ---lets do something about it ---lets find out why they are doing it. Lets teach our own children to respect the flag.

Think Flag burning is a non issue---great lets do something about it --lets vote those idiots out of congress that spent months of time and a lot of money trying to draft the amendment out and get some people with good old common sense in the office.

I would never burn the flag to get attention ---but a bon fire in some congressman's front yard might be in order to get their attention ---lol

[mkemse]

I agree with Rabbit1, let's get people into Washington that will deal with and solve the issues of Mental Health, Homlesness, Medical Insurance ect ect and let's worry less about less important issues let'sh ave our reprentatives in Washington servethe needs of the people and not their own needs
We have amid term election in Novmeber, vote your concioud but VOTE, if you do not vote you have right right to complain about ANYTHING
As the saying goes "If you are NOT part of the solution or part of the peoblem what the .... are you doing here
Simply put even if this is turce, vote or shut up!!! If you don't vote in November don't complain after words over who was elected, you had your chance

[ColinClout(c)]

So much I could say here, and most of it I want to chew over before I risk posting it. But one thing I would like to throw in if I may.

Anything I had to say about patriotism in the United States would have little value, as I have never lived there, so I can only think of it in terms of my own country, the United Kingdom (and even to call it that is controversial of course!) I am fairly left-of-centre when it comes to politics, although my faith means that I often find that I am not looking at political issues through the usual left-right perspective. However, I do find that as I grow older (not THAT old as yet, thank you very much) I get more and more attached to the UK. I do not believe that it is the best place on earth by any means, but it is certainly my favourite, because it is mine.

This means that I care about my country and the way it behaves. In turn, this means that I treasure the right to contest what our flag is made to stand for, because it represents me. I want the right to disagree with the things that are done in the name of the UK, and I can well imagine a situation in which the only way I was able graphically to disassociate myself from actions taken by my goverment would be to destroy the emblem of that government. To me it is a legitimate act of protest, and need not be a betrayal of one's own country. Those of us who love the places we live want to make them the best we can, and want them to act in the way that we consider to be the most responsible.

There is a continual battle for the meaning of our national symbols. In the UK, this often manifests itself in attempts by the far Right to take possesion of the Union Flag and in effect to associate it with racism, thus making it hard for us to use our national flag(s) without those overtones. Acts such as flag burning highlight the contest for what our respective countries stand for, and what they aim to achieve. That debate has to happen, and if the flags serve a useful symbolic (unifying) purpose in the first place, then burning them can be an equally valid and useful way of saying that the uniformity they appear to represent is illusory.

OK, anyone want to explain to me what the heck I just said?

CC

[SheepishJaina]

I personally have nothing against burning the flag. If that's the way you want to protest, that is your right to. Heck if you wanted to set yourself on fire in protest, thats fine by me. We have the right to express how we feel. However I would personally never do such a thing, with the exception of retiring an old flag.

The fact that the government has taken the time to argue and debate on this matter makes me sick. There are thousands of other pressing issues in the country, and they spend their time on.. flag burning of all things?

[_ID_]

There are thousands of other pressing issues in the country, and they spend their time on.. flag burning of all things?

Flag burning gets the attention it does, because to address flag burning, they don't need to reform a current infrastructure, they don't need to fund research to make it happen, they get to just talk about a highly charged issue, and look good when they say "I agree, its not a good thing..... blah blah blah." Droning on about that issue makes it look as though they care about doing something while in office.

I agree with Rabbit, getting out and highlighting the issues at hand, that is the best way to motivate people for change.

The #1 roadblock that will be encounted when making fundemental change in any of our government supported systems, e.g. education, heath care, is tax reform.

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