Lost Data

[denuseri]

Ancient knowledge should not be confused with ancient superstitions. Knowledge is gained through experience and education, (As well as through meditation and wisdom and can come from within in some peoples experience) while superstition is just a way to explain something you cannot, or will not, understand. As you gain understanding the need for such explanations declines. A perfect example is lightning. Another one is mans beilief that clairvoance was a fallacy, yet remote viewing techniques have proven thats not entirely true.

Some Christians always (and other christans figured it wasnt, surprising huh?) considered lightning to be a sign of God's wrath, inflicted upon sinners for their evil ways. Until Ben Franklin determined the true nature of lightning and, more importantly, developed a defense: the lightning rod. Benjamin Franklin was raised as an Episcopalian but was a Deist as an adult.

Again some: Church leaders called the lightning rod a tool of the devil, intended to divert God's wrath. Business owners (who were also most likely christans), on the other hand, realized that their buildings weren't getting struck when protected by the rods. When Church leaders realized that the town churches (a lot of churches allrady had a version of the rod in a cross on a steeple, where do you think Ben may have got the idea) were being struck repeatedly while the town brothels were not they quickly changed their tunes.

Education and understanding eliminated the need for God as an excuse for being struck by lightning. Superstition feeds that obsolete need. Todays magic is tomarrows science too.

A Greek mathematician, Eratosthenes, calculated the diameter of the Earth around 240BC, so the ancients certainly had the knowledge and the intelligence to use that knowledge. (and yet they also belived in a great many other things you wish to blithely ignore or refuse to see as valid, when they were part of the whole) But that does not mean that everything they believed should be taken as gospel. They were just as easy to manipulate and mislead as modern humans. There we agree, but I think all of it should however be considered and studdied in much greater detail before poetions are dismissed.

Certainly people can believe that God resides within them. There is no one who can prove them wrong. But if they cannot admit to themselves that this belief is based only on faith and not on evidence they are no better off than some ancient shepherd cowering in his field because a comet hangs in the sky. Maintain your faith if it comforts you. But don't deny reality and don't attempt to force that faith on others.

Again, I agree, no one should force anything on anyone, including athiests and scientists. And some of those beliefs are based on more than just faith depending upon which beliefs we are speaking of here. The world is not the Catholic Church that maligned you so during your youth.

[Thorne]

Ancient knowledge should not be confused with ancient superstitions. Knowledge is gained through experience and education, [B](As well as through meditation and wisdom and can come from within in some peoples experience)

I disagree. Inspiration and understanding (wisdom) may come through meditation, but not new knowledge.

Another one is mans beilief that clairvoance was a fallacy, yet remote viewing techniques have proven thats not entirely true.

You have proof of clairvoyance? And remote viewing? All I've ever heard of are illusionists' tricks and failed tests. I would love to see your evidence of these things. (Remember, anecdotes are not evidence.)

Benjamin Franklin was raised as an Episcopalian but was a Deist as an adult.

What difference does that make? His work is the same, regardless.

(a lot of churches allrady had a version of the rod in a cross on a steeple, where do you think Ben may have got the idea)

Actually, the crosses were part of the problem, providing a relatively easy path for lightning. And since they weren't grounded they didn't drain off the excess charge. Instead, they transmitted the full force of the lightning to the building (church).

Todays magic is tomarrows science too.

Today's magic is either illusion for entertainment or for fraud. Magic does not work. Every scientific test of magic or supernatural claims has failed. While it is true that a sufficiently advanced technology could appear to be magic, the very fact that we are aware of that possibility allows us to search for the science behind it, rather than chalking it up to magic.

A Greek mathematician, Eratosthenes, calculated the diameter of the Earth around 240BC, so the ancients certainly had the knowledge and the intelligence to use that knowledge. (and yet they also belived in a great many other things you wish to blithely ignore or refuse to see as valid, when they were part of the whole)

Such as? I am quite willing to accept anything they may have believed, provided there is evidence for it. Their belief that Zeus ruled from Mt. Olympus, and such, does not impress me, however.

I think all of it should however be considered and studdied in much greater detail before poetions are dismissed.

It has been considered and studied. And discounted. That's what science does! That's why we have chemists rather than alchemists. That's why we have astronomers rather than astrologers (although there are still far too many of those around, too.)

no one should force anything on anyone, including athiests and scientists.

I can't speak for all atheists and scientists, of course, but I don't believe in forcing beliefs on anyone, either. But keeping theists from equating superstitions with science is not forcing beliefs, but keeping the two separate. Telling people that there's nothing wrong with not believing in God (as in the atheist bus ads campaigns) is not forcing anyone to believe in anything.

The world is not the Catholic Church that maligned you so during your youth.

I wouldn't say I was maligned by the Church. More like misled and lied to. But while I am more familiar with the Catholic Church than any other religions, I am against all types of religions. It's my belief that religion causes more problems and divisions in the world, simply by segregating people into believers and non-believers, than any other form of human endeavor. Using people's fears of death to control them is not my idea of a good thing.

[steelish]

Certainly people can believe that God resides within them. There is no one who can prove them wrong. But if they cannot admit to themselves that this belief is based only on faith and not on evidence they are no better off than some ancient shepherd cowering in his field because a comet hangs in the sky. Maintain your faith if it comforts you. But don't deny reality and don't attempt to force that faith on others.

I am completely against organized religion. Most are zealots who (I agree with you) use people's faith as scare tactics to enforce the behavior they require their congregation to exhibit.

That being said it is my belief that faith in God's existence is exactly that...FAITH. I do believe he resides in each one of us. I feel He is the guiding force for good. Some call it a conscience, I prefer to believe it is God's guiding hand. Call it what you will. I for one think people are entitled to their own opinion in regards to faith. I do not believe in trying to "recruit" followers as organized religions are want to do. What another person believes (as far as religion goes) doesn't directly effect my life. Thank God (a slight pun there) that I live in the States and not where it WOULD effect my life, such as Ireland, Israel, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.

[Thorne]

That being said it is my belief that faith in God's existence is exactly that...FAITH. I do believe he resides in each one of us. I feel He is the guiding force for good. Some call it a conscience, I prefer to believe it is God's guiding hand. Call it what you will. I for one think people are entitled to their own opinion in regards to faith. I do not believe in trying to "recruit" followers as organized religions are want to do. What another person believes (as far as religion goes) doesn't directly effect my life. Thank God (a slight pun there) that I live in the States and not where it WOULD effect my life, such as Ireland, Israel, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.

Even here in the US religion has far too great an influence on our lives than it should. Where I live they still have "Blue Laws" proscribing what one can do on Sundays. Your religion, or lack of it, has no bearing on whether these laws apply to you: they affect everyone. Those who protest against gay marriage are mostly doing so on religious grounds. Just ask gays in California if the tenets of organized religion have affected their lives. The same goes for abortion. And how likely would it be for an avowed atheist, for example, to be elected President?

Religion in the US is so ubiquitous that we don't always see how it affects our daily lives, whether we believe or not. Most vocal atheists are striving to make people aware of that. They aren't trying to "recruit", or convert, people. They don't care what you believe. All they (we) want is for religious beliefs to be kept out of our lives. Don't make something illegal on Sunday if it's not illegal on Saturday. Don't push religion into public schools. Don't make others adhere to a religious belief of what constitutes a "proper" marriage.

As I've stated often here, I have no problem with those who believe in God, or gods. If you find comfort in your beliefs, who am I to say you are wrong? And if I don't feel the need for such a belief in my life, who is there to tell me that I am wrong?