Removing underage stories

[alura]

What is your problem? If you don't like this stuff then why are you on here? Go away. We don't want to hear your shit. Christianity is not about judging and that's certainly what you are doing. I used to be a 'died in the wool' church going person until I met up with enough of you to turn my stomach. You are all alike. You claim to love the human race but you only love yourself. I know more atheists who are kind and giving than I know christian people. I speak from experience when I say this. I've seen so many like you who claim to be free but in reality you are bound up in cages of your own making. So many of you are unhappy - - - you want things you can never have; things that you are only willing to admit in your deepest and darkest moments. I feel sorry for you. You are so blind to who you really are and what you really want and like most of the church going clan you are probably miserable in your own life and so? You strike out at others because it's 'status quo' when in reality you are probably dying to be free. I feel so sad for you that you are so blind to the truth. The truth is this: Everyone has the right to choose and in the words of the Holy Book (that's right...I have been in church for years, babe- - I can even quote chapter and verse when requested) "Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged". Remember those words because when you face God someday, you're going to hear that echo in your small minded ears.
We don't want your kind on here...judgemental, stupid and blind. Get lost!

I think underage sex, bdsm, sadism, bestiality, homosexuality and the whole lot is disgusting. It does my heart good to see these stories removed. If only they could ALL be removed.

God knows the perverted thoughts going through your heads. And God don't like fags, queers, dykes, sluts, witches, ribbers, pills, or sex other than for the purpose of making babies. We have been waiting for 200 years and now we own the government and we own you. This country was founded by Christians, and now it will be a Christian nation once again.

The best part is...even if you move the content, you are still here. Do you really think you can hide behind a computer?!? We can find you. We can prosecute you. First the site owners, then the authors, then the readers. You sick pagans - may you burn in hell!

[Chuckdom19]

I think S_Couture is baiting people here to see what responses he gets. Many other remarks reveal he doesn't live by what he says here.

[S_Couture]

I think S_Couture is baiting people here to see what responses he gets. Many other remarks reveal he doesn't live by what he says here.

I was only kidding. But you don't have to go far to see that this is the mentality we are dealing with here. Do you really think they are going to stop with a certain type of story? They are all JUST stories. Just fiction.

But to the people who say, "What's the big deal? Just remove the underage stories. No big whoop..."

Do you realize what you are saying? We are talking a who's who of BDSM literature. Parker, Thumb, Marlissa, Cowgirl, Orestes, Dr. Phil, Dr. Wu, LCDRJMC, etc. etc. Removing from a site is not the same as burning books, but it is no less dastardly. These works are effectively gone for millions of readers.

Go ahead and include the like of Nabakov and Shakespeare in your list of works to ban.

"I don't read those stories...."

Bullshit. Read the top rated stories list on this site. See how many have characters under 18. How many golden Clitorides winners feature underaged characters? How many website owners have gotten out of the business? How many authors have quit writing? How long before you people wake up?

[alura]

I think S_Couture is baiting people here to see what responses he gets. Many other remarks reveal he doesn't live by what he says here.

I haven't read any of his/her other stuff but sorry remarks like that totally piss me off because I've been on both sides. So many christian people are so evil..really they are. Selfish, backbiting, twisted....it's sad really because there are some out there who are truly good...like my mom, for one.

And now I've read your response S Couture and I won't apologize for my responses because I didn't know who you were.

[S_Couture]

And now I've read your response S Couture and I won't apologize for my responses because I didn't know who you were.

It's no problem. I was baiting anyway. It's just that everyone always thinks that they aren't a perv. We are all pervs on the inside.

[alura]

It's no problem. I was baiting anyway. It's just that everyone always thinks that they aren't a perv. We are all pervs on the inside.

Yeah that was the point I was trying to make exactly. We are. I know so many church going people who are into stuff that their friends don't know about. I hate all that pretending. Why can't people just be REAL?

[Eternal]

While I don't particularily care for the underage stories, I do recognize that there are people that do. And while it wouldn't be the end of the world, if the American Taliban stopped at banning underage stories, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that it is only the beginning. I really think that the new webmaster has little choice, but to protect the site (and quite frankly I'd rather lose the underage stories than all of the stories). But where does one draw the line - I'm afraid that fundies won't stop, until all stories are banned, and continous retreat will only encourage them...


First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


Pastor Martin Niemöller

[boccaccio2000g]

[QUOTE=



All stories that have underage (younger than 18 year old) characters involved in sexual scene (either participating or spectating) will be removed!

QUOTE]

First, I think that most, but perhaps not all of us would agree that in real life it is legally and morally questionable for an adult of say, twenty-five years or more to try to seduce an underage person of either sex. There is an inherent power/experience imbalance that works against the teenager.

That said, in fiction I think there is a huge difference in tone between

1) stories in which a young person under eighteen is being pursued, seduced, or stalked by an older person who is depicted, in the story, as acting in a morally repugnant way. That doesn't mean that the older person cannot be shown to be excited by the temptation or the reality of such an experience, but that, by some means the author contrives to show the reader that that character is 'wrong' to have given into that temptation -- which most of us have experienced. High school cheerleaders wear short skirts; there's nothing particularly wrong, I don't suppose, in adult males (or females) admiring the pretty legs of cheerleaders. But it is wrong, I think, for an older adult to take that admiration to the next level.

and

2) stories in which an older person uses a young person sexually in a setting in which such conduct is not depicted as reprehensible. I don't think it is 'wrong' or socially damaging or destructive to write a story about an older man lusting after high school cheerleaders as long as the tone of the story condemns his actions (even if it celebrates them in a prurient sense).

Even so, while I do not 'approve' of stories that portray such a male character in a positive light, I don't think they should be censored. They're still just stories.

This whole business, like all censorship, gets really nutty when you try to apply it in practice. As I said, I would not 'approve' a story which portrayed a thirty year old man seducing (or letting himself be seduced by) a sixteen-year-old girl with no moral context. But how about a twenty five year old man? A twenty year old man? An eighteen year old 'man'? Where should the line be drawn? Are all twenty year old men equal? Are all sixteen year old girls equal?

It gets worse. How about historical stories? To deny the existence of teenage sexuality in historical times is as nutty as to pretend that teenage sexuality wouldn't exist in our own time if it were not for 'dirty old men'. Juliet's nurse tells us "Come Lammas-eve at night shall she be fourteen". Clearly, it seems to me, fourteen was a different age, in social terms, in renaissance Verona than in many heartland crossroads today.

Finally, there is the issue -- and this hits home with me personally -- what if the age of the young person is a legitimate (and not merely a prurient) part of the entire plot. One of the scores of characters in the "Jade Pavilion" is Ci-ci, a poor Chinese girl who is about fourteen or fifteen when she takes employment as a maid in the Black Pagoda, the castle/palace of the villainous Richard Chan, who controls the Shanghai underworld in the 1880's. Chan takes a liking to the pretty young servant-girl and after a time he takes her to his bed, as he has so many women before her. Later, after being presented with false evidence against her (by his #1 concubine who is jealous of Chan's fondness for Ci-ci), Chan comes to believe that Ci-ci is a thief and a liar and turns her over to his minions, the Black Scorpions, who treat her very badly indeed. Meanwhile Ci-ci has an older sister, Peony, (who plays a much more important role in the overall story), and Peony, hearing of her sister's dreadful plight, offers herself to the Scorpions if they will let her little sister go free. Peony's unselfishness and nobility of spirit is one of the threads that binds this very long work together, and I don't think her sisterly sacrifice resonates nearly as well if Ci-ci is nineteen instead of fifteen.

Most of Ci-ci's history is told over several chapters of my book, but Peony appears and reappears throughout this very long story. As I said, changing Ci-ci's age by five years alters the entire tone of the story. Removing her from the story altogether leaves all sorts of loose ends because the relationship between the two sisters is an integral part of a long and complex story. Realistically, if Ci-ci goes down, so to speak, the "Jade Pavilion" -- which I have recently begun to work on again, after a lengthy hiatus -- is going down with her.

And I think it would be a sad irony if a work which was intended to broaden the horizons of erotica should contribute to their being narrowed.

Boccaccio

[DarkPen]

I'll save you the trouble of hunting my stories down. I only have 2: Avatar and Avatar Book 2. They both contain charactors that are under 18. The youngest currently is 15.


So go ahead and pull them, but I won't change a single, solitary word of the stories. I've had people asking me reciently why I haven't posted. It's because I'm doing a Naked in School side story to Avatar. One of the charactors is 14. I figured that something like this was coming, and didn't want to waste my time, and the time of the site owner, posting the story.

I'll tell you what though: I'm not changing a single word of my writing. It's your site, pull them if you feel like it. They don't have the 'young' code attached to them, so I'm telling you where they are.

Both stories, BTW, are among the highest rated on the site.

I'll tell you something else: Pulling those 'young' coded (and anything under 18) stories? It's not going to help you. As another poster pointed out, they are targeting anything obscene. That includes snuff, mutilation, beastiality, noncon, SCAT, URINATION, BDSM.

If you fold on this, I assure you, you may as well fold the site, because the definition of an obscene story is one that has no socially redeeming value.

I've spoken to a lawyer about this -- someone who is actually a rather high leve ACLU lawyer. You think you're protected under the first amendment when you write about someone shitting in someone elses mouth? Better think again. Unless a jury can find something socially redeeming in the story, it's considered obscene, and obscenity, in any form (pictures/film/text) is NOT protected.

If this site is in Canada, then I'd say you have a bit more protection then we do in the USA. But what do I know? I'm not Canadian.

Pen

[DominantP]

So go ahead and pull them, but I won't change a single, solitary word of the stories.

Cheers to you. Just because people disagree or don't like to read your topics, does NOT mean you should have your rights slapped on the wrist.

No, I don't like these sorts of stories, but does that mean I want them to just vanish? Should we turn a deaf ear and pretend it never existed? This is a BDSM community; a sect of sexuality and a lifestyle that is more often than not frowned upon, and thus why there aren't an enormous amount of BDSM story sites. We should not stoop down and become hypocritical.

Furthermore, I'm extremely displeased at the new ownership of the site. I understand there's a certain time of adjustment, but this new owner has only brought the BDSM Library down thus far.

Porn ads where there used to be Bondage-related ads, not a SINGLE story update, and now censorship. This is not a changing of the guard, this is a takeover, and this is wrong.

[Chuckdom19]

Furthermore, I'm extremely displeased at the new ownership of the site. I understand there's a certain time of adjustment, but this new owner has only brought the BDSM Library down thus far.

Porn ads where there used to be Bondage-related ads, not a SINGLE story update, and now censorship. This is not a changing of the guard, this is a takeover, and this is wrong.

The ads make money, and allow the site to keep operating. Not your kind of ads? Not mine either... but perhaps ABC doesn't like advertising Fords... they still do, because it pays.

Tiger has been working on the update for three days now: it is not simple, as there are a LOT of stories backed up to be posted. Give the guy some TIME. And the censorship was proposed by the government, not by Tiger. I haven't seen him propose it anywhere.

[Masters_lilone]

even though i think that our goverment is screwed up i agree with tiger removing all underage stories to prevent the site and the academy from being shut down it was this site that made me want to start to write stories based on our lifestyle so it would be a bad thing to see this site shut down
beside starting to write for this site i am also a student at the academy that is part of this site. even though i do not approve of cenorship of any knd i think that it's important that we not give the goverment any reason to force tiger to shut down this site

[DominantP]

The ads make money, and allow the site to keep operating. Not your kind of ads? Not mine either... but perhaps ABC doesn't like advertising Fords... they still do, because it pays.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with ads, but before they were at least relevant. Breaking bonds with those sponsors was not a smart move.

And it's wonderful that we're giving up our rights just because the government wags a finger at us. Afterall, it's not us yet, right? I mean, do you really want people to be this passive if the government decides against bondage related material as well? And yes, this is an administrator decision to remove the stories. I would rather have the site shut down and fight legally for it's rights than have our work censored, thank you. If the new owner was not willing to fight tooth and nail for this website, maybe he's the wrong man for the job.

As for being patient, coming up on 2 weeks of no updates and no "improvements", excuse me if I'm a little skeptical. Anyone on here who's willing to give up their rights of writing whatever they want, no matter how sickening it may be to some people, should put down their pens. Last time I checked, real writers didn't believe in censorship.

EDIT: Furthermore, I don't believe the Red Rose Stories thing for a second. If the FBI shut down a site, they would NOT let you put up a front page in place of it and would certainly not allow you to have your forums and chat alive and linked from said front page. When isonews.com was shut down for illegal activities, the FBI put up their own message. Not all things on the internet are truthful.

[delish]

Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with ads, but before they were at least relevant. Breaking bonds with those sponsors was not a smart move.

And it's wonderful that we're giving up our rights just because the government wags a finger at us. Afterall, it's not us yet, right? I mean, do you really want people to be this passive if the government decides against bondage related material as well? And yes, this is an administrator decision to remove the stories. I would rather have the site shut down and fight legally for it's rights than have our work censored, thank you. If the new owner was not willing to fight tooth and nail for this website, maybe he's the wrong man for the job.

As for being patient, coming up on 2 weeks of no updates and no "improvements", excuse me if I'm a little skeptical. Anyone on here who's willing to give up their rights of writing whatever they want, no matter how sickening it may be to some people, should put down their pens. Last time I checked, real writers didn't believe in censorship.

EDIT: Furthermore, I don't believe the Red Rose Stories thing for a second. If the FBI shut down a site, they would NOT let you put up a front page in place of it and would certainly not allow you to have your forums and chat alive and linked from said front page. When isonews.com was shut down for illegal activities, the FBI put up their own message. Not all things on the internet are truthful.

From what I can tell, Tiger's only been here, what, four days now? It's hardly his fault that it's been weeks since there was an update/improvement on the site. Also, have we even -heard- from him regarding this action? Maybe we should wait a few ticks before ripping his throat out, eh?

[delish]

Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with ads, but before they were at least relevant. Breaking bonds with those sponsors was not a smart move.

And it's wonderful that we're giving up our rights just because the government wags a finger at us. Afterall, it's not us yet, right? I mean, do you really want people to be this passive if the government decides against bondage related material as well? And yes, this is an administrator decision to remove the stories. I would rather have the site shut down and fight legally for it's rights than have our work censored, thank you. If the new owner was not willing to fight tooth and nail for this website, maybe he's the wrong man for the job.

As for being patient, coming up on 2 weeks of no updates and no "improvements", excuse me if I'm a little skeptical. Anyone on here who's willing to give up their rights of writing whatever they want, no matter how sickening it may be to some people, should put down their pens. Last time I checked, real writers didn't believe in censorship.

EDIT: Furthermore, I don't believe the Red Rose Stories thing for a second. If the FBI shut down a site, they would NOT let you put up a front page in place of it and would certainly not allow you to have your forums and chat alive and linked from said front page. When isonews.com was shut down for illegal activities, the FBI put up their own message. Not all things on the internet are truthful.

From what I can tell, Tiger's only been here, what, four days now? It's hardly his fault that it's been weeks since there was an update/improvement on the site. Also, have we even -heard- from him regarding this action? Maybe we should wait a few ticks before ripping his throat out, eh?

[DominantP]

From what I can tell, Tiger's only been here, what, four days now? It's hardly his fault that it's been weeks since there was an update/improvement on the site. Also, have we even -heard- from him regarding this action? Maybe we should wait a few ticks before ripping his throat out, eh?

I stand corrected, but I was confused and thought that Tiger had first made this topic, when it was Jinn (all of Jinn's post are marked as Tiger's now?) Because of this and the confusion of the actual transfer date, I'll wait to see what happens from here on in. My only complaint that still stands is the ads, but that's minor, really. I'd love to see some decision by Tiger soon, however.

[Sweep]

I abhor censorship in any form.

The thought police have tried to stifle free speech and expression for centuries. Fortunately the human spirit has always prevailed.

Whilst I find stories of parents and others abusing children offensive as I do with snuff stories, the solution is simple - I don't read them.

As Voltare is so often quoted "I disagree with what you say but will fight until the day I die for your right to say it"

Besides it is all so contradictory. How the churches can oppose snuff movies when they so openly supported the recent Mel Gibson movie "The last passion of Christ" escapes any logic.

Besides the distinction that others have made between fantasy and reality is perfectly valid. I read Harry Potter but I don't believe in magic. I read crime novels but have never robbed anyone let alone own or fire a gun.

Thank God for sites like this and congratulations to those with courage enough to set them up

[Rabbit1]

While it is fine that the members here stand for free speech and are totally against any kind of Censorship. Sadly it is the site owner and the administrator that get pulled before the judge in these lame cases. Even if you win you lose, as your site is shut down ---your server is now evidence--you have lost business and income while your name is smeared in the media. I do not blame site owners for wanting to be cautious. We can rant and rave all we like but it is not our head on the chopping block. At least Tiger asked for input---most owner would not. I support Tiger in any decision he makes on this matter.


just my opinion

[jj_frap]

Fuck America!!! Long Live Freedom!!

[Blake]

Fuck America!!! Long Live Freedom!!

Too general In my opinon, it's the specific scared ass people, not AMERICA herself. I hate the leaders of america, but america is a great framework, if it was used appriopriately. America's leaders just contradict themselves, and destroy the fabric of whatever dream america was founded on. atleast from my perspective, i was born from a mild christian mother, and that fucked me up enough, I can only imagine how destructive a complete christian follower could be, in a seat of power. (illogical argument maybe, not trying to bash christians, but alot of the hardcore ones seem to still have a major problem with limitless sex and all it's aspects. SATAN.. blah) I donno, what can you do. It worrries me cause, it always starts with something small, and with the parts of life alot of people are hesitiant to explore. I hope this doesn't lead to more of a controlled influence on expression, but, probably will. sigh.. i fear and have great hopes for the future. Such a fucked up combination of feelings. anyhoo...

[Spitman]

I agree that this site needs to adopt a stricter policy. This library is an important resource for those who enjoy, and want to share stories and ideas, whether fantasy or not, that involve bdsm. At present it appears that there is a lot of material in the library that depicts the violent and sexual abuse of children, contrary to the library’s stated policy.

I don't happen to believe that legislators have got their argument right. The dividing line between material that is allegedly conducive to offending behaviour, and material that is pure adult fantasy, is not drawn by establishing a specific and numeric age limit. Doctoring stories to massage the stated ages upwards will not solve the problem if the young characters are described in such a way that makes the stated age nonsensical, when it remains clear that the story describes the violent or sexual abuse of a pre-pubescent child.

A case in point is the story, 'The Wheel', which has just been added to the library. The story is a particularly graphic depiction of the kind of execution that did actually take place not so very long ago, in historical terms. It is also the story of a judge, one who might be regarded as a pillar of society, who is an abuser of girl children, and uses the law to destroy them once they become a little too old for his taste.

If underage characters are not allowed, we have a problem with this story. The women who are executed are described as sexually mature, even though we can question exactly how mature. The problem is the little girl who sits naked on the judges lap and allows him to abuse her, while they watch the executions.

In this particular case, telling the reader that the little girl is actually 24 years old does not solve the problem, because by decribing her as a ‘little girl’ with a ‘hairless pussy’ there is a clear suggestion of pre-pubescence, even though breasts are mentioned. The only way to ‘clean up’ the story is to remove all references to that character, or change the description to remove the combination of the words ‘little girl’ and ‘hairless pussy’.

Unfortunately, if any such changes are made, that will destroy the theme of the story. The judge is not described sympathetically, what happens to the little girl is not described in any detail, and she seems to be consenting. The central theme of the story remains the executions, and one of the girls who is executed is the central character in the story.

What we have here is actually a legitimate reason for including a description of an underage character, rather than something written to appeal to paedophiles, and the story also manages not to mention a specific age for any of the characters.

So if this story is allowed to remain, what kind of material should not?

Let’s look at a story, ‘The Perils of Pauline at Christmas’. This story involves a man dressed as Santa raping and strangling a ten year old girl, and enjoying it. It is non-consensual, brutal and unashamedly paedophilic, and its only merit is that it is a good example of the kind of thing that I would rather not find on this website.

Let’s also consider a story called Our Fun With Little Crystal. This is a non-consensual story in which a pubescent girl is kidnapped from a playground, tortured, orally raped, asphyxiated and revived, presumably in preparation for a vaginal rape in a subsequent chapter. Terms like ‘her small, growing tits’ and ‘still playing with stuffed animals’ make it clear that the victim is underage. All the way through the words ‘little’ and ‘young’ are interspersed with language saying how much fun this is, and it is clear that the child will eventually be killed. The age of the girl is not mentioned, but we are left in no doubt that this is a particularly nasty piece of paedophilia.

I think these are good examples of the kind of material we can do without. If we get this right, we will be protecting authors who might occasionally have a legitimate reason for including an underage character in a story.

[Powerone]

I personally think that the word "spit" is gross. I can only imagine the things that are dragged up and "spit" out on our clean sidewalks and beaches. I think "spitting" should be banned everywhere in our society as a filthy repulsive act.

Then for a person to be called "spitman" should be castrated and have his balls hung from the lightpost to serve as a warning to all others.

This is what happens when you start arbitrarily censoring literature because "you" don't happen to like it. Who is to decide what is "right" or "wrong"? A person called "spitman", maybe Adolf Hitler or your neighbor priest (who happens to be molesting your son on Saturday). Or maybe your politiciain, you know the one, the one that just confessed to taking $4 million in bribes, or bribes from the strip club owners from Las Vegas. or the mayor that was caught smoking crack. All of them upstanding people that are more than willing to tell you what not to read or write.

Powerone

I agree that this site needs to adopt a stricter policy. This library is an important resource for those who enjoy, and want to share stories and ideas, whether fantasy or not, that involve bdsm. At present it appears that there is a lot of material in the library that depicts the violent and sexual abuse of children, contrary to the library’s stated policy.

I don't happen to believe that legislators have got their argument right. The dividing line between material that is allegedly conducive to offending behaviour, and material that is pure adult fantasy, is not drawn by establishing a specific and numeric age limit. Doctoring stories to massage the stated ages upwards will not solve the problem if the young characters are described in such a way that makes the stated age nonsensical, when it remains clear that the story describes the violent or sexual abuse of a pre-pubescent child.

A case in point is the story, 'The Wheel', which has just been added to the library. The story is a particularly graphic depiction of the kind of execution that did actually take place not so very long ago, in historical terms. It is also the story of a judge, one who might be regarded as a pillar of society, who is an abuser of girl children, and uses the law to destroy them once they become a little too old for his taste.

If underage characters are not allowed, we have a problem with this story. The women who are executed are described as sexually mature, even though we can question exactly how mature. The problem is the little girl who sits naked on the judges lap and allows him to abuse her, while they watch the executions.

In this particular case, telling the reader that the little girl is actually 24 years old does not solve the problem, because by decribing her as a ‘little girl’ with a ‘hairless pussy’ there is a clear suggestion of pre-pubescence, even though breasts are mentioned. The only way to ‘clean up’ the story is to remove all references to that character, or change the description to remove the combination of the words ‘little girl’ and ‘hairless pussy’.

Unfortunately, if any such changes are made, that will destroy the theme of the story. The judge is not described sympathetically, what happens to the little girl is not described in any detail, and she seems to be consenting. The central theme of the story remains the executions, and one of the girls who is executed is the central character in the story.

What we have here is actually a legitimate reason for including a description of an underage character, rather than something written to appeal to paedophiles, and the story also manages not to mention a specific age for any of the characters.

So if this story is allowed to remain, what kind of material should not?

Let’s look at a story, ‘The Perils of Pauline at Christmas’. This story involves a man dressed as Santa raping and strangling a ten year old girl, and enjoying it. It is non-consensual, brutal and unashamedly paedophilic, and its only merit is that it is a good example of the kind of thing that I would rather not find on this website.

Let’s also consider a story called Our Fun With Little Crystal. This is a non-consensual story in which a pubescent girl is kidnapped from a playground, tortured, orally raped, asphyxiated and revived, presumably in preparation for a vaginal rape in a subsequent chapter. Terms like ‘her small, growing tits’ and ‘still playing with stuffed animals’ make it clear that the victim is underage. All the way through the words ‘little’ and ‘young’ are interspersed with language saying how much fun this is, and it is clear that the child will eventually be killed. The age of the girl is not mentioned, but we are left in no doubt that this is a particularly nasty piece of paedophilia.

I think these are good examples of the kind of material we can do without. If we get this right, we will be protecting authors who might occasionally have a legitimate reason for including an underage character in a story.

[Snurgla]

It is clear that America is not what it was, or perhaps that it was always something other than what it wanted to be. In a mere two centuries, the lessons of its founding fathers (like Jefferson) has been soundly forgotten. The entire nation is being set on a course to combat insecurity with governmental control. It doesn't work, it never has, and it never will.

So now the christian people and the politically correct people think that if you just forbid people to talk about recreational sex, it will go away, and not trouble them. Using the spectre of the dangerous child rapist as a reason, they take every chance they can get in limiting the freedom to think.

The problem is, as was stated earlier: If guns are outlawed, only outlaws have guns. The criminals will rape all the children they want anyway. The only ones affected are normal people, who are tied down with more and more rules of what to say and what not to say. Eventually, this will take a toll: the wealth of America as a nation is very much dependent on the right of normal people to think and to fight for their own desires.

Not that it will be a problem for long. Most extrapolations of economic growth put China's wealth per capita passing that of the US within 20 years...

In short: the choice is to see the world as it is and act accordingly, mindful of the rights of other people, or to try to shut out everything you don't "like" and pretend it doesn't exist and get others to act as you wish. The choices we make these next few years in the west determines our future in a very real way... and it's sad to see a people tamed.

Oh... and under the comics code, nothing but drek was published as comics. Self-censorship is the ultimate form of humiliation.

[Spitman]

I personally think that the word "spit" is gross. I can only imagine the things that are dragged up and "spit" out on our clean sidewalks and beaches. I think "spitting" should be banned everywhere in our society as a filthy repulsive act.

Then for a person to be called "spitman" should be castrated and have his balls hung from the lightpost to serve as a warning to all others.

This is what happens when you start arbitrarily censoring literature because "you" don't happen to like it. Who is to decide what is "right" or "wrong"? A person called "spitman", maybe Adolf Hitler or your neighbor priest (who happens to be molesting your son on Saturday). Or maybe your politician, you know the one, the one that just confessed to taking $4 million in bribes, or bribes from the strip club owners from Las Vegas. or the mayor that was caught smoking crack. All of them upstanding people that are more than willing to tell you what not to read or write.

Powerone

Well, Powerone, I don't think I'll comment on your nick. It is rather more to the point that you criticised mine (not that you understood it), rather than coming up with any sensible argument based on what I actually said. That says more about your belief in your own capacity to dominate, than your ability to focus on what this is really all about. I suggest that you don't give up your day job and go into politics.

I am opposed to irrational censorship based on references to the age of fictional characters in creative work, because it ignores other descriptive terms that give more of a clue to the intentions of the author, but also because it ignores the fact that references to the ages of characters can only be given any interpretation based on their context. If you had bothered to read what I said, that should have been very clear from the argument, which was supported by three good examples.

If a website to which I contribute my own creative work has a policy on the kind of material that is accepted, I see that as a part of my contract with the owners of the website, and I am not being unreasonable if I complain when it appears that this policy has not been implemented, especially if that means that I may be legally in jeopardy by association.

In this case I have not complained. It is the new owner of the site who found that the policy was previously not enforced properly, and intends to rectify this, and I gave my support. External censorship by governments does not come into it. This is a matter of free choice on the part of the website owner, who is not charging for access to the Library, is entitled to choose what kind of material the site will be allowed to contain, and is also entitled to be secured from any legal risk that might arise if the stated policy is not enforced. I think we can have a great deal of freedom on this website, if we don't push our luck.

I was arguing that there might be a case for excluding some material on different grounds from specific references to age, and that if this was done, many authors might actually have more freedom in here. Unfortunately Powerone has 35 stories in the Library, which seem to focus mainly on the rape and torture of unwilling female victims, who are often clearly underage, on the basis of descriptive detail other than the specific mention of age. So if my suggestions were implemented, a lot of his stories might have to go.

As a writer of some pretty extreme fantasy material of my own, I am hardly in a position to argue in favour of the kind of censorship religious zealots would prefer to see. There is a lot of unique creative writing in this library. It covers a spectrum of sexual preferences, fetishes and fantasies, and some of it is very good indeed, in my opinion.

Of course different people vary in their view of what makes a scene the ultimate erotic fantasy. Sexual orientation is far more than a matter of gender identity. But why should so many of us lose what, as adults, we regard as a wonderful erotic resource, just because a few people want to contribute stories about beating up and raping kids!

[ghostsblood]

Rape is illegal; regardless of the victims age. Murder is illegal, regardless of the victims age; yet crime novels and horror stories abound. Whats the difference? Appart from us being amature writers?


=^_^=

[Blake]

well if you look at it that way, it's just that society is afraid of sex, and gives off a 'ok' degree of what sex is. Anything outside of that is 'satan' or.. er, whatever term they are using now.

But you can't compare rape and murder in my opinon, they're too different. Every crime isn't under the definition of a crime. Crimes is a category lumping together aspects that have similar qualities. But in truth, they hold nothing of the same, just a general term of violation or something along those lines. Assault of the 'life' of a person. But that assault comes in different ways, physcological damages are different. I donno, the added fear from society of sex adds to the intensity to sex crimes. For murder, they slip into that category themselves constantly, and they make it very vauge. Execution, war, or whatever. Tools of society, and they use killing, so they're more used to it. So, we are more used tt, and it is accepted more as a form of 'expression' in pieces of work(fictional). I mean, i figure society doesnt even classify us as animals really. We fuck, and we do it however we do it, but they'd want us to follow a system to get to having sex. Heavy dating, getting to know the person for X amount of Time, Marriage, all the drawn pathways they throw out, which does jack all for most people I figure who actually accept who they are, but not doing what they set out for us starts the iffy process. And the further down you go with adding aspects to it, pain,(in itself, society considers it bad(atleast, in a broad term, and refuses to see the applicational aspects of it)) control,(want a democractc sex life ... or something, i donno), being absolutly human(cant do that, they have a weird definition of what a human is, and what life is, so that just screws up that the infiinity we hold, and they throw definitions). I donno.

Sigh, i could rip that apart myself.. Cause murder isn't murder. There are varying degrees of murder. Depths. I suppose, society is more familiar with the depths of pain + murder, as opposed to pain + sex, or just sex in general. They pretend to be something in society, and sex lets you out, so i figure, they make it indecent to do it, so they can lie to themselves that they are perfection, and people who truly accept life as an infinite experience of depth, well, become outcasts. i always thought the internet would be a safe haven, but .. yeah.

A suit man is proper, defined, specific, percise, and doesn't take depth risks. Sex is a depth, if it's explored properly without that nasty cloud hesitation that's beaten in. (I mean they cattle us to have sex at X age, instead of letting the natural life desires play out. And then, what is indecent, hell, even anal sex is 'err'. I mean, they screw with the basics and claiming them to be indecent, applications of instruments and other forms of sensations to sex, (outside the boarders of bubble baths and calm loving aspects) are evil)

I donno. Rape is, sex + pain + violation + control + destruction + 'self loss' in alot of cases. Society kinda considers all to be bad. But, society doesn't understand that all bad things, are not bad, it's only the way they are being used that makes them bad. Those feelings and sensations can take you to places inside yourself and unlock depths you've never seen. Self loss in itself can lead to a greater understanding of yourself and life as you regain to find who you are, sheding away the shit that you were molded with. Destruction can let you feel shear removal of all your defenses, your pride, your dignity, and let you feel something you couldn't normally feel. Ramble.. you can see things from different perspectives.

heh, i suppose though just the reading of someone else being raped against their will 100% is a turn on in itself. Seeing someone literally being ripped from a world and used, abused, destroyed, and made to serve is a power lust that we can't find to well in society itself. (or.. it's just hot and that's that?) Whatever your fancy for it, it's all text. It's all written mind expressions of desires that many hold. Sure, it gives details and ideas into words that are just kept in lurking feelings you never feel possibly(for some), and when it moves to words it can move to action. But that's a choice. It's not the writing that's doing that, it's the person. If the person deciedes to truly rape someone because of reading something revolving around rape, well that's the persons fault, not the writing. (I mean a pure rape, not a consentual rape)
Society tries to protect by keeping truths away from us. Well... ok sure.. good idea, if you enjoy living in a life of limits, set by someone who probably lives in a life of no limits.

They can never do it directly, they start with small direct things. Children are always a great place to start. In my opinon, a child should not have access to the internet. If they do, it's up to the PARENTS to monitor their children. Someone brought up a good point, schools do research, and if they type in 'slaves' and it brings up bdsm, well there's that. Well... then the educational system needs to create a better filtration system. Children are the greatest tools used. Fuck the children, since when did a child become more than an adult? we're all the same, except for the weakness and innocence factors. Well.. if the internet is that bad of a place, get more books and restrict the internet to the children. Don't restrict expression to our entire race.

Sigh, chaos post.



Yeah... random opinons. i dont belong in this world.

[Alex Bragi]

Hello Spitman,

By the way, I don't mind your name.

I found your posting very interesting and thought provoking.

I'd like to comment on a couple of things here.

>I agree that this site needs to adopt a stricter policy. This library is an important resource for those who enjoy, and want to share stories and ideas, whether fantasy or not, that involve bdsm. At present it appears that there is a lot of material in the library that depicts the violent and sexual abuse of children, contrary to the library’s stated policy.
Yes, that's not really what bdsm is about is it? Safe, sane, and consensual, that's what bdsm is based on.

>A case in point is the story, 'The Wheel', which has just been added to the library. The story is a particularly graphic depiction of the kind of execution that did actually take place not so very long ago, in historical terms. It is also the story of a judge, one who might be regarded as a pillar of society, who is an abuser of girl children, and uses the law to destroy them once they become a little too old for his taste....
>What we have here is actually a legitimate reason for including a description of an underage character, rather than something written to appeal to paedophiles, and the story also manages not to mention a specific age for any of the characters.

Mmm...pretty heavy stuff I agree. Oddly, I have a lot less of a problem with this kind of story, that's a total fantasy, as opposed to those that almost read like a step by step instruction manual for infantophiles and paedophiles.

Oh dear, I've gone and used the dreaded 'I" and "P' words again!

>Let’s look at a story, ‘The Perils of Pauline at Christmas’. This story involves a man dressed as Santa raping and strangling a ten year old girl, and enjoying it. It is non-consensual, brutal and unashamedly paedophilic, and its only merit is that it is a good example of the kind of thing that I would rather not find on this website.

This is an example of the kind of story that I dont' like. Every time someone bring it up, and especially at this time of year, I get frightening thoughts of some dirty old bastard reading it, and then trotting off to find a job as a store Santa.

>
>Let’s also consider a story called Our Fun With Little Crystal. This is a non-consensual story in which a pubescent girl is kidnapped from a playground, tortured, orally raped, asphyxiated and revived, presumably in preparation for a vaginal rape in a subsequent chapter. Terms like ‘her small, growing tits’ and ‘still playing with stuffed animals’ make it clear that the victim is underage. All the way through the words ‘little’ and ‘young’ are interspersed with language saying how much fun this is, and it is clear that the child will eventually be killed. The age of the girl is not mentioned, but we are left in no doubt that this is a particularly nasty piece of paedophilia.

This is one that I have problem with also. I know many people will argue and say: "What about reading a story about murder?" But, how many people will associate themselves with the perpetrator of that kind of story? How many will walk out onto the street and say: "Fuck, what I wouldn’t do to have a chance to kill him/her..." ?

Censorship is a tough topic, with a huge grey area.

This is an interesting debate and certainly there have been some very good arguments for and against it here.

[H Dean]

[QUOTE=Snurgla]It is clear that America is not what it was, or perhaps that it was always something other than what it wanted to be. In a mere two centuries, the lessons of its founding fathers (like Jefferson) has been soundly forgotten. The entire nation is being set on a course to combat insecurity with governmental control. It doesn't work, it never has, and it never will.QUOTE]

I would tend to disagree with the notion that the US is not what it once was or that it is something less than the founding fathers intended.

The USA is a country in constant evolution. The founding fathers realized that, in order for a country to grow, it must evolve. With this knowledge they created the three branches of government. With each branch being able to tether the other to keep it from growing too powerful they operate much as the founding fathers intended.

You see, they realized that the country would have an ebb and flow, that it would be a constant pendulum swinging from right to left.

The fact of that matter is that the USA of today is far more liberal than the USA of a few years ago in many regards while being far more conservative in other regards. The fact is that we tend to keep more of the positive aspects of liberal and conservative than we keep of the negative.

The situation regarded censorship is hardly any more harsh than it has been at any time in the last 20 years. It is just at the forefront today. Tomorrow, it will sneak into the back of the line while other things come forward.

Granted, many of the government representatives are of questionable honor. However, on must consider who we have to blame for them reaching their positions of power.

[H Dean]

[QUOTE=Snurgla]It is clear that America is not what it was, or perhaps that it was always something other than what it wanted to be. In a mere two centuries, the lessons of its founding fathers (like Jefferson) has been soundly forgotten. The entire nation is being set on a course to combat insecurity with governmental control. It doesn't work, it never has, and it never will.QUOTE]

I would tend to disagree with the notion that the US is not what it once was or that it is something less than the founding fathers intended.

The USA is a country in constant evolution. The founding fathers realized that, in order for a country to grow, it must evolve. With this knowledge they created the three branches of government. With each branch being able to tether the other to keep it from growing too powerful they operate much as the founding fathers intended.

You see, they realized that the country would have an ebb and flow, that it would be a constant pendulum swinging from right to left.

The fact of that matter is that the USA of today is far more liberal than the USA of a few years ago in many regards while being far more conservative in other regards. The fact is that we tend to keep more of the positive aspects of liberal and conservative than we keep of the negative.

The situation regarded censorship is hardly any more harsh than it has been at any time in the last 20 years. It is just at the forefront today. Tomorrow, it will sneak into the back of the line while other things come forward.

Granted, many of the government representatives are of questionable honor. However, on must consider who we have to blame for them reaching their positions of power.

[ghostsblood]

Consider for a moment "Amercian Psycho".

In my eyes it is the perfect example of neo-litterature providing a view of such attrocities (rape, murder, rape-murder, murder-rape etc) from the protagonists POV.

Is it still legal over there?

I mention it to cover a few points here. Firstly: It provides a character who performs acts of depravity that would eclipse most stories here, and while doing so Ellis puts us in his mind and manages to draw us onto his side. This is not an easy thing to do considering the depths which he goes to brutalise his victims.

Also, despite the sexual nature of his attrocities, it is not a sexually charged novel, it is simply a thriller/horror (To some with a finer appreciation; a deeply disturbed black-comedy). Which for my 2cents is what I write, I have been quite obviously inspired by Ellis's style, one day I might actually be able to provide a story line to go with my scenes.

As for "rape isn't murder" of course it isn't. But they are the same sides of different' die. On one hand you have sexual abuse which starts with wolf whistles and peaks at rape. On the other hand we have violence which starts with name calling and ends with murder. Both are crimes at the top of theire respective food chains and both are a total destruction of the victims liberties.

To write about either subject is much the same. To provide a protagonist/s that the reader empathises with, despite their personal feelings, is a skill that should be appreciated not punished. To provide children as the victims is more a sign of the times than anything else... there is no end to the fiction on paper and on TV that provide acts of sexual violence against adults; so much so that it has lost its edge, it has become blase, so we must push it further to achive the gut wrenching horror that American Psycho gave in spades.

To make a point, Americal Psycho comes wrapped in plastic with a big ol' R printed on it (over here it does anyway). Why can't every story with graffic sexual violence get the same treatment? Who (other than christians) wakes up and decides it is their civic duty to force their own beliefs on someone else; truly a perversion of personal liberties.