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  1. #1
    Falling deep...
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    and, but and commas

    I was always taught that you should not precede 'and' by a comma, since it is a conjunction which provides the space/break between two phrases/clauses in itself. Similarly for but, when it is in the middle of a sentence. Ruby certainly corrects to this form.

    However (and I am told one should not start a sentence with however, nevertheless, etc., too - but personally I think that is rubbish and shall continue to do so, so there!), I believe it is more and more prevelant to use the comma before but and and where they are conjunctions: what do people think? Is this acceptable style, nowadays? Is it a change in the language, and (see!) we should all start doing it? Or is it just a really bad habit I have???


    Thank you all for your opinions!

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  2. #2
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    It all depends on what style manual you look at. Some say use a comma some say not. As long as you are consistent, its not really anything to fret over.

    Should you ever be published, they have editors that will put the commas in or take the commas out to conform to their standards.


    rose
    “To be completely woman you need a master and in him, a compass for your life. You need a man you can look up to and respect. If you dethrone him, it is no wonder that you are discontented, and discontented women are not loved for long.”
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  3. #3
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    In other words, do whatever you want because the editor will fix it the way they like anyway.

  4. #4
    cariad
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    I was taught to the same school as you moptop, but I have since been told by professional writers that the rules are there to be kept, unless delibrately broken.

    cariad

  5. #5
    Happy
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    I was also taught to never precede a conjunction with a comma. It's one of those little things that drives me crazy to see, along with bad spelling and the use of "apostrophe s" for plurals. I have gone so far as to walk into a business and tell them that their sign is wrong. Perhaps I need to get a life...LOL.
    Working too much....and unfortunately not online as much as I'd like.

  6. #6
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    Not being native to the English language but fairly fluent in it, I'd say it's a matter of the level of style you're aiming for (and we have similar queries in Swedish). If a comma goes in before and, yet or but as phrase conjunctions, it comes out a bit more elevated - yes, could I even say it sounds kind of super-elevated, as if the writer is trying a little extra to achieve slow and imposing prose. Wasn't there a time in the 18th-19th centuries when it was more of a rule for high-style written language to give that comma before and etc?

    I wouldn't use such commas within dialogue or even in inner monologue-style retelling.

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  7. #7
    cariad
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    On the matter of apostrophes, am I the only person who thinks it should be Instructors' Place and Writers' Block?

    cariad

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by cariad View Post
    On the matter of apostrophes, am I the only person who thinks it should be Instructors' Place and Writers' Block?

    cariad
    its always bothered me, too.
    “To be completely woman you need a master and in him, a compass for your life. You need a man you can look up to and respect. If you dethrone him, it is no wonder that you are discontented, and discontented women are not loved for long.”
    - Marlene Dietrich


    NOTE TO SELF: "Sadistic rat bastard, Sir!" is not a safeword!


  9. #9
    slave Goddess
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    Well, writer's block (with just one writer) is this familiar byword for the author out of touch with his stream of writing, so if you put Writers' Block, the pun is half lost. Instead you get the less cheerful image of a cell block full of aspiring (submissive?) writers in hobble ankle chains.

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  10. #10
    Falling deep...
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    Quote Originally Posted by gagged_Louise View Post
    Instead you get the less cheerful image of a cell block full of aspiring (submissive?) writers in hobble ankle chains.

    This is a less cheerful image? Sounds fun to me!!!

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  11. #11
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    Looks around, this is my first post as well.

    My biggest Grammer problem is ... US spell checkers, or spelling. Drives me nuts.

    Colour - has a u in it. Any time I have web page issues first thing I check is how I have spelled colour.

    As a really bad speller, it is the one thing that can kill a story for me. I read so fast that a paragraph down, my brain goes what the! Leshes or something was the last one.

    Weirdly, I was always taught that a comma is used around a part of a sentence that means the sentence can be read without it. I do use it before and, but it is a question of flow for but. A long time ago, in the same place, I was taught that a full stop is three seconds, and a comma is one so when you read your work, try that. I find it often calls for massive rewrites.

  12. #12
    cariad
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    Well, I have changed Instructors' and a few other things. I can see Louise's point about the play on words with Writer's. Basically, it is 'wrong' both ways, and the pedant who lurks somewhere in me is still inclined to change it, but will be interested in other views.

    cariad

  13. #13
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    cariad, are you the one who fixed the spelling of "begining" too? Thanks if so.
    Clevernick: Serial Expatriate. Sublimated Writer. Niggly editor. Bdsm publisher.
    See also this library's "Obnoxious Housemate (published as "From Zealot to Harlot")",
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  14. #14
    cariad
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    Yep, if there are any more out there please let me know.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by moptop View Post
    I was always taught that you should not precede 'and' by a comma, since it is a conjunction which provides the space/break between two phrases/clauses in itself. Similarly for but, when it is in the middle of a sentence. Ruby certainly corrects to this form.
    I do, don't I? Although, there are times when I don't.

    In my business writing, the style chosen often depends on the style guide that is preferred by my clients.

    Rose is right on target. Pick one method and use it consistantly.

    However (and I am told one should not start a sentence with however, nevertheless, etc., too - but personally I think that is rubbish and shall continue to do so, so there!), I believe it is more and more prevelant to use the comma before but and and where they are conjunctions: what do people think? Is this acceptable style, nowadays? Is it a change in the language, and (see!) we should all start doing it? Or is it just a really bad habit I have???

    Thank you all for your opinions!
    Who says you can't start a sentence with "however, nevertheless", etc? Strunk and White give their approvals to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by cariad
    Well, I have changed Instructors' and a few other things. I can see Louise's point about the play on words with Writer's. Basically, it is 'wrong' both ways, and the pedant who lurks somewhere in me is still inclined to change it, but will be interested in other views.
    I can even see it being named, The Writers Block, as in a place for more than one writer.

    Me? I'm at one with my duality. I switch, therefore I am.
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  16. #16
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    Consistency

    Consistency is never my strong point, unfortunately--I'll always need an editor. But with the series comma before 'and', I tend to write as I'd read it aloud, for that particular instance.

    I suspect one reason people have complimented the "flow" of my writing is that I hear myself reading aloud as I write it. If I put a pause in, a comma goes there. If prosody, rhythm, and flow require it, then a comma is born.

    Yes, that was a deliberate example. In my case, though, I almost always insert the optional commas. Not for reasons of consistency, but because the voicing feels rushed without them.

    Hi Ruby!
    Clevernick: Serial Expatriate. Sublimated Writer. Niggly editor. Bdsm publisher.
    See also this library's "Obnoxious Housemate (published as "From Zealot to Harlot")",
    and of course bdsmbooks.com

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clevernick View Post
    Consistency is never my strong point, unfortunately--I'll always need an editor. But with the series comma before 'and', I tend to write as I'd read it aloud, for that particular instance.

    I suspect one reason people have complimented the "flow" of my writing is that I hear myself reading aloud as I write it. If I put a pause in, a comma goes there. If prosody, rhythm, and flow require it, then a comma is born.

    Yes, that was a deliberate example. In my case, though, I almost always insert the optional commas. Not for reasons of consistency, but because the voicing feels rushed without them.

    Hi Ruby!

    In Word you can actually set the options to check for commas at the end of the list and either always require them, or always reject them. I use this to help me with my consistancy in writing.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhabbi View Post
    In Word you can actually set the options to check for commas at the end of the list and either always require them, or always reject them. I use this to help me with my consistancy in writing.
    Cool idea and very quickly offered! That's a Word feature I didn't know about. My colleague also recently pointed out that it's possible to make Word autocorrect your pet errors too. I love that idea.

    Thanks, Rhabbi! Word can now become an assistant Grammar Nazi second class....
    Clevernick: Serial Expatriate. Sublimated Writer. Niggly editor. Bdsm publisher.
    See also this library's "Obnoxious Housemate (published as "From Zealot to Harlot")",
    and of course bdsmbooks.com

  19. #19
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    Hi Clevernick!

    Great idea, Rhabbi.

  20. #20
    cariad
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    *creeping in and hiding the writer's' block's' apostrophes.*

    *hiding them under Ruby's paddle and waits to see what happens*

  21. #21
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    We've been robbed! Our Apostrophe is missing. Call 911! Alert Scotland Yard! Bring in Walker, Texas Ranger!
    “To be completely woman you need a master and in him, a compass for your life. You need a man you can look up to and respect. If you dethrone him, it is no wonder that you are discontented, and discontented women are not loved for long.”
    - Marlene Dietrich


    NOTE TO SELF: "Sadistic rat bastard, Sir!" is not a safeword!


  22. #22
    cariad
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    *points to Ruby*

    She stole them Miss, was all 'er idea.

  23. #23
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    Hmmmm...

    I suggested the name be "The Writers Block"
    without the "the", it does look like it's missing something.

    Another alternative might be:

    "A Place for Writers"

    I'm sure if we put our heads together and come up with a few more names, we could put this to a vote.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    Hmmmm...

    I suggested the name be "The Writers Block"
    without the "the", it does look like it's missing something.

    Another alternative might be:

    "A Place for Writers"

    I'm sure if we put our heads together and come up with a few more names, we could put this to a vote.
    Smut Scribblers Anonymous
    “To be completely woman you need a master and in him, a compass for your life. You need a man you can look up to and respect. If you dethrone him, it is no wonder that you are discontented, and discontented women are not loved for long.”
    - Marlene Dietrich


    NOTE TO SELF: "Sadistic rat bastard, Sir!" is not a safeword!


  25. #25
    cariad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon's muse View Post
    Smut Scribblers Anonymous
    Verbal Creationists?

  26. #26
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    Fish swim
    Birds fly
    Writers block

    yup seems all write to me.
    Clevernick: Serial Expatriate. Sublimated Writer. Niggly editor. Bdsm publisher.
    See also this library's "Obnoxious Housemate (published as "From Zealot to Harlot")",
    and of course bdsmbooks.com

  27. #27
    Covered in Orangeblossoms
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    "The House of Dean" has a nice ring to it.
    For the Complete Version of "The Family Pet" and my latest story "Becoming Bimbo" please visit my author page on BDSM Books.
    H Dean on BDSM Books.

  28. #28
    cariad
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    There is a house in the library
    They call the House of Dean
    And it's been the ruin of many a poor scribe
    And God I know I'm one

    Oh mother tell your children
    Not to do what I have done
    Spend your lives in sin and misery
    In the House of that mean ol' Dean

  29. #29
    Covered in Orangeblossoms
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    This is how it should be!
    For the Complete Version of "The Family Pet" and my latest story "Becoming Bimbo" please visit my author page on BDSM Books.
    H Dean on BDSM Books.

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