Gor & largely the Gorean Lifestyle.

[His_blizzard]

"The basic points of the conversation is that what bothers them the most about gorean philosophy is that it is to structured for them. They do not want a relationship based on protocol since it is to much trouble. They basically don't want to play by set rules but to just make it up as they go along."


"My problem isn't the rules of Gor per se (as I understand them), more the rigidity of saying "This is the only basic format acceptable if you want to call yourself Gorean". For me the entire point is finding a structure that works for the individual. Wide, sweeping conclusions about "what works" are by default, destined to fail when put under scrutiny, sexual philosophy or otherwise."

"My problem isn't the rules of Gor per se (as I understand them), more the rigidity of saying "This is the only basic format acceptable if you want to call yourself Gorean". For me the entire point is finding a structure that works for the individual. Wide, sweeping conclusions about "what works" are by default, destined to fail when put under scrutiny, sexual philosophy or otherwise."

Well, I may just be lashed to a Tarn saddle and flown off to die in the Sardars, or perhaps a harsher fate and returned to Earth, but I believe Master and I are living our union are Goreans with a flexability that I have never found to be unacceptable to fellow Goreans at all. At least those I know that have truly embraced the principles of the philosophy taken from the books and not those that have one; learned all of Gor from role play and bogus sites and never even cracked open a Norman book, or two; have a little leaf urt roaming their brains and truly believe there is a planet Gor and that someday they will ride a Tarn. NOT that there is anything wrong with that, mind you (before I am accused of being a rigid, judgemental Gorean) but those folk are the only ones have had problems with in the past.
I am sure that there are those amongst other Goreans that would cringe at the fact that I am neither free companion nor kajira, but a combination of both. That is how my Warrior wants it and that is how it will be! To me THAT is Gorean.

"How important is discipline (rules, protocols, etc.) in a BDSM relationship? Is it just something that you only want to impose in the play room or should it be part of the whole lifestyle.""

I live by Master's discipline 24/7. It is my life. It is what I accepted when I begged his collar. Yes it has to be watered down on "the outside" and of course I am not waiting at the door each evening naked with my leash in my mouth. I am not shared amongst his friends (yet *giggle*) and he forbids me to be branded. I have been subjected to discipline straight from the books at times, of course. It is a harsher union, yes. "Aftercare" for me is often being permitted to have a drink of water when I am getting one for him after we have had a session. A Gorean Master can be gruff and seem unromantic at times but also just like the books, when a Gorean Master hugs and cuddles his girl , it is the most anazing thing on earth. And again, remember this is real life. My Gorean Warrior is also the port in all of my storms, my shoulder to cry on, the one I laugh (and cry) hardest with, my most fierce protector and my very best friend. There are many days the Gorean firmness is put on a back burner because I need more nilla at the moment. It is a discipline of my heart and soul, not just the whip. And for the record, I consider myself more D/s than BDSM. If I had to pick one over the other, I would have to pick a D/s life without the "play" of BDSM. It is what fulfills me and makes me complete. I am not ashamed to be a Gorean woman; I am damn proud of it! I also think everyone has the right to live this D/s or BDSM lifestyle in whatever way fulfills them too, no matter how "different" it may seem. I have always felt that way about religion, and that is how I feel about this. Just my 40 or 50 copper tarns worth... ~blizz~

[TheDeSade]

I would like to throw out another question, just to muddy the waters and really throw a monkey wrench in the works. . . .

Are thos who adopt and live a Gorean lifestyle any more or less eccentric than those who chose to immerse themselves in such lifestyles as the Star Wars iniverse or the Star Trek lifestyles. I know individuals who speak fluent Klingon, wear the uniforms and civilian dress and atempt to adopt the customs and lifestyles of their respective adoptive alternate universe. Just because those who adopt Gor tend toward a BDSM style relationship doesn't or shouldn't make them any less acceptable?

Now, I may be missing the point completely here. I frequently do. And I readily admit that I have never read a Gor book in it entirety. When I was young I was a huge Edgar Rice BUrroughs fan and I read all the Tarzan, Mars and Venus books. I loved them. I have no doubt that had I discovered or had access to the Gor books Iwould have devoured then just a readily. Maybe that would have influenced my later development.

My problem with adopting a Gorean lifestyle is that I have enough trouble dealing with the rules and regulations of our normal society much less those of a self inflicted Gorean society. I have no problem with those who wish to delve into such, be it Gor, Star Wars, Star Trek, etc. Its just not my thing! Hell, I have enough trouble with ENglish much less learning another language especially one that is artificially crafted.

THo', as I go off on another tange nt in this rambling stream of consiousness post, if Gor is anything like the Frazzetti art that I am familiar with, I might sign up anyway if I get a body like the warriors.

TDS

[Ironwulf]

I would like to throw out another question, just to muddy the waters and really throw a monkey wrench in the works. . . .

Yes, I think its fair to say you have done that. We would like to talk about differences in training and how Dom/Masters and subs/slaves feel about the differences in the lifestyles in this thread if we can. We want feedback and are glad to get it but can we please stay on topic.

Are thos who adopt and live a Gorean lifestyle any more or less eccentric than those who chose to immerse themselves in such lifestyles as the Star Wars iniverse or the Star Trek lifestyles.

Are those in the BDSM community that dress up in Biker motif, as Ponys, as babies, in latex, as doctors or nurses, Romans, or any other role play any more or less eccentric than those who chose to immerse themselves in such lifestyles as the Star Wars Universe or the Star Trek lifestyles?

To say that the gorean lifestyle is about walking around in some uniform with a sword or wearing a mask to look like some alien is ridiculous. I have never seen anyone who thinks they are a Preist-King or Gorean Warrior except possibly on halloween.

As applied to non-fictional individuals, the word Gorean means an adherent of the philosophies espoused in Norman's writings, especially someone who lives a lifestyle based on this philosophy.

Just because those who adopt Gor tend toward a BDSM style relationship doesn't or shouldn't make them any less acceptable?

Goreans tend toward a BDSM style relationship? Goreans are always in a D/s style relationship.

My problem with adopting a Gorean lifestyle is that I have enough trouble dealing with the rules and regulations of our normal society much less those of a self inflicted Gorean society.

You would rather there were no rules at all, even those imposed in a safe sane consensual BDSM society but are willing to except those even though it is a struggle. However, since Gorean philosophy requires that both Master and slave be disciplined by their very nature, that is not acceptable for you.

Ok, good on topic.

Hell, I have enough trouble with ENglish much less learning another language especially one that is artificially crafted.

Well, you will want to stay away from computers. Talk about having to learn artificial languages.

The current question (so you don't have to backup a page to see it) under discussion is:

"How important is discipline (rules, protocols, etc.) in a BDSM relationship? Is it just something that you only want to impose in the play room or should it be part of the whole lifestyle."

[His_blizzard]

My problem with adopting a Gorean lifestyle is that I have enough trouble dealing with the rules and regulations of our normal society much less those of a self inflicted Gorean society. I have no problem with those who wish to delve into such, be it Gor, Star Wars, Star Trek, etc. Its just not my thing! Hell, I have enough trouble with ENglish much less learning another language especially one that is artificially crafted. TDS

My goodness DeSade, I would think Gor was created just for a man like you. Most true Gorean Masters that I have met, and now it is my pleasure to count Ironwulf amongst them, make their own rules and break those that they cannot bear to live by. And as far as another language, other than the traditional Gorean greeting, "Tal" and to call a slave kajira, all the Goreans that I know speak the language of the earth country they were born to. While you are still recuperating, you really should try and read Tarnsman of Gor, the first book. I think you would enjoy it and it may even be available to read online.
By the way TDS? You would look magnificent in the saddle of a great Tarn. *smile* ~blizz~

[Guest 91108]

As applied to non-fictional individuals, the word Gorean means an adherent of the philosophies espoused in Norman's writings, especially someone who lives a lifestyle based on this philosophy.


Quote:
Just because those who adopt Gor tend toward a BDSM style relationship doesn't or shouldn't make them any less acceptable?

Goreans tend toward a BDSM style relationship? Goreans are always in a D/s style relationship.


Quote:
My problem with adopting a Gorean lifestyle is that I have enough trouble dealing with the rules and regulations of our normal society much less those of a self inflicted Gorean society.

You would rather there were no rules at all, even those imposed in a safe sane consensual BDSM society but are willing to except those even though it is a struggle. However, since Gorean philosophy requires that both Master and slave be disciplined by their very nature, that is not acceptable for you.

Yes. exactly. thanks Ironwulf and Bliz for your posts so far.

[Timberwolf]

DeSade:

"I would like to throw out another question, just to muddy the waters and really throw a monkey wrench in the works. . . .

Are thos who adopt and live a Gorean lifestyle any more or less eccentric than those who chose to immerse themselves in such lifestyles as the Star Wars iniverse or the Star Trek lifestyles. I know individuals who speak fluent Klingon, wear the uniforms and civilian dress and atempt to adopt the customs and lifestyles of their respective adoptive alternate universe. Just because those who adopt Gor tend toward a BDSM style relationship doesn't or shouldn't make them any less acceptable?"

Funny about the Star Trek thing. I'm a huge fan (as in I have all ten moveis, and 14 of the 28 production seasons of the franchise on DVD, and I've not finished yet ), and I've had the conversation before, in relation to Gor. Someone opposed to it said "you love it, but you don't actually walk around in a uniform or anything do you?", and my answer was basically no, I don't. There's "enjoying the work" and then there's living vicariously through it.

Ironwulf:

"To say that the gorean lifestyle is about walking around in some uniform with a sword or wearing a mask to look like some alien is ridiculous. I have never seen anyone who thinks they are a Preist-King or Gorean Warrior except possibly on halloween."

I've read a blog or two that begs to differ. In fact that's where the debate involving the Star Trek/Gor comparison with a friend came from in the first place. But that leads me to another point.

I think perhaps one of the best points I've had made to me on this is that with the internet, there are people in *every* group that are taking things as far as they can, and that the whole of a group should not be judged as such. The problem is those people are normally the most vocal (despite having the least to say). Indeed, much as BDSM as a whole is misjudged by people who don't know what it really is, I'm sure Gor suffers much the same. Partially that's due to the kind of imagery that is out there that happens to sell, as it really doesn't give a good sense of what either actually is.

EDIT: I want to make it clear that "despite having the least to say" line is in no way in reference to anyone in this thread, or even on this site. It was designed as a comment about the sheer amount of free speech available on the internet, and what certain people use it for. On re-reading it I thought it might be best to clairify that to avoid any confusion.

[His_blizzard]

I think perhaps one of the best points I've had made to me on this is that with the internet, there are people in *every* group that are taking things as far as they can, and that the whole of a group should not be judged as such. The problem is those people are normally the most vocal (despite having the least to say). Indeed, much as BDSM as a whole is misjudged by people who don't know what it really is, I'm sure Gor suffers much the same. Partially that's due to the kind of imagery that is out there that happens to sell, as it really doesn't give a good sense of what either actually is.

***HUG*** Yes...and Thank you! ~blizz~

[Timberwolf]

***HUG*** Yes...and Thank you! ~blizz~

You're quite welcome. And lovely avatar, if I may say so.

[Ironwulf]

@Timberwolf

Yes, I agree with all your points. It is very true there are people out there living as close as they can to the natural gorean way. I have been told by people I trust that there are several small gorean communities in the USA that are doing that very thing.

Having said that we must remember that we are talking about a handful of people out of the total number of people who practice some gorean style of BDSM.

I have met quite a few goreans, some very commited to the gorean lifestyle but as I said before none that were trying to actually live like they would be living on Gor in the phsyical sense but philosophically, yes indeed.

As you said "there are people in *every* group that are taking things as far as they can, and that the whole of a group should not be judged as such".

[His_blizzard]

You're quite welcome. And lovely avatar, if I may say so.

{{{ blush }}} Why thank you.....

[Ironwulf]

Thanks bliz for your comments that opened this page. Very well stated.

How important is discipline (rules, protocols, etc.) in a BDSM relationship? Is it just something that you only want to impose in the play room or should it be part of the whole lifestyle.

As far as rules and protocols go, I believe they are needed in some form or another in any BDSM relationship. To what extent they are employed depends on the type of relationship the couple has decided to have.

The gorean style does outwardly seem to promote rules and protocols to a greater extent then other BDSM styles. I wonder if that is based upon the perception that gorean protocols are silly, or if there is truely a difference in this regard.

I say this because I have known some old school Masters that had an awful lot of rules and protocols a girl had to learn. Thinking back they sure seemed as complicated and as numerous as any gorean Masters.

For me personal discipline is the foundation that a D/s relationship must naturally be built upon. Without it I can not see how anyone could be having anything other then kinky sex.

This probably more then anything else shows my gorean side.

If a Master does not have the discipline to control himself then he sure should not be accepting an exchange of power that would be putting him in control of someone else.

A slave must also have the discipline to allow herself to be taught otherwise her Master is wasting his time. The old saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make her drink" applies.

Many times I have heard people say, I can make her learn, I would have to disagree. You may make her "do" but to really learn is something she has to want to do herself.

That brings up another topic:

"I don't want her to think, I just want her to do what she is told".

Your thoughts?

[His_blizzard]

That brings up another topic:

"I don't want her to think, I just want her to do what she is told".

Your thoughts?

I will answer with 2 of my favorite quotes from the Gor books:

"One of the pleasant things about owning a slave," I said, "is the opportunity to converse with her, to listen to her, to hear her express herself, her feelings and ideas. One can learn much from a slave. Many slaves, like yourself, are highly intelligent. They can express themselves articulately, clearly, trenchantly, and lyrically. It is a great pleasure to talk with them."

Page 203 - Beasts of Gor

"Do you know, ultimately," I asked, "who will prove to be your one best trainer?" "No, Master," she said. "You, yourself," I said, "the girl, herself, eager to please, imaginative and intelligent, monitoring her own performances and feelings, striving lovingly to improve and refine them. You yourself will be largely responsible for making yourself the superb slave you will become."

Page 210 - Savages of Gor

Nuff said... ~blizz~

[Guest 91108]

The gorean style does outwardly seem to promote rules and protocols to a greater extent then other BDSM styles. I wonder if that is based upon the perception that gorean protocols are silly, or if there is truely a difference in this regard.

I say this because I have known some old school Masters that had an awful lot of rules and protocols a girl had to learn. Thinking back they sure seemed as complicated and as numerous as any gorean Masters.

For me personal discipline is the foundation that a D/s relationship must naturally be built upon. Without it I can not see how anyone could be having anything other then kinky sex.

This probably more then anything else shows my gorean side.

This is why i first introduced the thread to the A-Z. I think the gorean philosophy of the slave is much better for my own use.
There are the slaves who seem pretty haphazard in how things are done - which to me falls more under "Pet" than slave. There is more room for play and often for less seriousness.
Then there are those who do best under the more stringent and rule based form of slave. This is the one where i would see the most benefit would truly lay for both individuals. Surely knowing some would not see it and have a difference of opinion.. but that is why we've had all this discussion.

If a Master does not have the discipline to control himself then he sure should not be accepting an exchange of power that would be putting him in control of someone else.

This to me is a definite Part of being Dom.. I see many who , in my eyes, with what they say and post.. should be looking else where .. smiles..

Many times I have heard people say, I can make her learn, I would have to disagree. You may make her "do" but to really learn is something she has to want to do herself.

I see this as flawed thinking when I read an article or post from someone who thinks they can change a person. They have to wish to be changed or it's all based on a sandy foundations and will fall out from under your feet. Ironwulf thinks like me on this one.

That brings up another topic:
"I don't want her to think, I just want her to do what she is told".
Your thoughts?

I think the individual who says this is truly not concerned with the slave at all. Being wrapped in a trip of the ego and mind.
Now there is the Doing of a slave which is acceptable and practical. But for the Commenter to think do whatever to me is a bit of a problem. Depends on what she is told and some other influences on it.
For Control to be Held, it has to first be out there to be given by the other.
That nonconsensual part of Slavery to me is the part that doesn't work. No matter which lifestyle we are talking.


And
Thanks Blizz for you postings and your AV

[moptop]

This is a very interesting thread and, Wolfy, I think your last post was well balanced, thank you.

There are a couple of things that worry me generally. The first is a 'lifestyle'. For me personally, this is a mystery. Why do people feel the need to adopt a specific lifestyle, to state rules of behaviour and habit by which they regulate themselves daily, and especially to take rules that they have not discovered for themselves? I have never understood this need. Be it being a Trekky or a Gorean or following some form of strict religion, it has always seemed to me that to follow behavioural regulations laid down by someone else shows a lack of strength in the individuals, a lack of ability to discover themselves, and regulate their own lives.

On the other hand, I can certainly see the attraction. You no longer have to suffer the great philosophical questions, what is right, what is wrong, how should I act and interact with others.

Balance, and finding your own way, seems to me to be the only sensible method of living: because at some time you will encounter situations for which your adopted external lifestyle does not cater, problems to which it will not be able to provide an answer. And then you will find yourself defenseless, having no training in self-analysis, self-discipline, or empathy with others, by which to find your own solution.

Still, I'm way off thread. Yes, of course, if you as a couple wish to have a D/s relationship rather than just sex games, then self-discipline is an absolute necessity. But this self-discipline is imposed in order to reach a goal that has been predefined: just like it requires self-discipline to study at college etc. etc., when you know what you want at the end of it. This self-discipline is necessary for both parties: and both parties really do need to know when to ease up. Training is a stress and a pressure. As His_blizzard said of her own relationship, "remember this is real life. (...) There are many days the Gorean firmness is put on a back burner because I need more nilla at the moment."

On another point, though, it is perfectly possible to train someone to do without thought: behavioural modification, 'brain-washing' techniques can be applied in a D/s relationship, breaking down the sub/slave's personality completely to rebuild them and mould them to the Dominant's desired format. The sub/slave is no longer obeying through free-will and self-imposed, desired obedience and discipline.

Now, I will defend anyone's right to adopt a lifestyle (provided it does not cause harm to others and they do not try to impose it on me), even though it bewilders me and I cannot truly approve. But my very soul rises up in disgust at the concept of severe behavioural modification. How can that be a consensual thing, since the sub/slave becomes a different person - almost a non-existant person, in fact?

Anyone who can enlighten me...

I get the feeling I'm going to upset people by this post, for which I apologise in advance. I really do want to know, to understand, and I am not meaning to criticise. Disagree, yes. Condemn, no. Except for the brain-washing thing.

[Guest 91108]

Now, I will defend anyone's right to adopt a lifestyle (provided it does not cause harm to others and they do not try to impose it on me), even though it bewilders me and I cannot truly approve. But my very soul rises up in disgust at the concept of severe behavioural modification. How can that be a consensual thing, since the sub/slave becomes a different person - almost a non-existant person, in fact?

Anyone who can enlighten me...

here's the thing you will find that Ironwulf, Bliz and others have said if you noticed was we pull things from this lifestyle and many others to make up your way.

For myself there is no totally workable lifestyle or religion or .gov for that matter.
my religion is eclectic so too is the rest of what i do.

The thread itself is using gorean based concepts to explore the slave issue and to a lessor degree the Dom/Master.

Forget rigidity.......

If a person choose to become a Gorean slave they have given consent prior too.
None here are supporting anything non-consensual. I've not read that in any post. Just general references to the whole of gorean lifestyle which ( on this planet *smiles* ) is unworkable. you have to allow for many things so the "Concept" is the basis for anything.
I would wonder even about those who live a BDSM lifestyle how much they adhere and when. How much do they vanilize to be acceptable in public? 24/7 in most any lifestyle is for the rare few ... so you see .. it's all in how it's worked into the life of the one's whom assume it.
I'd probably even go further and say which parts has one found workable out in society and which ones do they work behind the doors and walls of their home ? Try looking at it that way.

[Ironwulf]

I find as I type this, that I am seeing this in a way I had not previously looked at it from before. I am sitting here truly saying to myself "Don't screw this up, its important".
------------------------------

Hi moptop,
Thanks for joining in. I don't want to quote everything you mentioned about this so I will just quote this part:

Why do people feel the need to adopt a specific lifestyle, to state rules of behaviour and habit by which they regulate themselves daily, and especially to take rules that they have not discovered for themselves? I have never understood this need.

This is a very good point and one that may shine some light on this whole gorean subject. Wolfscout alluded to this also.

There are the slaves who seem pretty haphazard in how things are done .... Then there are those who do best under the more stringent and rule based form of slave.

As I read and re-read those comments I started thinking about my own "lifestyle" and that of others around me. My thoughts had me thinking back to younger days and how my dad had been a "lifer" in the military and while I enjoyed my time in the military and had no problems working within the system I ended up looking for something different.

Why did my dad excel in living a lifestyle of strict rules and protocols?

It would seem to me that many people do thrive when given a strict framework to live in while others might feel oppressed by it to some degree or another and seek a different path.

I think it is no different for Masters and slaves in the BDSM world. Maybe people chose the gorean style because they in fact enjoy it and thrive in that strict environment. While others may want nothing to do with it feeling they perform best as a BDSM freestyler. Myself, I think I am most comfortable living a "lifestyle" somewhere in the middle.

So, when I seek a BDSM partner, do I select a "brat" with no self control, no I let her go freestyle with someone else. I seek a partner who will be comfortable living within the same "lifestyle" I do.

Somewhere between Gor and Earth.

I hope I said all this correctly, I know what I was trying to say but can never be sure I wrote it so others can understand it the same way I meant it.

[Timberwolf]

"So, when I seek a BDSM partner, do I select a "brat" with no self control,"

This brings up another intersting point: who says brats have no self control? I really don't get that. At all. I've yet to meet a bratty sub that wasn't doing it as either a direct or indirect way of saying "I need disciipline and structure... preferably from Your hand", so to speak.

"no I let her go freestyle with someone else."

Just because it isn't Gor doesn't make it "freestyle".

[Guest 91108]

Ironwulf, being a vet and knowing how some others think of military life , i think that is a great comparison.

Talk about rigid... how would you Like to be military life and pull in a little hippy movement for effect. say long hair and beards. grins.

the comparison works for me. LOL

Thanks for posting too.

[Ironwulf]

I hope I said all this correctly, I know what I was trying to say but can never be sure I wrote it so others can understand it the same way I meant it.

Obviously I was not successful.

@Timberwolf

I was referencing my comments mainly towards the points moptop and Wolfscout had made on the last page even though I did not quote them all as I stated at the beginning of my post.

The first is a 'lifestyle'. For me personally, this is a mystery. Why do people feel the need to adopt a specific lifestyle.

If you have no set form of BDSM lifestyle then I think its safe to say that whatever you do have can be called a freestyle. As in your living life freestyle, doing it your own way, etc. This is what I was referring to. The extreme ends of the spectrum. From the strict fully ruled Gorean lifestyle to the No rules, live in the moment BDSM Freestyler.

I also did not say nor mean to imply that all brats have no self control, even though I personally do know a couple of them who don't. I was merely saying that a girl with no self control (usually self proclaimed as a "brat") was not someone that I would be interested in partnering with in my BDSM lifestyle and would send her off to find someone else.

I like a more demure presentation from a girl looking to attract my attention. This type of girl might be interested in my semi-gorean approach to BDSM. That was the point I was trying to make.

I will continue in the future to try and make my points in a clear and understandable manner. Sometimes I will not accomplish it. You have my apology for that.

[His_blizzard]

So, when I seek a BDSM partner, do I select a "brat" with no self control, no I let her go freestyle with someone else. I seek a partner who will be comfortable living within the same "lifestyle" I do.

Somewhere between Gor and Earth.

Yes Ironwulf, perfect. That takes me back to when I posted about Gor earlier and I explained that Master and I were more "Gorean Lite" and that I was kajira-missive.
So what do we call our new counter Earth/Gor? I was thinking of "Gerth" but that hits too close to home. ***giggle*** E-Gor? Nah...... that won't work. I will have to think on that a bit. "peace" ~blizz~

[Ironwulf]

@Wolfscout
Yes I do not know why I never thought about the military comparison before.

@His_blizzard
Hmmm, I am going to have to think on that one too.

[His_blizzard]

@His_blizzard
Hmmm, I am going to have to think on that one too.

Gorrth What do you think?? *grin*

~blizz, the Gorrthian kajira-missive~

[Ironwulf]

Hahahaha, ya that might work, better then Eargor anyway.

[His_blizzard]

Hahahaha, ya that might work, better then Eargor anyway.

Yes Sir, I agree. Eargor sounds like something oozing from one's ear when in the throes of a nasty infection or some really nasty heavy wax build up. Ewwww.... Now on with the thread...

[Ironwulf]

I am really starting to like the name BDSM freestyler myself. Was thinking about getting some shirts made up. Bet you could sell a lot of those. I mean if you can sell a shirt that says "vanilla is for ice cream" then a BDSM freestyler shirt rocks.

Yes, back to the discussion, ok Wolfscout point the way.

[vistana]

a "vanilla is for icecream" shirt? I want this!

[Guest 91108]

hrm been thinking on the levels of a "lifestyle". The order is by topic not to show cross levels.
this is what i come up with :


first you have your ' Vanillas '

BDSM Curious beginning to unvanillaize their lives.

BDSM Freestylers open to many things now but not living it nor required to.
........ ( this includes Pets, and some collard/slaves. )

BDSM Lifers the harder core among them. Rules and severe punishment are delved out for disobedience. Usually in areas pertaining to respect, following some related rules, adn disobedience. All resulting in bondage and pain usually, occassionally for the purpose of bringing a mix of pleasure and orgasmic delight into the arena.

Gor Gamers - not worth talking about.

Gorean Lifers - all aspect of the life set to a rigidly enforced set of rules where actually is more open than others but harsh when the rules are clipped.

Gorean Lites - pull aspects of the Goreans that they think will work here for their relationship with their chosen ones. * smiles * covers all areas of life usuallly.

hrm well comments?

[Widget]

HAHAHA Gorean Lite.. Now with less calories and sugar free!!!!

I have to wonder why it’s so necessary to label anything that way though. I am sure that for people who are just starting to explore their sexuality, values and choices for how they want to shape their lives that would be even more confusing. Is one less or more valid? We all have different shades of kink, what gives us community here is that we are stepping outside the box and claiming something more for ourselves.

I can imagine the intimidation a budding Dom or Domme must feel having to measure up to the "Cool" BDSM'ers smoking in the back of the classroom..hehe high school flashback there...or the timid submissive as so many of them are at first, until they learn that submissive does not a door mat make, who runs into the submissive who ensures that they make sure that everyone knows that they are the better submissive because......and you are not a real submissive because <insert reasoning here>

I do not mean to sound like people who choose to name their roles in this way are wrong because that would be hypocrite of me. I just mean that somehow at times it seems to invalidate others choices if they are not the same as yours.

For me my sexual choices as well as my intimate interactions are not a game, I can't play that way. For those that are casual more power to them, it’s just not me. Everyone has to start one step at a time to see how far they want to go. I got lucky twice in the last two years in meeting people that I could not only talk very openly about the things running through my head but also gaining empowerment from it. I am very capable of living this kind of lifestyle as a day to day thing because if you have a deep connection there is no other way. I know that if I wanted to be deeply submissive to someone that I can make a wise and worthy choice and not run around looking for someone to collar me so I can brag about how great of a submissive I can be. I also know that if I was given the gift of someone’s submission in return that I also can be worthy of it and accept it from someone that knows the value of what they offer.

At the same time I would never be able to label within those confines where I would fall. There are some things about the Gorean philosophy I do think worthy. I do think that a Dom should make their sub feel as the most cherished prize and possession, and that a submissive should be able to honor that by giving over the trust to them. I do think there should be a time to play, dabble, learn limits, and learn to judge yourself and the people you choose to involve yourself with. Learn to KNOW yourself and be able to decide what you are not going to live without in your life. I know I did and it was not just about being kinky. What’s the use of sleeping beside someone that while they can get you off maybe, you always close a part of yourself away and always want it and maybe come onto sites like this to get a taste but you will never have it completely. It is also about complete intimacy.

I believe there is no such thing as a true vanilla just as there is no such thing as a totally 100% straight person. EVERYONE has a bit of grey. Some only a touch, others are all the way to the other side. After all dominance and submission is not JUST the sexual play, it is interaction and power play give and take. Every single relationship has that.

This may have taken a tangent from the question posed but I really feel that somehow the divergence in how people view their kink, their lifestyle is sometimes a very bad thing. I know that people here are very open and we can talk about these things without problems but pity the poor newbie who wanders into a closed minded it’s my way or the highway community. That is a really sad thing. I think the members here feel safe to say I dunno, show me, or hey what’s that without fear. I like that there are no Grand Doms who feel they are somehow better than others and I also like that there are no submissives pridefully lording their submission above members who are learning what they are really like.

I hope that this made sense and didn't come across as in any way rude because that is not my intent. I just felt I needed to say this here so I did. I have meant no offense but somehow this seemed to touch a cord for me. And lastly I like that we can all talk about this type of thing without fear of censure.

[Guest 91108]

ha , i just thought it was funny to do so.

[Ironwulf]

@ Widget (and everyone else too )

I think the labeling has for the most part been in jest or made as an aid for discussion purposes.

As I have said in some post in the past, BDSM is totally made up of shades of gray. That is why to me with the possible exceptions of the hardcore goreans and some old school BDSM types we really are all BDSM freestylers.

In my opinion we would be hard pressed to find very many people that practice the exact same style of BDSM as ourselves. We may show interests in the same types of things but how we apply them in our lifestyles is quite varied. (My guess, this one of the reasons why it is so difficult for Masters and slaves to find a real life match)

I have been labeled gorean just because I think the philosophy is valid and worth considering (and using for that matter). However, since we all label things it is natural to seek our own label before others do it for us. (Your a violinist - Not me, I play a fiddle)

It would not come as a surprise to me to find out that Wolfscout, His_blizzard and I have quite different ways of using the gorean philosophy in real life. Just as it would be for any other BDSM practitioner.

You did mention one thing I would like to see all of us discuss sometime down the thread and that is the concept of a "gift of submission".