Is BDSM a religion?

[Soaul]

Now everyone has the right to serve whichever Master they pick, don't they?

And if one wants a threesome (two Masters) who's to say why not? Certainly, not you or don't you believe in the Trinity!

[Aibo]

This is interesting, could you tell me more?

Even though this thread borders on a flamewar already. I will reply.

So yes, I used the word cult, and we find quite a number of similarities.

Cults tend to have a uniform, on BDSM gatherings you find something called 'dresscode' - ok not the best example since you see quite some variety, yet there is something to it, since everthing you see there, is something you dont see on the streets. And so you have the closed society setting, another sign of a cult.

Rules of conduct. Only certain ways of behaviour are allowed, switches tends to have a hard time both in reality as well as on forums.
Also if you have one interest that is outside the norm. Animal roleplayers to mention one example are often attacked with deliberate misunderstandings even suggestions of copulating with animals by other BDSM interested individuals.

Even within one male dominant female submissive relationship you will find that the ceiling is quite low, even on a forum.
If a submissive is allowed to suggest things, then you can bet you soon will see posts telling that she 'is topping from the bottom' and that you are a crappy Master. The examples can be made manifold but I will move on to some other points.

Breaking the law, many of us in many countries do break the law with these activities. We need not look further than Great Britain to find examples of raids by the police and arrests.

This does not only account for the action of private couples at home. Some BDSM organisations do even have bylaws that go against the legislation of the society where they are found. Examples found in several countries, though I limit to only one BDSM organisation in Norway where they have some ideas I don't subscribe to, including on rape.

That we do this for one erotic purpose changes nothing, many cults do indeed have the same aim, it may be polyamory ...or things we might dont even want to contemplate here (well I spit it out, children yuck.)

If you go against the dogma of a cult, you will be expulsed or banned.
Also that we can see here, very often there is only one view that is allowed on a number of matters.

[Pearlgem]

Reading over your questions and comments, V, it's clear there are many things you have still to learn about BDSM. It's perfectly all right not to know - everyone was new once and plenty of newbies are joining here all the time to learn and grow. If it is your wish to genuinely learn about this lifestyle for whatever reasons, personal or otherwise, you'll find no finer place. You'd get on better if you showed a little courtesy to those members who take the time to respond to you with knowledge and intelligence. You'd do that anywhere, wouldn't you? People on here value the sense of genuine community they engender. You'd be most welcome if this is what you too are honestly seeking.

If, however, you wish only to be emptily provocative and argue purely for the sake of it, that is your choice too. You can see how such antagonism might not help you learn or make your points convincingly, I'm sure. But I repeat, if you wish to learn and be part of a very real and valued community, you'd find yourself most welcome.

Take care x x

[Veronika]

If you go against the dogma of a cult, you will be expulsed or banned. Also that we can see here, very often there is only one view that is allowed on a number of matters.

True. Also might I add the attitude may be in some cases "us against the rest of the world" and isolation. For example if the master/mistress forbids sub/slave to contact certain people or media.

[Flaming_Redhead]

Yes but the husband and wife are submitting to Christ so it's not like the husband is allowed to do wrong things. So if the husband is breaking against God wife doesn't have to obey him.

22 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord."
28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, people have never hated their own bodies, but they feed and care for them, just as Christ does the church
-Ephesians 5:22, 5:28-29

That would be in a perfect world. I don't understand why you think the husband isn't "allowed" to do wrong things or why the wife doesn't have to obey him. *smiles* In the case of marriage to an unbeliever, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him. If the unbeliever leaves, THEN are they not bound.

I'm also not sure what your definition of "wrong things" is. Sex isn't wrong. Husbands and wives are to share their bodies with each other. Their bodies are not their own. It is their marital duty to please the other. It doesn't say how exactly....as much as the church would like us to believe that it's the missionary position.

[Veronika]

But I repeat, if you wish to learn and be part of a very real and valued community, you'd find yourself most welcome.

In other words, I'm not allowed to think differently in here at all? To me that is narrowminded. And questioning some things to have a interesting conversation is not arguing in my opinion. Is it in yours?

[jezabel]

Really? I think its offensive to try to make me believe I'm on a child's level or something. Not that I'm offended. I know I'm an intelligent adult. Master. Now there is a word. Makes you wonder can you serve two Masters at the same time?

im glad ur not offended, as i wasnt trying to offend u....im far too intelligent an adult for that, esp as ive read the forums t&cs and would hate to get myself banned for such an insignificant reason.

Master is the name i call my Dom out of politeness and respect...my relationship with God and what i call Him are not up for discussion, not because im too scared to, not allowed to or not intelligent enough to have a proper debate about it, but this is a lifestyle chat not a religious one....

[Veronika]

I'm also not sure what your definition of "wrong things" is.

Anything against the word of Bible. Of course sex is not wrong who said that?

[Veronika]

Okay so now after 15 posts I'm allowed to post that article I was talking about: http://www.mn-mistress.net/spiritualquest.htm

[efwb2]

Religion is a faith, e.g. beliving in somthing blindly. A sub that has never met a master a meets them has faith that they will not hurt them. This does not make it a Religion becuse the trust and faith is earned and not blind faith.

[sinderella]

Veronika, what are you doing here? are you really seeking information or just trying to make people justify themselves to you?

as far as this way of life being compared to a religion, you are confusing the spiritual aspects of it with religious ones. a religion is a belief system centered around a supernatural entity. where do you see that here?

a cult is the same thing as a religion, except it is outside of the 'normal' mainstream religions.

just because there are protocols and practices, objects or clothing that are unique to this way of life doesn't make it a cult. being concerned for your partner's safety, pleasure, enjoyment, and well-being requires caution and a set of rules, defining limitations, etc.

and just because one can experience a true spiritual communion with their partner, or an altered state of consciousness, even, doesn't make it a religion - vanilla people can experience the same thing when making love to their partners, although it is much more prevalent and profound in this world.

and yes, seeing it referred to as a 'cult' personally offends me.

[Pearlgem]

In other words, I'm not allowed to think differently in here at all? To me that is narrowminded. And questioning some things to have a interesting conversation is not arguing in my opinion. Is it in yours?

Are you interested in discussing topics or do you just want to argue about arguing? Think differently by all means but why not be courteous of others' views too. Questioning is encouraged, arguing is fine but try to keep on topic. You tend to get rather personal and come across as unecessarily aggressive. I'm sure you don't mean to. Read other threads here and see how good arguments remain on topic and avoid being personally disparaging.

Take care x x

[Veronika]

and yes, seeing it referred to as a 'cult' personally offends me.

I didn't bring that word up.

[Veronika]

You tend to get rather personal and come across as unecessarily aggressive.

Lol, sure turn everything upside down.

[Veronika]

I wanted to start discussion about this issue. I wanted to give out my opinion. You can agree or not to. I'm not going to apologize that I think differently and I tend to keep my own mind as long as I see fit. I'm not easily brainwashed ya know. And Fetishdj and Rachel06 made good points when they said if some thread offends you - then don't read it, simple as that.

Take care all...

[fetishdj]

Hmmm.... certainly a rather interesting debate here...

If we take a moment to step back and consider this from an intellectual viewpoint rather than an emotional one, I find this a fascinating discussion. From what I can gather from a quick skim read, we have two main arguments:

1) That the elements of BDSM which refer to 'worship' of an individual such as a Master or Mistress compounded with the elements of ecstatic ritual incorporated into the practises (sub and domspace) which are similar to those seen in some shamanic rituals (especially those that involve pain to create a trance state) could be evidence to compare BDSM a religion.

2) The opposing view that the essential lack of a central belief in a spiritual entity combined with several other factors which essentially come down to the 'BDSM is just like golf' argument which claim it essentially is not... Within this may well be the 'calling anything else a religion other than 'my' religion is heresy' argument though that could be a third one and one which is too primed with contention to possibly be safe...

So, is anyone prepared to debate these sensibly and with constructive argument? Would it be better to move this to the religion and philosophy thread?

[sinderella]

I didn't bring that word up.

i know. i was just adding that to my final thought. i should have clarified that better.

I wanted to start discussion about this issue. I wanted to give out my opinion. You can agree or not to. I'm not going to apologize that I think differently and I tend to keep my own mind as long as I see fit. I'm not easily brainwashed ya know. And Fetishdj and Rachel06 made good points when they said if some thread offends you - then don't read it, simple as that.

Take care all...

well...of course people are going to read it... i don't think people want you to 'apologize' for having a different viewpoint. i do think that your manner is somewhat off-putting, i have to say...

[SubmissiveDoll]

I think the quote you are going for ...

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord, 23 for the husband is head of the wife as also Christ is head of the church. He is the Savior of the body. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as also Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 to make her holy, cleansing her in the washing of water by the word. (Ephesians 5:22-26)

Unless you wanted it to be paraphrased like you had it. Admittedly, it does sound a whole lot different the way you have it. I personally prefer quoting the bible the way it's written though.

I'd mention the slave's prayer, but I think they had that one covered.

Yes but the husband and wife are submitting to Christ so it's not like the husband is allowed to do wrong things. So if the husband is breaking against God wife doesn't have to obey him.

22 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord."
28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, people have never hated their own bodies, but they feed and care for them, just as Christ does the church
-Ephesians 5:22, 5:28-29

[Pearlgem]

I think it would be definitely better to move the thread to Religion and Philosophy. I would have a different feel and response to it I think than here under general BDSM talk.

*click* somebody make it so!

[Veronika]

i do think that your manner is somewhat off-putting, i have to say...

Maybe so but my first post in this thread got strong emotional responses which were almost rude.

[sinderella]

Even though this thread borders on a flamewar already. I will reply.

So yes, I used the word cult, and we find quite a number of similarities.

Cults tend to have a uniform, on BDSM gatherings you find something called 'dresscode' - ok not the best example since you see quite some variety, yet there is something to it, since everthing you see there, is something you dont see on the streets. And so you have the closed society setting, another sign of a cult.

i'm not sure how being mindful of people's privacy is being a "closed society", and how you determine that is "a sign of a cult". not everyone is open about their true nature...while i am not ashamed of being a submissive, i don't go broadcasting it at the office, or at family gatherings. it is a cherished, private part of myself, not subject to other's ignorant assumptions and prejudices.

Rules of conduct. Only certain ways of behaviour are allowed, switches tends to have a hard time both in reality as well as on forums. Also if you have one interest that is outside the norm. Animal roleplayers to mention one example are often attacked with deliberate misunderstandings even suggestions of copulating with animals by other BDSM interested individuals.

Even within one male dominant female submissive relationship you will find that the ceiling is quite low, even on a forum.
If a submissive is allowed to suggest things, then you can bet you soon will see posts telling that she 'is topping from the bottom' and that you are a crappy Master. The examples can be made manifold but I will move on to some other points.

Breaking the law, many of us in many countries do break the law with these activities. We need not look further than Great Britain to find examples of raids by the police and arrests.

This does not only account for the action of private couples at home. Some BDSM organisations do even have bylaws that go against the legislation of the society where they are found. Examples found in several countries, though I limit to only one BDSM organisation in Norway where they have some ideas I don't subscribe to, including on rape.

That we do this for one erotic purpose changes nothing, many cults do indeed have the same aim, it may be polyamory ...or things we might dont even want to contemplate here (well I spit it out, children yuck.)

If you go against the dogma of a cult, you will be expulsed or banned.
Also that we can see here, very often there is only one view that is allowed on a number of matters.

individual opinions on message forums are just that - opinion and commentary. they do not make up the entire BDSM D/s etc. way of life. you of course know why protocols and rules are necessary, and they are by no means sinister or signs of a cult.

[sinderella]

Maybe so but my first post in this thread got strong emotional responses which were almost rude.

well i hope you don't feel that way about my responses to you. being a seeker myself, i would hate to feel unwelcome. but i would probably not make those i sought information from feel challenged or pushed in any way.

if responses were filled with emotion it is because (speaking only for myself), your submission or Dominance is WHO YOU ARE, and when someone appears to be dissecting you or alluding to incorrect or even sinister motivation on your part, it does tend to make you close off a little...

[Veronika]

Hmmm.... certainly a rather interesting debate here...

I'm glad you think so too!

[Veronika]

but i would probably not make those i sought information from feel challenged or pushed in any way.

Well maybe I'm quite strong-minded and I know it can be annoying to some people, lol.

if responses were filled with emotion it is because (speaking only for myself), your submission or Dominance is WHO YOU ARE,

That implies then that we are not talking about a hobby that can be compared to playing golf, rather than something deeply personal and important. Kind of like religion?

[jezabel]

That implies then that we are not talking about a hobby that can be compared to playing golf, rather than something deeply personal and important. Kind of like religion?

no, as ive said, its a lifestyle, a choice...def not a religion

its about a relationship between people who have like-minded views...a relationship similar to a 'vanilla' lifestyle but with a few more extremes, more pain and in my opinion more fun and meaning.

[Aibo]

i'm not sure how being mindful of people's privacy is being a "closed society", and how you determine that is "a sign of a cult". not everyone is open about their true nature...while i am not ashamed of being a submissive, i don't go broadcasting it at the office, or at family gatherings. it is a cherished, private part of myself, not subject to other's ignorant assumptions and prejudices.

Hello sindarella, it is with extreme hesitation I decided to reply to you directly.
First off, I did say similarities, you also read my post the same way as 'the Devil reads the Bible'.

How you deal with this have nothing to so with my post at all, I dont know you, and was not the subject here.

I do however know the ideas, situation and as already mentioned bylaws of a number of BDSM clubs and societies, and a few of them do indeed show warning signs both as for the rules and the behaviour of certain individuals.

individual opinions on message forums are just that - opinion and commentary. they do not make up the entire BDSM D/s etc. way of life. you of course know why protocols and rules are necessary, and they are by no means sinister or signs of a cult.

When rules and bylaws go against both the law and common sense, (the example on rape mentioned earlier) I be damned, but I do view it as a sign that something is wrong and want no part of it. So I do not subscribe to their newsletter, never have or will visit one of their BDSM parties and never will be a member until they change them, period.

[sinderella]

Well maybe I'm quite strong-minded and I know it can be annoying to some people, lol.

That implies then that we are not talking about a hobby that can be compared to playing golf, rather than something deeply personal and important. Kind of like religion?

there are many things that are "deeply personal and important" to many people, vanilla and otherwise, and which they are very passionate about, but they are clearly not "like religion". religion is people coming together to worship a supernatural entity, like Jesus, God, etc.

i am completely lost as to your confusion of BDSM with religion, but...carry on and good luck in your quest. the next part is not about you, jsut so you don't think i am addressing you - just making a comment.

as far as newsletters and whatnot, without knowing the particlulars i can't comment on that newsletter, but newsletters, individual clubs, forums and organizations do NOT a lifestyle make. i believe everyone subscribes to the "Safe Sane and Consensual" maxim.

[sinderella]

I think it would be definitely better to move the thread to Religion and Philosophy. I would have a different feel and response to it I think than here under general BDSM talk.

*click* somebody make it so!

"Make it so, Number One."

Wheee...

[thepast]

A MESSAGE FROM YOUR FRIENDLY ADMIN:


This thread has been moved to RELIGION & PHILOSOPHY for some obvious reasons-- a.) deals with religion (see 10 posts above in thread); b.) the religion & philosophy area allows a LITTLE more leeway in posting. Note the phrase: A LITTLE MORE-- that does NOT mean leaps & bounds more.

What you post is your OPINION. If you are offended by the thread or the topic, you may say "I find the TOPIC offensive" not "x, you are offensive." I also highly suggest if you DO find it offensive to meander to another thread to post in because you are emotionally connected to the topic & will find it difficult to seperate fact/fiction and fact/opinion.

CONSIDER THIS A WARNING, FOLKS!!! Keep it on topic, keep it pithy, and keep it to a low roar.

[damyanti]

As someone who has a bit of a fetish on intellectual and psychological musings, especially in terms of (all) D/s relationships, I quite enjoyed your opening posts, but your later ones do make me wonder what it is you hope to accomplish...since you seem to have already made up your mind.

So let me state here unequivocally - BDSM is in no way, shape or form a religion!

And it most certainly isnt a cult - in cult people have uniform beliefs, if you bother to read through other threads (BDSM And Feminism; Intelligence and Submission; Washing feet; Old School ; Question about romance ; Safe Words and Safety Concerns ; On Being a Dominant; and many, many more) you will see that we cant agree on anything ...except maybe that its ok that we dont agree on anything and that we all have the right to live our lives in a way that feels right to us...but thats hardly a cult-like mind frame.

Whereever there is a gathering of people there are bound to always be bad people, people who always have to be right, people who get off on brainwashing the less experienced ones, those who use just about anything to excuse abuse........but all these things have nothing to do with BDSM and exist in vanilla world too, maybe even more so....(but even if the opposite were true, I have met so many wonderful and wise people here, and learned so much - even from those not so wise, imho - that that makes it more than worth it and makes me grateful that this site exists).

What you mistake for religious fervor is in fact devotion and intimacy that is born out of sharing your life with someone else....in BDSM the intensity of it is more pronounced because in adition to sharing, you are also placing your life into someone elses hands or someone else is placing their life into yours so communication is mandatory...and often reaches levels that I imagine confuse and scare vanilla people.

I'm strong-minded, indepndent adult, reputedly highly intelligent and not easily brainwashed....I am also determined and know what I want...and it does involve "us against the rest of the world" feeling. I wont settle for less.

This isnt right for everybody...we get that...so I can assure you that we have never had a thread where we discussed our evil plan of turning the rest of the world into one giant dungeon (though numbers in Science on BDSM thread make for an interesting reading)....so please extend us the same courtesy of not implying that there is something sinister, sick or abnormal in a way we choose to conduct our personal relationship. Because by your definition of religion what all the vanilla people who stay in bed on Sunday morning and shout "oh, god" are doing is praying, .