Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
Oh come on! I don't care what you call it: atheism, non-theism, religiously challenged. The point is that there have been non-believers for as long as their have been believers. The problem is that you keep insisting that atheism is just another belief system, rather than a simple statement of fact.

I said nothing about "systems", atheism is a "belief" though, I cant help it if your deliberately being ..how did you put it earlier in the thread...oh yes.."dense".


Which makes my point. Culture's views on things change over time. Something which was acceptable, even commendable, only a few hundred years ago is now considered abominable, at least by "civilized" society. The same is true for homosexuality. There have been times when it has been acceptable, even admired in some cultures. It's only recently that it has come to be tolerated in this culture. Yet the "tolerant" Christians, Jews, Muslims and others are fighting tenaciously against equal rights for homosexuals. And their only reasons for that are based on their religious teachings.

So are tolerant Capitalists, democrats, republicans, and yes...atheists. Being against homo-sexuals is not a religious only thing.

I agree, everyone has the right to their own opinion. But they do not have the right to deny others that same right.

Actually in a democracy everyone has the right to speak out, period...which way the country ends up going though isnt a "right" its how the majority decided it would turn out...in so far as actually denying anyone anything...well thats for the legal system to sort out once something is indeed made a right by law.


That's not what I said, and you know it!

It isnt?...Well who then gets to decide what children are allowed to be taught by their parents then?

I just think it's bad enough that parents stuff their kids heads full of mythology, we don't need to have the schools doing it too. Just teach kids to think critically. Teach them not to believe everything someone tells them. Regardless of who it is.

They dont see it as "mythology"...your still talking about taking even more parents "rights" away.


Which probably explains why you have changed religions so much.

Not at all...though I can understand why you would wish to make such a presumption.

A good thing in my view. As I've said, I can respect your search, (I wasnt on some kind of religious scavenger hunt silly) and I still go to Lutheran Church because you are obviously thinking deeply about it. My only criticism, in your case, is that it seems to me you are always searching based on the premise that a god, or gods, exists.

No I studied atheism at length and rejected it as being an unlikely and illogical conclussion to make about the universe.


Again, you're misrepresenting what I'm saying. Since I have no religious beliefs there's nothing to replace other's beliefs with.

So you offer "nothing". Now there is even "less" of a reason to listen too you.


Don't think of it as a movement away from gods, but as a movement away from superstition.

That however isnt how believers in a paticular religion feel...I hope you can one day respect that.

Humans once had multiple gods, for everything.

They still do in many cultures.

Eventually they whittled that down to just one god (for the most part) although everyone has different opinions about what that one god is and what he wants.

They even whittled it down to no gods in some movments (like the Communist ones) and we all know how that turned out.

Perhaps now it is time to put aside that security blanket and accept that WE are responsible for what we do and only WE can make it right.

Ive never heard anywhere during any of my time here on this earth of any religion that promotes an idea of anything less than self responsibility for ones actions. Not one.

Gods, Santa Clause, fairies and leprechauns have no place in our lives except as sometimes amusing stories for children.

And equating religious adherence to being a child or having faith in a God or Gods as being a belief in a Santa or fairies and leprechauns has no place in a debate about atheism and religion. Not if you expect the faithful to have any respect for what you saying. Insulting all people of faith is not the best way to influence them.

Maybe this is where the real disagreement arises, and why religious people cling so hard to their gods. I am not offering anyone an alternative. I don't have anything that replaces religion or gods or faith. That would be like teaching you can lose weight by switching from Angel Food cake to Devil's Food cake. (Yeah, I did that on purpose! So sue me!) It isn't going to help. I'm saying eliminate the cake completely.

You have to eat somthing...or you starve to death eventually.

See and you said you didnt have a belief system...yet here you are defining the tenents of your faith:

"Eliminate the superstitions completely. You don't need gods to do the right thing. You don't need gods to love other people. You don't need preachers to tell you to help your neighbor. Do it because it's the right thing to do, because it's the human thing to do".
Just like the theists, telling other people "what" to believe.