Welcome to the BDSM Library.
  • Login:
beymenslotgir.com kalebet34.net escort bodrum bodrum escort
Results 1 to 30 of 142

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Keeping the Ahh in Kajira
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Last paga tavern on the left.
    Posts
    5,625
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
    Really? That's the extent of your argument? Okay, then. For as far back as records go, there have been non-believers. Usually they were the more educated, or the priests themselves. But they have always been there. And when discovered they were usually persecuted.

    Really? Where is your "evidence" of such? Of all these ancient atheists that is?


    Sorry, I must be dense. I just can't wrap my head around the concept that NOT believing in something is just a different way of believing in something.

    Well if thats what you wish to leave it at thats fine by me. lol


    Nope. Not at all. I only have a problem when they try to tell me that their idea is absolutely true when they have no evidence for it whatsoever.

    How ironic...thats just what the atheists are doing with their own ideas.

    LOL! No? Look up the story of gay marriage, especially in California. The Mormon church pumped millions of dollars into the campaign to fight that. Since when did denying people basic rights NOT become evil?

    Since when did preserving the traditional rites of marriage become evil? Your really grasping at straws here you know.


    No. I have zero respect for those who BLINDLY follow a charlatan because it makes them feel good, or because that's who their parents worshiped. If someone has studied, and researched, and come to a belief despite the lack of evidence, I don't have a problem. I can respect them for their honesty. I don't have to respect their beliefs.

    You do realize that sounds like your automatically assuming as a defualt setting that everyone is having the wool pulled over their eyes until proven otherwise in your personal estimation.

    Which sounds like your being exactly like all those zealous people of different faiths who think that any non-believers in their paticular belief system must need their help to be brought into the light.


    Yes, I'm aware of that.

    Realy seems like you forgot altogether your own participation in said thread on the topic.

    I have no problem with that.

    Then why be so insulting when you attacked it?

    But this is a perfect example of the kinds of things I'm talking about. You are, I'm sure, aware that this "philosophy" is based on a series of stories. Fictional stories. Very recent ones.

    You apparently are not aware of any of the facts surrounding the authorship of the books or that the fictional stories were used dileberately by the author as the only way of expressing and shareing his philosophy with others, which was a direct result of his philosophical ideas being shoved out of academia by the pro-feminist zealots who had taken over his field at the time and refused to allow any agenda but theirs to prevail in the area. A classic example of how scientists act just like sophistic theocrats when it suits them.

    Now, project this philosophy into the future, say 2000 years, when the very beginnings of it are hidden or lost. Can't you see how this could become a religion?

    You mean all those philosophies invented by the ancient greeks over 2400 years ago are now majically religious?

    And doesn't that give you at least some insight into how other religions can be formed based on absolute fiction?

    Your again working under the assumption that all religion is derived by an individual hood winking a group of people with nothing more that baseless assumption. When not only the recorded history of such things but all contemporary scientific schools of thought on the study of physcology, theocracy and anthropology (the only evidence we have of said origens conserning any given faiths beginings) in fact directly countridicts your assumption.

    Yeah, you struck a nerve. Just like someone repeating the same phrase, over and over. "Evil atheist state", "not believing is believing". "Religion isn't evil, it's the people who abuse it who are evil." The same things over and over. Like chalk screeching on a blackboard. << another example of what Im talking about...things like that dont do you any credit in your arguments.

    I only kept repeating the primary idea becuase you kept trying to use sophistry to ignore it.

    That idea being: " its people..not "ideas" that do harm"

    That trying to blame "religion" for all the worlds ills...is a silly as blaming "science" or "Santa Cluas" or in a more mechanical sence...blaming the gun or the bullet as opposed to who pulls the trigger.


    The problem is that the religious don't really WANT a secular state, they want a theocratic one.

    Really? So I must then want a non-secular state huh? I mean I am a religious follower after all.?

    The reality is however: just becuse one has a religion that they wish to follow it does not automatically mean their agenda is world domination or even anything remotely like it.



    I will however grant you that there are some people out there who may have had dreams of making their own religion or philosophy or governmental or economic ideals the only one's practiced in the world. (atheist are in that little group too, more than once)

    But I also think that those people's dreams have very little actual chance of reaching futition.


    Those individuals and those who share their ideas have failed so far every time they attempted such a thing (both the theists and atheist variety -though the theists ussually had more success in such endeavors until modern times ...I atribute that to being better educated and in general more organized, but actual history will show you it was the theists that were inclussive of other peoples faiths who had the highest level of success overall ) at least in taking over the world or a paticular area of it and holding dominion over it...and I dont see them making much headway in the modern world on even a local level.

    The only logical conclussion then must be secularism for all.

    Freedom of speech, as long as you don't say anything blasphemous about THEIR religion. Freedom of expression, as long as you don't express discontent with THEIR religion. Freedom of worship, as long as you only worship THEIR religion. THAT is what I see happening in this country! THAT is what I'm fighting against!

    By insulting anyone who doesnt believe as you do? By using the same things you accuse them off yourself?

    Think I'm wrong? Try walking into a school board meeting, or a town council meeting, where they open each session with a prayer. Try asking them to open that session with a Bahai prayer, or an Islamic prayer, or a Jewish prayer. See just how "tolerant" they are. I would especially recommend trying this in the deep south or the midwest. I think you'd get a real eye-opening experience.
    Actually...unless as in the case of my niece who attended a private lutheran school, when any local town meetings or school related things conviened where I have been in attendence...I havent seen too many people wanting a prayer to begin with...secondly..when they do its allmost allways a silent moment where each is allowed to pray in their heads to whoever they wish.

    Which shouldnt bother the atheists since they shouldnt care eaither way if their being logical about things and truely accepting that other people are indeed entitled to hold their own beliefs.

    And truth be told as a Bahai...or as a member of any of the other religious faiths I held before it, even during the period where I was breifly atheist myself...it still didnt bother me...even when it was one faiths prayer and out loud. Why should I care if the people in a paticular gathering decide they all wish to have a prayer or some such ritual preformed. Its not hurting me or anyone else.

    In those cases of when Ive been in areas where one faith predominated over the others (such as when I was in living in the middle east, or in my local community here -which for your information is in the deepest of the deep southern usa bible belt) I would adapt as nessesary to the cultural requirments of the people in the paticular area I was staying in. They live the way they wish..its not my place to try and force them to do otherwise. "When in Rome" as the old saying goes I have found to be excellent advice to live by.
    Last edited by denuseri; 06-21-2011 at 01:39 PM.
    When love beckons to you, follow him,Though his ways are hard and steep. And when his wings enfold you yield to him, Though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound thee
    KAHLIL GIBRAN, The Prophet

  2. #2
    Just a little OFF
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    2,821
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by denuseri View Post
    Really? Where is your "evidence" of such? Of all these ancient atheists that is?
    From Wikipedia:
    "In early ancient Greek, the adjective atheos (ἄθεος, from the privative ἀ- + θεός "god") meant "godless". It was first used as a term of censure roughly meaning "ungodly" or "impious". In the 5th century BCE, the word began to indicate more deliberate and active godlessness in the sense of "severing relations with the gods" or "denying the gods"."
    And:
    "The spontaneous proposition that there may be no gods after all is logically as old as theism itself (and the proposition that there may be no God as old as the beginnings of monotheism or henotheism)."
    Since when did preserving the traditional rites of marriage become evil? Your really grasping at straws here you know.
    When did the tradition of keeping slaves become evil? When did the idea of polytheism become evil? When did polygamy become evil? Even the "rite" of marriage is very different throughout the world, and has changed drastically throughout history. The only reasons not to allow gay couples the same legal rights as heterosexual couples, whether you want to call it marriage or not, are religious.

    You do realize that sounds like your automatically assuming as a defualt setting that everyone is having the wool pulled over their eyes until proven otherwise in your personal estimation.
    Well, when people are willing to accept a supernatural being as their overlord, are willing to drop to their knees in terror of offending this being, in hopes of a promised reward which no one has ever seen, then yeah, in my estimation they are being duped.

    You mean all those philosophies invented by the ancient greeks over 2400 years ago are now majically religious?
    More or less. Most of the religious dogma which exist today are based on very early myths from all over the Middle East, including the virgin birth, the flood, the resurrection, and many more. Those myths, previously told as stories of other ancient gods, were incorporated into Judaism and from there into Christianity and Islam.

    Which shouldnt bother the atheists since they shouldnt care eaither way if their being logical about things and truely accepting that other people are indeed entitled to hold their own beliefs.
    What bothers me is when the theists don't reciprocate that idea. Read up on the atheist bus campaign, and see how much resistance has been shown not only by religious groups but by businesses and governments as well.

    Why should I care if the people in a paticular gathering decide they all wish to have a prayer or some such ritual preformed. Its not hurting me or anyone else.
    Sorry, but I have to believe it hurts everyone who doesn't hold the same faith as the praying group. Especially children, who will emulate their parents and grow up believing just what the parent want them to believe, without learning to think about such things for themselves.

    Want to see how "tolerant" religious people are? Suggest that instead of sending their kids to Sunday School they send them to study comparative religions and religious history. I doubt you'd get many takers.

    "When in Rome" as the old saying goes I have found to be excellent advice to live by.
    I find that it only encourages people to believe that they must be right. Sometimes you need to show them another way.

    Obviously you have done a lot of searching to establish your particular philosophy. I admire you for that. I still think you're wrong, but that's your right. My arguments aren't aimed so much at you as at those who may be on the fence about religion, leaning one way or the other, not believing but not sure what to do about it. Sometimes just knowing there is someone out there who thinks along the same lines as yourself can be a big help. Religion is so endemic to our society that it is very unusual for someone to grow up without being immersed in some form of religious ideology from birth. That's changing, though. Hopefully it will keep changing.
    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche

  3. #3
    Keeping the Ahh in Kajira
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Last paga tavern on the left.
    Posts
    5,625
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
    From Wikipedia:
    "The spontaneous proposition that there may be no gods after all is logically as old as theism itself (and the proposition that there may be no God as old as the beginnings of monotheism or henotheism)."

    I guess you forgot the part about when the term Atheist took on its current meaning; from the same article in Wiki...."The first individuals to identify themselves as "atheist" appeared in the 18th century.

    The term wasnt used in the same context back in 500bc...other than to refer to impiety.

    The theists had been around for 4000 years before that according to written history...with zero evidence of any Atheists.

    When did the tradition of keeping slaves become evil?

    For the most part historically speaking the idea that slavery was somehow evil didnt develope until the abolistionist movment (a highly religiously driven movement I might add) came to become socially acceptable amongst the populace in the 1700's.

    When did the idea of polytheism become evil?

    Become evil to whom? Different societies viewed it as unnessesary or wrong at differing times in history and some have since reversed their positions on the topic.

    When did polygamy become evil?

    Im not so sure polygamy has ever been viewed as "evil" per say at least not outside of some small minded groups in general.

    Even the "rite" of marriage is very different throughout the world, lol...seriously? Its actually one of those things thats allmost a commonality between allmost all people on the planet outside of a few small and isolated cultures.

    and has changed drastically throughout history.

    Not really all that much at all...not until modern times that is.

    The only reasons not to allow gay couples the same legal rights as heterosexual couples, whether you want to call it marriage or not, are religious.

    What a narrow minded opinion to hold. I can see all sorts of reasons why a society wouldnt want to promote this kind of thing that have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with cultural preservation (though its my personal opinion that it should be allowed here in the USA...I even started a thread on it outlining my personal position in detail if youd like the link)

    All I was saying is that it wasnt "evil" in and of itself for people to wish to have an opinion about it and or express that opinion in our democracy.

    Well, when people are willing to accept a supernatural being as their overlord, are willing to drop to their knees in terror of offending this being, in hopes of a promised reward which no one has ever seen, then yeah, in my estimation they are being duped.

    No more duped than they are when they accept the word of some other guy with equally lacking evidence that there is no god for them to do all this kneeling too?

    More or less. Most of the religious dogma which exist today are based on very early myths from all over the Middle East, including the virgin birth, the flood, the resurrection, and many more. Those myths, previously told as stories of other ancient gods, were incorporated into Judaism and from there into Christianity and Islam.

    You may wish to read up on some of this in greater detail. Or perhaps your confusing the works of the philosophers with the works of much earlier theologians idk:

    The Philosophers didnt even exist until 2400 years ago (roughly 500bce) give or take a couple hundred years...they were mainly Greek...their philosophies btw are today still just that...philosophies...and never turned for even a moment into any religion that I am aware of.

    As for the religious mythologies of different cultures in the mesopotamian region...thats a whole different ball of religious wax...not philosophical. It was steeped in religion from its advent to its fall in some cases and to its evolution into further theological thoughts some of which do have trappings held over to modern times...but never lost its theist conotation.


    What bothers me is when the theists don't reciprocate that idea.

    Really...Im a theist...I brought up secularism and toleration and aceptance in this thread and others where weve discussed this , (long before you I might add) even pleaded with you to at least consider it...and every time until the past couple posts here youve sidesteped or refused to acknowledge or simply tried to re-brand your position and kept on insulting people of faith etc. In fact...90% of the people I know who are religious adherents also believe secularism is preferable to strife over religious ideals and if you look at 99% of the secular movments in the world you will see them being lead by groups of theists from different faiths as well.


    Sorry, but I have to believe it hurts everyone who doesn't hold the same faith as the praying group. Especially children, who will emulate their parents and grow up believing just what the parent want them to believe, without learning to think about such things for themselves.

    So now you would have children not be raised by their parents? Who then shall raise them...the state? Gee that sounds awfully familiar for some reason...hummm...ohh thats right the "communists in south east asia promoted that ideal".

    Want to see how "tolerant" religious people are? Suggest that instead of sending their kids to Sunday School they send them to study comparative religions and religious history. I doubt you'd get many takers.

    Actually growing up as a Lutheran...we studdied all sorts of religions other than our own and were activly encouraged to study religious history.

    I find that it only encourages people to believe that they must be right. Sometimes you need to show them another way.

    So basically you wish to replace everyone elses beliefs...with your own?

    Obviously you have done a lot of searching to establish your particular philosophy. I admire you for that. I still think you're wrong, but that's your right. My arguments aren't aimed so much at you as at those who may be on the fence about religion, leaning one way or the other, not believing but not sure what to do about it. Sometimes just knowing there is someone out there who thinks along the same lines as yourself can be a big help. Religion is so endemic to our society that it is very unusual for someone to grow up without being immersed in some form of religious ideology from birth. That's changing, though. Hopefully it will keep changing.
    I see no reason that any kind of evolutionary movement away from God should be looked upon as a good thing...though from everything Ive seen on this subject..people having faith in something other than atheism doesnt change so much as adherence to organzed religious efforts declines in cerrtian urbanized conditions of prosperity where individualism is promoted over obligation to the group.

    As for respect...well I would certiantly respect you more if, you practiced what you preached...

    ...instead of acting with the same self rightious attitude of the very people you wish to declaim for their faith in their own ways of thought as being automatically wrong, deluded, or in need of repair or not as valid as your own for them ...especially since you have zero evidence to point to something different as an alternative.

    If you really believe in secularism...than practice it... instead of preaching atheism over all others.
    When love beckons to you, follow him,Though his ways are hard and steep. And when his wings enfold you yield to him, Though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound thee
    KAHLIL GIBRAN, The Prophet

  4. #4
    Just a little OFF
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    2,821
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by denuseri View Post
    I guess you forgot the part about when the term Atheist took on its current meaning; from the same article in Wiki...."The first individuals to identify themselves as "atheist" appeared in the 18th century. The term wasnt used in the same context back in 500bc...other than to refer to impiety.
    Oh come on! I don't care what you call it: atheism, non-theism, religiously challenged. The point is that there have been non-believers for as long as their have been believers. The problem is that you keep insisting that atheism is just another belief system, rather than a simple statement of fact.

    For the most part historically speaking the idea that slavery was somehow evil didnt develope until the abolistionist movment
    Which makes my point. Culture's views on things change over time. Something which was acceptable, even commendable, only a few hundred years ago is now considered abominable, at least by "civilized" society. The same is true for homosexuality. There have been times when it has been acceptable, even admired in some cultures. It's only recently that it has come to be tolerated in this culture. Yet the "tolerant" Christians, Jews, Muslims and others are fighting tenaciously against equal rights for homosexuals. And their only reasons for that are based on their religious teachings.

    What a narrow minded opinion to hold. I can see all sorts of reasons why a society wouldnt want to promote this kind of thing that have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with cultural preservation
    And you could say the same thing about slavery. Or interracial marriages. Or interfaith marriages. There are some parts of culture that aren't worth preserving. But please, I'd love to hear some cultural arguments, which aren't ultimately based in religion, against giving everyone the same rights.

    All I was saying is that it wasnt "evil" in and of itself for people to wish to have an opinion about it and or express that opinion in our democracy.
    I agree, everyone has the right to their own opinion. But they do not have the right to deny others that same right. And denying any group of people the rights which you already have, by law, just because you don't like those people, or because a book of shepherds tales from thousands of years ago doesn't like them, is IMO evil.

    So now you would have children not be raised by their parents?
    That's not what I said, and you know it! I just think it's bad enough that parents stuff their kids heads full of mythology, we don't need to have the schools doing it too. Just teach kids to think critically. Teach them not to believe everything someone tells them. Regardless of who it is.

    Actually growing up as a Lutheran...we studdied all sorts of religions other than our own and were activly encouraged to study religious history.
    Which probably explains why you have changed religions so much. A good thing in my view. As I've said, I can respect your search, because you are obviously thinking deeply about it. My only criticism, in your case, is that it seems to me you are always searching based on the premise that a god, or gods, exists. I don't know what you are searching for, but perhaps you might try searching from the premise that gods probably do NOT exist. See where that search leads you.

    So basically you wish to replace everyone elses beliefs...with your own?
    Again, you're misrepresenting what I'm saying. Since I have no religious beliefs there's nothing to replace other's beliefs with.

    I see no reason that any kind of evolutionary movement away from God should be looked upon as a good thing
    Don't think of it as a movement away from gods, but as a movement away from superstition. Humans once had multiple gods, for everything. Eventually they whittled that down to just one god (for the most part) although everyone has different opinions about what that one god is and what he wants. Perhaps now it is time to put aside that security blanket and accept that WE are responsible for what we do and only WE can make it right. Gods, Santa Clause, fairies and leprechauns have no place in our lives except as sometimes amusing stories for children.

    especially since you have zero evidence to point to something different as an alternative.
    Maybe this is where the real disagreement arises, and why religious people cling so hard to their gods. I am not offering anyone an alternative. I don't have anything that replaces religion or gods or faith. That would be like teaching you can lose weight by switching from Angel Food cake to Devil's Food cake. (Yeah, I did that on purpose! So sue me!) It isn't going to help. I'm saying eliminate the cake completely.

    Eliminate the superstitions completely. You don't need gods to do the right thing. You don't need gods to love other people. You don't need preachers to tell you to help your neighbor. Do it because it's the right thing to do, because it's the human thing to do.
    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche

  5. #5
    Keeping the Ahh in Kajira
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Last paga tavern on the left.
    Posts
    5,625
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
    Oh come on! I don't care what you call it: atheism, non-theism, religiously challenged. The point is that there have been non-believers for as long as their have been believers. The problem is that you keep insisting that atheism is just another belief system, rather than a simple statement of fact.

    I said nothing about "systems", atheism is a "belief" though, I cant help it if your deliberately being ..how did you put it earlier in the thread...oh yes.."dense".


    Which makes my point. Culture's views on things change over time. Something which was acceptable, even commendable, only a few hundred years ago is now considered abominable, at least by "civilized" society. The same is true for homosexuality. There have been times when it has been acceptable, even admired in some cultures. It's only recently that it has come to be tolerated in this culture. Yet the "tolerant" Christians, Jews, Muslims and others are fighting tenaciously against equal rights for homosexuals. And their only reasons for that are based on their religious teachings.

    So are tolerant Capitalists, democrats, republicans, and yes...atheists. Being against homo-sexuals is not a religious only thing.

    I agree, everyone has the right to their own opinion. But they do not have the right to deny others that same right.

    Actually in a democracy everyone has the right to speak out, period...which way the country ends up going though isnt a "right" its how the majority decided it would turn out...in so far as actually denying anyone anything...well thats for the legal system to sort out once something is indeed made a right by law.


    That's not what I said, and you know it!

    It isnt?...Well who then gets to decide what children are allowed to be taught by their parents then?

    I just think it's bad enough that parents stuff their kids heads full of mythology, we don't need to have the schools doing it too. Just teach kids to think critically. Teach them not to believe everything someone tells them. Regardless of who it is.

    They dont see it as "mythology"...your still talking about taking even more parents "rights" away.


    Which probably explains why you have changed religions so much.

    Not at all...though I can understand why you would wish to make such a presumption.

    A good thing in my view. As I've said, I can respect your search, (I wasnt on some kind of religious scavenger hunt silly) and I still go to Lutheran Church because you are obviously thinking deeply about it. My only criticism, in your case, is that it seems to me you are always searching based on the premise that a god, or gods, exists.

    No I studied atheism at length and rejected it as being an unlikely and illogical conclussion to make about the universe.


    Again, you're misrepresenting what I'm saying. Since I have no religious beliefs there's nothing to replace other's beliefs with.

    So you offer "nothing". Now there is even "less" of a reason to listen too you.


    Don't think of it as a movement away from gods, but as a movement away from superstition.

    That however isnt how believers in a paticular religion feel...I hope you can one day respect that.

    Humans once had multiple gods, for everything.

    They still do in many cultures.

    Eventually they whittled that down to just one god (for the most part) although everyone has different opinions about what that one god is and what he wants.

    They even whittled it down to no gods in some movments (like the Communist ones) and we all know how that turned out.

    Perhaps now it is time to put aside that security blanket and accept that WE are responsible for what we do and only WE can make it right.

    Ive never heard anywhere during any of my time here on this earth of any religion that promotes an idea of anything less than self responsibility for ones actions. Not one.

    Gods, Santa Clause, fairies and leprechauns have no place in our lives except as sometimes amusing stories for children.

    And equating religious adherence to being a child or having faith in a God or Gods as being a belief in a Santa or fairies and leprechauns has no place in a debate about atheism and religion. Not if you expect the faithful to have any respect for what you saying. Insulting all people of faith is not the best way to influence them.

    Maybe this is where the real disagreement arises, and why religious people cling so hard to their gods. I am not offering anyone an alternative. I don't have anything that replaces religion or gods or faith. That would be like teaching you can lose weight by switching from Angel Food cake to Devil's Food cake. (Yeah, I did that on purpose! So sue me!) It isn't going to help. I'm saying eliminate the cake completely.

    You have to eat somthing...or you starve to death eventually.

    See and you said you didnt have a belief system...yet here you are defining the tenents of your faith:

    "Eliminate the superstitions completely. You don't need gods to do the right thing. You don't need gods to love other people. You don't need preachers to tell you to help your neighbor. Do it because it's the right thing to do, because it's the human thing to do".
    Just like the theists, telling other people "what" to believe.
    When love beckons to you, follow him,Though his ways are hard and steep. And when his wings enfold you yield to him, Though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound thee
    KAHLIL GIBRAN, The Prophet

  6. #6
    Just a little OFF
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    2,821
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by denuseri View Post
    atheism is a "belief" though
    Only by your interpretation, not by mine.

    So are tolerant Capitalists, democrats, republicans, and yes...atheists. Being against homo-sexuals is not a religious only thing.
    Yes, but the others don't claim to be the true arbiters of morality, the way theists do.

    well thats for the legal system to sort out once something is indeed made a right by law.
    Those rights have already been established by law. The law doesn't specify that you don't get those rights if you're homosexual, or if you're black, or if you're atheist, or if you're theist. The law applies to ALL. If any are given those rights, ALL must be given those rights. Which includes the right to worship (or not) as one wishes. NOT as someone else declares.

    They dont see it as "mythology"...your still talking about taking even more parents "rights" away.
    Nope, not even close. I'm talking about NOT teaching wishful thinking IN SCHOOLS. I never said anything about what parents should, or should not, be able to teach their kids.

    That being said, however, do you think parents should have the "right" to deny their children medical care when the children are ill, just because of their own religious beliefs? Should parents have the "right" to brutally beat their children because the Bible tells them not to spare the rod? Do you not agree that there are certain limits society, and the law, MUST place on parents when dealing with the health and welfare of their children?

    No I studied atheism at length and rejected it as being an unlikely and illogical conclussion to make about the universe.
    Just out of curiosity, how does one "study" atheism? Are their classes on it? Atheist seminaries? Are we atheists supposed to send our kids to Monday School or something?

    I am an atheist NOT because of what I believe, but because of what I do NOT believe. That's it. My views on science, evolution, cosmology, history, society, etc., have nothing to do with being an atheist. Yes, my understanding of those things probably influenced my non-belief, but is not defined by it.

    So you offer "nothing". Now there is even "less" of a reason to listen too you.
    You haven't been listening anyway, so what's the difference?

    That however isnt how believers in a paticular religion feel...I hope you can one day respect that.
    Respect it, no. Understand it, yes. But where does one draw the line between, "If I have sex outside of marriage I'll be sent to Hell," and "If I break a mirror I'll have seven years bad luck." Each of these statements have their believers. Neither are provable.

    Ive never heard anywhere during any of my time here on this earth of any religion that promotes an idea of anything less than self responsibility for ones actions.
    But if you pray hard enough, believe hard enough, send Pat Robertson enough money, God will forgive you!

    And equating religious adherence to being a child or having faith in a God or Gods as being a belief in a Santa or fairies and leprechauns has no place in a debate about atheism and religion.
    Why not? Show me how they are different. How is the idea that Santa Clause knows if you've been bad or good any different from the idea that God knows if you've been bad or good? How is writing a letter to Santa asking for gifts any different from praying to God asking for gifts?

    Sure, theist don't like those kinds of arguments, and will get all upset by them. Just as I get upset by your dogmatic insistence that atheism is a belief. Oh, well. Guess they'll have to learn to live with it, just like me.
    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche

  7. #7
    {Leo9}
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,443
    Post Thanks / Like
    Ive never heard anywhere during any of my time here on this earth of any religion that promotes an idea of anything less than self responsibility for ones actions.
    What about 'I must act like this because it is in the bible'? Or whatever religious book you have.

    I kill gays because they are an abomination in the eyes of god. I blow up planes because my god tells me to. I kill women if they do not wear the clothes (I think) my book says they should.

    Do these people feel responsible for their actions? No, their excuse is that it is the will of god!

    I am totally in agreement with you D that people have a right to have their religion in peace, and totally in agreement with T that it must be a private matter and must not impose on anyone else.

  8. #8
    Keeping the Ahh in Kajira
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Last paga tavern on the left.
    Posts
    5,625
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
    Only by your interpretation, not by mine.

    Not only by my interpetation, but that of the experts who defined the terminology and its meanings.


    Yes, but the others don't claim to be the true arbiters of morality, the way theists do.

    Or the way Atheists do?


    Those rights have already been established by law. The law doesn't specify that you don't get those rights if you're homosexual, or if you're black, or if you're atheist, or if you're theist. The law applies to ALL. If any are given those rights, ALL must be given those rights. Which includes the right to worship (or not) as one wishes. NOT as someone else declares.

    If that was the case there wouldnt be a schism in society right now between the proponents of gay marriage and the proponents against it. The law would allready have it covered.

    Nope, not even close. I'm talking about NOT teaching wishful thinking IN SCHOOLS. I never said anything about what parents should, or should not, be able to teach their kids.

    Really? Sure doesnt look that way.

    That being said, however, do you think parents should have the "right" to deny their children medical care when the children are ill, just because of their own religious beliefs? Should parents have the "right" to brutally beat their children because the Bible tells them not to spare the rod? Do you not agree that there are certain limits society, and the law, MUST place on parents when dealing with the health and welfare of their children?

    Last time I checked we have laws in place allready that cover all that.


    Just out of curiosity, how does one "study" atheism? Are their classes on it? Atheist seminaries? Are we atheists supposed to send our kids to Monday School or something?

    Its real simple, you can take a class in theology, or philosophy, or any history course that covers those time periods (where they will teach you about it.) or you can read any number of books and other things written on it in self study...just like anything else.

    I am an atheist NOT because of what I believe, but because of what I do NOT believe.

    Then why spend so much time telling us what your lack of belief entails...if its got nothing in it, it shouldnt need to be expounded upon at all.

    That's it. My views on science, evolution, cosmology, history, society, etc., have nothing to do with being an atheist. Yes, my understanding of those things probably influenced my non-belief, but is not defined by it.

    Just as a theists religious adherence does not nessesary have anything to do with any of that eaither.


    You haven't been listening anyway, so what's the difference?

    Oh Ive been listening....the real question is have you been listening to yourself?

    Respect it, no. That much is obvious...so much for all your clap trap conserning secularism. Understand it, yes. If you really understood it, you wouldnt be so adamantely set against its contemporary practice within the letter of the laws of our society today. But where does one draw the line between, "If I have sex outside of marriage I'll be sent to Hell," and "If I break a mirror I'll have seven years bad luck." Each of these statements have their believers. Neither are provable. You dont have to draw any line save for yourself and leave the lines other wish to draw for themselves.



    But if you pray hard enough, believe hard enough, send Pat Robertson enough money, God will forgive you!

    Ive never sent Pat a single dime...and truth be told I dont actually know anyone else who has...why people send their money to places though I believe is their own business in any event.


    Why not? Show me how they are different. How is the idea that Santa Clause knows if you've been bad or good any different from the idea that God knows if you've been bad or good? How is writing a letter to Santa asking for gifts any different from praying to God asking for gifts?

    Becuase one is a commonly acepted fairytale, where as the other is someone's belief system and as such is deserving of the same mutual respect you claim atheism deserves.

    Sure, theist don't like those kinds of arguments, and will get all upset by them. Just as I get upset by your dogmatic insistence that atheism is a belief. Oh, well. Guess they'll have to learn to live with it, just like me.
    Theists, like all people I am guessing dont like being insulted in such manner, that should be a given, and if you truely believed in secularism and wished to actual influence anyone one way or the other you wouldnt use inflamatory sophistry to accomplish the task. Youd practice what you claim to preach.
    When love beckons to you, follow him,Though his ways are hard and steep. And when his wings enfold you yield to him, Though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound thee
    KAHLIL GIBRAN, The Prophet

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Members who have read this thread: 0

There are no members to list at the moment.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Back to top