"Barely Submissive"- A Question of Being

[^firefly^]

his_j,

I think it's awesome how all our stories can inter-relate. I'm trying very hard to be "realistically submissive". Problem is, I'm used to being the boss. I've spent 5 years being a recovering doormat, and I'm all too used to calling the shots (in a lot of areas of my life, I still *enjoy* calling the shots). But your advice worked for me: "don't give up, just give in." I remind myself of that whenever it gets hard to let go, and I hear that whiny "but-I-don't-waaant-to" note in my voice. Case in point: last week, I was really sick, felt ugly, did *not* want to go out. He said, however, you will wear something sexy, you will put makeup on and fix your hair, and we are going out. I started to argue, but thought the better of it. And he was right; he loves how I look, even when I feel self-conscious and fat and ugly, and I had an awesome night. I know if I'd whined and argued with him about being sick, he likely would have given in and let me stay home...and then I would have moped around all night and been miserable. Sometimes, giving in is much more fun...

Sorry for the ramble...

[Beswitchingly Positive]

I've been thinking a lot about this topic since tessa brought it up and have been following the posts closely. I, too, like firefly's term: realistically submissive. To me it means to be submissive to the extent that I'm able at any given moment, understanding that sometimes real life just gets in the way. We will always fall short on anything that we want to do really well, simply because we're human and have trouble accepting that sometimes, good enough is good enough. After the months that I have been reading posts here, and knowing myself pretty well, I think that many submissives are perfectionists! We want to be perfect for our Doms - perfectly submissive, perfectly beautiful, perfectly sexy... Well, who the heck defines what perfect is? I vow, beginning now, to let my husband define perfect - not me, not society, not anyone else. I know (not just believe) that he is happy with me, as I am today. He likes the extent of submissiveness that I exhibit, he thinks I'm beautiful and sexy. I have no need to worry beyond that! I daresay that all of us with loving, sometimes deliciously harsh Doms in our life can say exactly the same thing. Let's celebrate that, rather than tear ourselves down.

Whew - didn't realize there was a rant inside me waiting to come out - it's over now!

AND don't the deliciously harsh doms seem to like it when we are not quite perfect? If there is no room for improvement, why punish?

Oh, right, beause it is damn sexy...

[tessa]

Whew - didn't realize there was a rant inside me waiting to come out - it's over now!

I'm kinda sad it's over. That was some wonderful ranting, jeanne.

Tom, if you weren't getting married on Saturday and weren't so in love with your slave and if I wasn't married and in love with my husband, and if we lived on the same continent and weren't oceans apart...

~takes a deep breath~

...I'd give you a big ol' kiss.

Logic, I loved what you said about the gift of submission. A wonderful thing to say.

firefly, ramble away. I got so much from you doing just that.

~thinks about Beswitchingly's so damn sexy punishment comment...moans~

[TomOfSweden]

Tom, if you weren't getting married on Saturday and weren't so in love with your slave and if I wasn't married and in love with my husband, and if we lived on the same continent and weren't oceans apart...

~takes a deep breath~

...I'd give you a big ol' kiss.

he he. I think that's the most careful invitation to naughtiness I've ever received. And if I weren't getting married on Saturday and I weren't so in love with my slave and if you wasn't married and in love with your husband, and if we lived on the same continent and weren't oceans apart...

...I'd not only kiss you back but might hazard to squeeze some of your naughty bits a tad.

[Dorkalicious]

It's gettin steamy in here LOL

[Hime]

I found this thread really interesting, because D and I were talking about this just last night. He was teasing me and said "But of course, you aren't really submissive." I said "what do you mean, of course I am!" and he said that he thinks that I am naturally submissive, but I still struggle with it all the time.

Personally, I don't mind the struggle. Sometimes it is frustrating when one impulse tells me to obey and another impulse tells me to fight, but giving in to my Master doesn't mean that I want to give up my whole personality. I think that I've earned my admittedly large ego through years of being way too tough on myself, and this relationship is the first time when I've even begun to accept myself for the messy but endearing pile of contradictions that I am. Being with D makes me feel like it's okay for me to be stubborn and arrogant sometimes, but it's still okay to be vulnerable and need taking care of as well. Obviously I can only speak for myself, but I don't really need to "move further" than that. There's nothing wrong with complicated women.

[Logic1]

For me a sub without some struggle is not very interresting. I need something to "work against" if you know what I mean.
feedback is nessecary to improve whatever it is you are doing and this area is no different.
Realistically submissive sounds understandeable and should work for most, except those that crave to be completely submissive to their Dom/Mistress.

Stubbornness and arrogance would abviously lead to spankings though Hime

[tessa]

he he. I think that's the most careful invitation to naughtiness I've ever received. And if I weren't getting married on Saturday and I weren't so in love with my slave and if you wasn't married and in love with your husband, and if we lived on the same continent and weren't oceans apart...

...I'd not only kiss you back but might hazard to squeeze some of your naughty bits a tad.

~giggles and claps~ A naughty-bit squeeze from Tom!! Ok, it's only in my imaginings, but mmm mmm mmm!! Yum!

Hime, the way you said what you said...well, it just made so much sense to me. The "move forward" idea came about as a result of a comment I heard. You gave me a positive for my negative, so thanks.

Thanks for what you said, Logic. After all the feedback here, it's much easier to process the concept. Also, because of your response to Hime, I get to think about spankings now.

[Logic1]

I get to think about spankings now.

nothing wrong with thinking about spankings (best I could find^^)

[moptop]

Oh, my goodness, I can't believe I've missed this thread. I truly believe it is the best, deepest, most helpful thread on submission and what it is to (learn to) be submissive, that I have ever read, here or elsewhere.

Thank you everyone. Firstly - thank you for speaking my thoughts for me, and mostly, far more eloquently (and far more succinctly) than I seem able to do. Tessa, you are amazing - and yes, sometimes we think too much. Red - thank you for sharing that very personal insight into your own path with us. It took great courage to do it, and I left my last relationship after 5 years for very similar reasons.

I could go through and quote everyone and everything... but I won't. I will stick with quoting jeanine, just above:

We want to be perfect for our Doms - perfectly submissive, perfectly beautiful, perfectly sexy... Well, who the heck defines what perfect is? I vow, beginning now, to let my husband define perfect

Obviously, the italics are mine. This made me think - when he asks me to do something simple, such as send a photograph or show myself on cam when I'm not expecting it, and I protest - no, I can't, I'm ugly/fat/don't look good for whatever other reason - and he answers 'Let me be the judge of that'.

Let me be able to accept that. Let me be able to accept that he loves and desires me, and that what he sees is beautiful. Let me be able to let go. Let me be able to, yes, give up; give up my own fears and thoughts and feelings to him. Let me be brave enough to open myself to this love and care that is offered. Let me, please, submit... as much as I want to submit. Let me, please, stop being afraid of myself and of my own desires.

Please let me open up. Please wait for me to open up. Please help me to open up. I know it's in there. But meanwhile - well, yes - please put up with me!!!

And my answer to myself is? Time. Time and trust. Time and trust and communication. Time and trust and communication and love. He will wait for me to get there; he wants me to get there; he knows I try... we both need what the other needs, in one another.

Barely submissive... hmm. Sometimes, not submissive at all!

[tessa]

nothing wrong with thinking about spankings (best I could find^^)

Logic, thank you! You found just fine!

Please let me open up. Please wait for me to open up. Please help me to open up. I know it's in there. But meanwhile - well, yes - please put up with me!!!

Oh yes, that! Oh moptop, THAT is what I've been trying to say to myself and couldn't even get it thought like I wanted. Your praise for everyone else's responses must indeed be heaped on your most insightful reply as well. ~hugs~

[jeanne]

moptop - I second tessa's comment. You've summed up exactly how so many of us feel. Thanks so much!

[Flaming_Redhead]

I third it! It's exactly what I couldn't say either.

[moptop]

Oh! and there was me thinking that everyone else had managed to say what I couldn't say! Well... it's nice to know we're not alone, isn't it, ladies?

And as I think about it a little more (damn that thinking), I see it as normal and right and part of the joint journey, that we should have this slow bending to their will and desire, this slow giving away of ourselves. As I feel the joy and relief of finally being able to let go of something - however small - I imagine that he feels a joy and pride in being allowed to take it. A series of small triumphs for each. If it all happened at once - well, it would be boring, wouldn't it?

[jeanne]

Well said, moptop. Very true.

[Hime]

Stubbornness and arrogance would abviously lead to spankings though Hime

Uh-oh...

[jeanne]

I've been thinking a lot in the last few weeks about how I define submission for myself (again) and have had some really intense conversations with a good friend (hi ) who's on the same wavelength. So I bumped this thread back up because I remember it being so full of wisdom and information and affirmation...and it is.

Barely submissive? Maybe the difference is just opportunity, chemistry, like minds... As has been stated in other threads, by both dominants and submissives, we can only submit to the extent that they dominate - they can only dominate to the extent that we submit. A very, very vital, fluid relationship. And we really do depend on each other deeply to realize the fullest extent of our dominance or submission. More than I realized even a month ago.

I guess I'll just never stop learning,
jeanne

[tessa]

we can only submit to the extent that they dominate - they can only dominate to the extent that we submit. A very, very vital, fluid relationship. And we really do depend on each other deeply to realize the fullest extent of our dominance or submission.

I am always in awe when it is all said exactly as it should be.

I guess I'll just never stop learning,

I hope none of us ever do, for the learning is the journey.

[moptop]

Oh, I'm so glad you bumped this thread, his_j! Because I gained a moment of insight this morning, when talking to another French dom (i.e. not mine, but known to us both). I'll have to paraphrase the beginning, to save translating the whole conversation, lol.

Me - I'd like to be able to react like that, I mean - and to stay, I don't know, conscious - in control - to be able to react and not simply be led by the emotions of the moment.
Him - I think it is not only about emotions, it works sometimes through a true uncoupling (or disengagement) from reality. A total abandonment takes place
Me - Yes... I don't know if I manage that either - maybe sometimes - certainly, one leaves to one side the constraints of logic
Him - You talk that way, no doubt, because you are not very advanced on this path of submission, but it will come. Perhaps you still wish to retain a certain control over the other
Me - Over the other... No, over myself, I think, above all
Him - Certainly, but that implies domination of the other
Me - Oh!
Me - I'm going to have to think about that
Him - lol - yes, think about it carefully. Because the swing happens at precisely this point

I hope the translation works so that you can see - and appreciate - the moment that made me go 'Oh!'. I'd just never thought of it that way.

[DarkPoet]

Are we stuck at 'barely submissive'? Is that as far as we can ever hope to go? Is there a way, ways even, that we can step out of this almost-there box and be more of what we dream we can be? Is it possible to be shown the way out of "barely" and led towards that beautiful abyss of total submission? Is it worth the struggle of becoming or do we just give up and accept the place we are, even if it's not where we want to be?

Hi tessa,

that's a difficult, quite philosophical question. I'm not sure if, with that constraint called life we all carry with us, something like "total submission" is really possible without a total loss of oneself. Submitting totally would mean loosing all those moments filled with excitement, fear and sweaty hands along with the joy, satisfaction and gratefulness afterwards of having been led (and having let myself be led) to overcome my limitations. I wouldn't want to loose that.

Sexual submission is a lot like mountain climbing. After the first excitement you find yourself really tasked, often insecure about the next steps. If you look up at your target, you don't think you can make it, but you keep on climbing because you know that there's a big reward waiting for you. Even if you hurt and are exhausted, you will yourself onwards, sometimes with bare millimeters of grip left for your aching fingers. And somehow you make it to the peak and experience a freedom only few others know, and you ride it as long as you can.

But, inevitably, you have to climb down again and face your usual life, and you mourn for the feeling of having reached the peak. But, luckily, there's always a higher mountain - tough more tasking, but with a higher peak.

[Flaming_Redhead]

Just an update here....I asked my dom if he thought I was still barely submissive or more like almost. He said that he thinks a fair argument could be made for me not being in the barely submissive category.

WOO HOO HOO!!!!!! Progress!!!!! I'm not hopeless after all.

[tessa]

Him - You talk that way, no doubt, because you are not very advanced on this path of submission, but it will come. Perhaps you still wish to retain a certain control over the other
Me - Over the other... No, over myself, I think, above all
Him - Certainly, but that implies domination of the other
Me - Oh!
Me - I'm going to have to think about that.

Me too! Wow! Never, ever considered it quite in that way. Wow. But thanks to you, moptop, now I can.

Hi tessa,

Hi there, DarkPoet.

that's a difficult, quite philosophical question. I'm not sure if, with that constraint called life we all carry with us, something like "total submission" is really possible without a total loss of oneself. Submitting totally would mean loosing all those moments filled with excitement, fear and sweaty hands along with the joy, satisfaction and gratefulness afterwards of having been led (and having let myself be led) to overcome my limitations. I wouldn't want to loose that.

This as well- never considered it from this vantage point. I will now, however, that's for sure. And I will learn much because of it.

Sexual submission is a lot like mountain climbing. After the first excitement you find yourself really tasked, often insecure about the next steps. If you look up at your target, you don't think you can make it, but you keep on climbing because you know that there's a big reward waiting for you. Even if you hurt and are exhausted, you will yourself onwards, sometimes with bare millimeters of grip left for your aching fingers. And somehow you make it to the peak and experience a freedom only few others know, and you ride it as long as you can.

Ok, first... ~moans~ And secondly, this is a wonderful way of describing the journey. I'm very able to see this in an entirely new light thanks to your words.

Just an update here....I asked my dom if he thought I was still barely submissive or more like almost. He said that he thinks a fair argument could be made for me not being in the barely submissive category.

WOO HOO HOO!!!!!! Progress!!!!! I'm not hopeless after all.

You never were hopeless, sweetie. Not ever. ~hugs~

[Arria]

Before I met my now master and husband, I was in a relationship with an abusive, insecure, control freak asshole person.
That man changed my attitude toward new people (not only lovers! in general!) from "I think you are a nice person until you prove me the opposite" to "I think you are an asshole until you prove me the opposite... and mind, you´ll have to try VERY hard".

It takes time to learn to trust again. By little steps. Then you see the new man does not take advantage of the weakness you bared, and you are more brave next time. Again - it takes time. And a person who is willing to take you as you are. Not a person who is just seeking a brainless, spineless toy.

Mind, the toy-seekers are the ones who call me "not really devote", or "pretty big-mouthed for a sub".

It is a kind of test. If you call yourself a male Dom, and are scared by me, or let me push you into an uncontrolled state of mind, you are a weakling and a coward and therefore not worth my time and love.

Those toy-seekers will never be able to even begin to imagine what I am like toward my real master. And tell you what? I am VERY glad about that fact!

Kind regards
Arria

[Arria]

And if my hubby ever gets tired of me, I will apply to Sir Russell.
Or to GreyJack, as he makes me laugh so often.

:-)

[dorsch]

sound like the kingdom farfaraway I'm still not tired of you and toys makes only fun for a weekend or a night, not for a relationship.

[Arria]

Aw. *blush* *melt* Don´t be so nice to me or else I have to be extra-nice to you the next 10 times!!!! *wink*
:-)))

[tessa]

Do you ENJOY submission? Does your arrangement work for you? If it does, then who cares what anyone calls it. Maybe you feel submissive only on certain days in certain ways in certain places. Are you only a 1/3 submissive? Hell no. You are a submissive who lives in reality.

This idea of yours, delia, is one of the reasons why I posed the question in the first place. Why is it for anyone else to quantify or qualify another's most deeply held feelings and thoughts? My answer? It's not. We are who we are. There shouldn't be a label placed on it at all.

tessa

[cadence]

Originally Posted by delia
Do you ENJOY submission? Does your arrangement work for you? If it does, then who cares what anyone calls it. Maybe you feel submissive only on certain days in certain ways in certain places. Are you only a 1/3 submissive? Hell no. You are a submissive who lives in reality.

This idea of yours, delia, is one of the reasons why I posed the question in the first place. Why is it for anyone else to quantify or qualify another's most deeply held feelings and thoughts? My answer? It's not. We are who we are. There shouldn't be a label placed on it at all.

tessa

It took me a long time to realize that there was no definitive guideline as to how submissive I was supposed to be.

There is the other side of the coin however.
Maybe I just don't fully understand it yet, but when there is no one on the receiving end to appreciatate your submissiveness then it just seems futile.
How can you understand and feel submissive when the other person will not respond.

It's hard to continue on as if things are normal, and try to maintain whatever you can out of it.
I have tried, but in the end I feel useless, betrayed and inadequate

[Flaming_Redhead]

Why is it for anyone else to quantify or qualify another's most deeply held feelings and thoughts? My answer? It's not. We are who we are. There shouldn't be a label placed on it at all.

I don't particularly care if I meet someone else's criteria for submissiveness, but I struggle with knowing that deep down I want to be able to give in totally to someone else and feeling as if I'm holding myself back out of fear. That's the real issue, I think, for me. I'm not trying to live up to some set in stone ideal that says I have to be this way or that way. I think if I was it would be easier than trying to live up to my own perfectionist ideology.

It took me a long time to realize that there was no definitive guideline as to how submissive I was supposed to be.

There is the other side of the coin however.
Maybe I just don't fully understand it yet, but when there is no one on the receiving end to appreciatate your submissiveness then it just seems futile.
How can you understand and feel submissive when the other person will not respond.

It's hard to continue on as if things are normal, and try to maintain whatever you can out of it.
I have tried, but in the end I feel useless, betrayed and inadequate

I've been there and done that. I had a Christian marriage counselor tell me that I needed to come under my husband's wing. My frustration was that there was NO wing to come under! Talk about betrayal....left standing in the open all by yourself. That's all water under the bridge, though. It didn't work out. I now have a wing to come under, so to speak, and found myself darting under only to run back out again. lol I think I've finally made some progress in the trust department...trusting myself and trusting him. This is what I've been waiting for! When he responds to my efforts to please him, my heart soars.

[Sir_Russell]

I guess I should have visited here more often. First Flaming-Redhead trying to be who you aren't is very hard and trying, some times life only offers us one path and no choices. You got to that point and thankfully you did what you had to do. I only wish I was graced to guide you through this life and growth.

Second Arria I am very proud of your remrk but I do hope that you continue on with your loving Dom and never have to go through a breakup you don't want.

jeanne I don't think anyone could have said it better, you summed up submission, let the Dom decide what is perfect, course the Dom must know you well and value you beyond anything else in his life. Then his perfect will be what you both want and need.

My only request of a sub/slave that is etched in stone is that she shows me the respect that I have earned, nothing more nothing less. That keeps me on my toes knowing that I must earn the respect each day. I have just gone through a couple of months with morgan disrespecting often and deeply, mostly through her own self doubt and negativity. Hardly respectful to call the man / Dom you claim to love a liar, thief, and other things on a daily basis with little or no basis for it. I have all ways shown her respect till just lately and now I do not dare to let love or respect for her grow again for the same reasons that Flaming-Redhead took 10 years to figure out.