the story of Our Lady "the Virgin Mary" in the muslims holly book (quran)

[domaster]

Originally Posted by Thorne

but it can be fun when you can use their holy books against them. I'll need to familiarize myself more with the Quran, though, if I want to be more effective.

well im Always waiting for you to use my holy book against me
all what do u did untill now its Misrepresentation verses to make it look bad
but still u can Always try

[Thorne]

Done.

[nerameshu]

Look, all I can say (as an Agnostic in his 20's) is that the only words in the Bible I believe to be "true to God" are the words spoken by Jesus Christ. The rest of the Bible? Well, before Jesus enters the scene, it was about sex and sacrificing lambs to get to Heaven. (Genesis, the first book, is God's Earth Creation To-Do list and the genealogy of the first tribe, descended from Adam and Eve.) After Jesus, the Bible is nothing more than musings of men on the word of God.

domaster, I have yet to read more than a few pages of the Qu'ran, and for that, I apologize. I cannot hold much of a first-hand conversation with you, because I'm not well versed in the Holy Book. (Although, I can speak a little Arabic, and I would love to here the Qu'ran read by a native speaker.) However, if I may suggest it, could you, perhaps, read the words spoken only by Mohammed, followed by the words spoken only by Jesus in the Bible, and see what you think? Again, if I may suggest it. I'm not trying to sway you to one side or the other.

Final notes: I wasn't raised in a religious house-hold. I see flaws in every system of belief, including, and especially, Atheism. However, I can, and will, respect all peoples' beliefs, as your beliefs are your right. But when talking about a religion, philosophy, or life-path, look not at the hateful people around you. Look to the message of that system's main human.

Also, being raised in the Bible Belt, I do not know many Christians who would love too many people at all. In fact, most of them hate me, through and through. But the few Muslims I have talked to are not only the most respectful people I know, but they have promised to go out of their way just to teach me about Islam, should I ask them to.

[Thorne]

Look, all I can say (as an Agnostic in his 20's) is that the only words in the Bible I believe to be "true to God" are the words spoken by Jesus Christ.

NONE of the Gospels are contemporary accounts of Jesus. ALL were written long after his death, and probably not by his disciples. There is enough contradiction between the four gospels to raise suspicions of all of them. There is certainly no historical evidence outside of the bible that Jesus (as depicted in the gospels) even existed. So how can his "words" be "true to God"?

I see flaws in every system of belief, including, and especially, Atheism.

This one drives me nuts! Atheism is NOT a system of belief. It is a LACK of belief in gods. It's that simple. A rather bad analogy (but the only one I can come up with at the moment) is that Atheism is a belief like NOT collecting stamps is a hobby. Do atheists have flaws? Of course they do! I know I do! But those flaws are NOT necessarily related to their lack of belief in supernatural beings.

[thir]

And it's all based on "revelations" from an angel? If someone today tried to make that claim they would be immediately placed into an institution! (Or maybe not! The claims made by Scientologists are even more fantastical, even more insane, and they've managed to stay out of the asylums.)

You have an interesting point here. In a religious society that believes in angels, you'll still get put away for thinking you saw some. Why is that?

However, all the evangelists who claim they speak for God, and therefore must have talked to him, are believed.

Ordinary people who think the same thing are put away. Why?

[thir]

Here in the US I can see the Christians mounting stronger and stronger attacks upon our government and education systems, trying to infiltrate their beliefs into everyday life for everyone.

Hasn't that slowed down some under Obama? I thought it was Bush feeding a lot of this.

While professing tolerance they mount verbal and physical attacks against non-Christians and atheists.

Well, the verbal ones are just freedom of speech.

[thir]

With the arguable exception of Stalinist Russia, I can't think of an example of atheist persecutions.

China? South Africa? Slavery? Racism?

[thir]

Focus on common ground as opposed to making things worse by fostering divisions?[/QUOTE]

Yes - we simply have to.

[thir]

Just got to Tantric's post. Sorry, you are right.

[Thorne]

However, all the evangelists who claim they speak for God, and therefore must have talked to him, are believed.

Ordinary people who think the same thing are put away. Why?

My guess would be that the evangelists don't like it! After all, if just ANYONE can speak for God, where's the incentive to give all your money to the REALLY slick operators?

[Thorne]

Well, the verbal ones are just freedom of speech.

Only if they are Christians. I'd love to see what a judge would say if it were Muslims saying those things which the Westboro clowns vomit out. Or atheists. Bet it wouldn't be a freedom of speech issue then.

[Thorne]

China? South Africa? Slavery? Racism?

Were any of these done to promote the cause of atheism?

Yes, bad things can be done by anyone, atheists included. But I don't know of any atrocities which were committed in the name of atheism. History is littered with examples of atrocities committed in the name of religions, on the other hand. And many of those atrocities were condoned, if not instigated, by the leaders of those religions.

[denuseri]

NONE of the Gospels are contemporary accounts of Jesus. ALL were written long after his death, and probably not by his disciples. There is enough contradiction between the four gospels to raise suspicions of all of them. There is certainly no historical evidence outside of the bible that Jesus (as depicted in the gospels) even existed. So how can his "words" be "true to God"?


This one drives me nuts! Atheism is NOT a system of belief. It is a LACK of belief in gods. It's that simple. A rather bad analogy (but the only one I can come up with at the moment) is that Atheism is a belief like NOT collecting stamps is a hobby. Do atheists have flaws? Of course they do! I know I do! But those flaws are NOT necessarily related to their lack of belief in supernatural beings.

LMAO

It's not the aethiests that are nessesarally so flawed Thorne, but the idea of aethism itself.

[denuseri]

You have an interesting point here. In a religious society that believes in angels, you'll still get put away for thinking you saw some. Why is that?

Blinks, I just watched Roma Downey touch someone the other day and Im not in the looney bin.

Seriously? An admission of faith or a claim of seeing an angel in and of itself has to my knowledge never resulted in any one being put away in the modern era where one has to be diagnosed with an actual mental ilness first.

However, all the evangelists who claim they speak for God, and therefore must have talked to him, are believed.

Imho the televangelists are in it for the money, Ive never trusted their lot.

Ordinary people who think the same thing are put away. Why?

I know lots and lots of people who express a belief in angels, ghosts and what have you, and not a one of them is in any danger of being dragged off to the mental ward.

[denuseri]

Hasn't that slowed down some under Obama? I thought it was Bush feeding a lot of this.

If anything its the other way around from what he is presenting from what Ive seen over here.



Well, the verbal ones are just freedom of speech.

Smh, I also havent seen any aethiests being attacked.

[denuseri]

Were any of these done to promote the cause of atheism?

Yes, bad things can be done by anyone, atheists included. But I don't know of any atrocities which were committed in the name of atheism. History is littered with examples of atrocities committed in the name of religions, on the other hand. And many of those atrocities were condoned, if not instigated, by the leaders of those religions.

Here we go again huh?

Read up on the Communists and get back to us on that one, it was their idea to have state funded, state promoted, religious persecution. Which all the more just proves my point made way back before, about how its not the religions doing the bad stuff...its bad people doing bad stuff and misussing the "ideas" presented in any given philosophy, religion, creedo, etc.

<< goes to check the thread's topic, comes back, rme.

So whats all that got to do with Islam and Chiristianity having a chance to get along?

Or are you back to your same ole agenda of creating division so common ground cant be talked about between "theists".

[denuseri]

Inquiry: I understand that Christianity and Islam can never co-exist in peace with each other because of their extreme dogmas.

Is this true?

Response: From the perspective of both Islam and Christianity, this statement is not true.

In fact, from the very beginning Christianity has co-existed peacefully with other religions, including religions that opposed it.

For example, the leaders of the Jewish religion considered the truth claims of Christianity blasphemous; and, as a result, the leaders attempted to kill those who followed it whenever they could. Saul of Tarsus (see Acts 9) persecuted Christians. But the Christians did not therefore view it as their duty to revenge their persecutors. Rather, Christians are instructed by Holy Scripture to "live at peace with all men" (Romans 12:18, see also Hebrews 12:14), including those with whom we disagree.

Its part of that whole "tiruning the other cheek" thing.

Attempts to execute wrath upon others are totally contrary to the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

(Sadly, it must be acknowledged that not all Christians have truly followed the teachings of the Bible in this respect.)

And when they do commit acts of agression and violence against one another, they are in fact breaking the tennents of their respected faiths.

Technically that makes them automatically excomunicated from said religion by defualt in the eyes of some.


According to Dr. James. A McBean D.Th., MCC :

"Men lacking the will to understand other men, in time will became like the beasts, and the beasts ways of life, will be ours. When we consider how religion comes about, it is rather stupid, for people to hate each other over religious dogmas. Especially over something that base on other people dreams. The founder of our leading religions, said that they got a vision of God. Some said they had a vision or a dream of an angel giving them the revelation for the book that they have written. Moses said an angel has spoken to him. Joseph Smith, the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" said it was the angel name.Moronic Spoken to him. Mary said: it was an angel name. Gabriel spoken to her. Joseph the husband of Mary said: it was an angel told him in a dream about Jesus. Mohammed the founder of Islam said it was an angel name. Gabriel gives him the revelation to wrote the Koran. ...

All the foundation religions are base on a vision of an angels or a dream. It is up to each man to believe it or reject it.

If it makes you feel good to believe it, then go ahead and believe it. If it makes you feel better not to believe it, by all means go ahead and do not believe it."

Ok who is right?

Does it really matter? No. It only matters to each and every individual.

No one has the right to say their way is best any more than anyone else (yes that includes you agnostics and aethists out there too).

Science hasnt proven anything one way or the other. It may never be able to do so for all we know in the forceable future.

So why make such a fuss.

All these base faiths say basically the same message. :live in peace with one another, love thy nieghbor as yourself, and it harm not others do as thou wilt, etc etc

Why not let every one Tend to their own garden as Voltaire suggests in Candide?

All each and everyone of us that wishes to abide by what appears to be our collective idealized vision of God's message (or personalized philosophy of "reason"...no matter what our chosen path, would need to do is let go of all that angst and hate we hold inside ourselves for the other guy.

Just say, ok thats fine, you can believe or not in what you wish to, no skin off my nose, lets still be good brothers and sisters to each other and press on with life and leave the bad parts of ourselves behind.

How about it?

Anyone here want to give that a try?

I'm certiantly game.

[denuseri]

According to Deen-ul-Islam Da'wah:

Islam is the religion of all prophets. Muslims believe that all the prophets were sent to their respective peoples from God (Allah). They all had the same mission and message - guiding people to the right path.

The three revealed, monotheistic religions, Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, go back to Abraham. The prophets of these religions were directly descended from him - Moses, Jesus and others from Isaac, but Muhammad from Isma'il. It was Prophet Abraham who had established the settlement which today is the city of Makkah, and with his son Isma'il built the Ka'bah, which Muslims all over the world face when they pray.

Christians and Jews hold a special place in Islam. They are called the People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitab), since the original Torah and Gospel were also divinely revealed and they shared in the prophetic tradition. Islamic states have nearly always shown their religious minorities tolerance and respect and those communities flourished under Islamic rule. God says:
"...Those who believe (in the message of Islam), and the Jews, the Sabaeans, and the Christians - all those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and act righteously - no fear shall come upon them..." [5:69]
Setting up the Islamic state in Madinah, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) further warned:
"Whoever oppresses any Dhimmi (non-Muslim citizen of the Islamic state), I shall be his prosecutor on the Day of Judgment."
In setting up the Islamic state, Prophet Muhammad made it inclusive of the Arabian Jews and Christians. Their persons, properties, churches and synagogues were protected, freedom of worship was guaranteed, and they controlled their own community affairs with their own civil and religious laws and courts. For most of the first century of the Islamic state, in fact, the majority of the citizens were Christians, enjoying peace and liberty such as they had not had even under Christian Rome or Byzantium.

The Jews, from the very beginning in Madinah, and later everywhere else, were lifted from the burden of being clients of individual Arab tribes to being citizens of the state, thus freeing them to focus on their Jewishness. When the Islamic state expanded outside Arabia the Jews of other lands were treated for the first time as liberated citizens. Judaism flourished as never before, with Jews even serving in Muslim armies and administrations while their culture bloomed in the arts, sciences, medicine and philosophy. This knowledge they transmitted to their brethren in the hostile climate of Christian Europe. Even Jewish mysticism originated under the influence of sufism and spread to northern Europe.
When Islam reached Persia the concept of People of the Book was extended to the Zoroastrians as well. Later, when the Muslims conquered parts of India and encountered Buddhists and Hindus, who appeared to worship idols, the question was referred to the ulema (council of scholars), who judged that even they could have the same protected status as the Jews and Christians, so long as they did not fight Islam and they paid the Jizyah tax.

[domaster]

thanx denuseri
that was very good ...
& one more thing
the islamic civilization was Built by arab - Jews - Christians & all who live in this civilization
& it was exampel of modern civilization Builted by Science & Peace & Law
well Generally...

[domaster]

i want share with u this beautiful thing
its kid from "iran" i think ... its not arabian
but the way how speak the arab Language & the way how he read the from the holly book Quran with the 3 "Novel correct"
i hope you watch that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHISO...yer_detailpage
& this the original reader from Egypt "abdou baset abdou elsamad"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=4mx4-kfJLCU

[Thorne]

i hope you watch that

To what point? I would be willing to bet that few here understood either of these, and, while the boy in the first link did have a remarkable voice, there was nothing there which I found to be interesting. What is your reason for posting these?

(see, denuseri? I'm trying to be polite!)

[domaster]

To what point? I would be willing to bet that few here understood either of these, and, while the boy in the first link did have a remarkable voice, there was nothing there which I found to be interesting. What is your reason for posting these?

(see, denuseri? I'm trying to be polite!)

well thank you but like franch people say's
"chaqu'un son gou" and "les gout ca s'peut pas"
look for it your self

[Thorne]

well thank you but like franch people say's
"chaqu'un son gou" and "les gout ca s'peut pas"
look for it your self

Yes, and in English we say, "To each his own." I have no problem with that, but it still doesn't explain your reason for posting those clips. Was there a message there which I have missed? (I did take a message away from the first video, but I'm sure that you wouldn't want to hear it.) Or are you simply proselytizing, trying to spread your religion to the infidels? (In which case, in my opinion, all the gloves come off. Or, to use another thing we say in English, "No more Mr. Nice Guy!")

[domaster]

1)
i was talking to "denuseri" about the islamic civilization & Prosperity Which appeared on thos times with involvement all religions & all Races
to Built this civilization in the govern of islamic civilization
2)
my friend ur the one who trying so hard & so badly Fighting & Mockeing all the posts that talk about religions
3)
(Or, to use another thing we say in English, "No more Mr. Nice Guy!")
is that Threat or something ???
4)
i dont Waste my time with someone like you Because u believe on god but you Fighte it & you Denying that god exist
why ... ???? only god know
your prolme is not with the believer its between u & god
Solve the problem with your self & stop Attacking the others people

[domaster]

btw ur so Wrong about that and in English we say, "To each his own
keep looking Because u look so Lazy for some one try hard

[Thorne]

btw ur so Wrong about that and in English we say, "To each his own
keep looking Because u look so Lazy for some one try hard

Well let's see here. My handy-dandy Google Translator says that "chaqu'un son gou" means "each one his government", and "les gout ca s'peut pas" means "how can He not the taste". Neither of these seems to mean much to me in context with the religious theme of your posts, but "To each his own" does imply that every person is entitled to his own opinion, whether of tastes or governments, or even religion.

So please, tell me where I've gone wrong here.

[Thorne]

1)
i was talking to "denuseri" about the islamic civilization & Prosperity Which appeared on thos times with involvement all religions & all Races
to Built this civilization in the govern of islamic civilization

So those two clips were representative of Islamic Civilization? That's fine, that's all I asked. I had no clue to what they were supposed to represent. (However, I think you will find that the high achievements of Islamic civilization had more to do with science than with religion.)

3)
(Or, to use another thing we say in English, "No more Mr. Nice Guy!")
is that Threat or something ???

No threat intended, just a statement that proselytizing opens the gates for arguments against what you preach, that's all.

4)
i dont Waste my time with someone like you Because u believe on god but you Fighte it & you Denying that god exist
why ... ???? only god know

I do NOT deny that God exists, only that there is no evidence to show that he does. And even if there were evidence of gods, there is no evidence that YOUR god (or anyone elses god) is the one TRUE god.

your prolme is not with the believer its between u & god
Solve the problem with your self & stop Attacking the others people

Nope, there's no problem between me and any god. The problem exists solely between the believers and the non-believers.

I have stated repeatedly that if there were evidence of gods, any gods, good solid scientific evidence, then I would reverse my position and accept the existence of those gods. So let me ask you, what would convince you that your beliefs are wrong, and that Allah does NOT exist?

[TantricSoul]

see, denuseri? I'm trying to be polite!)

And I do appreciate that Thorne!

[domaster]

Well let's see here. My handy-dandy Google Translator says that "chaqu'un son gou" means "each one his government", and "les gout ca s'peut pas" means "how can He not the taste". Neither of these seems to mean much to me in context with the religious theme of your posts, but "To each his own" does imply that every person is entitled to his own opinion, whether of tastes or governments, or even religion.

So please, tell me where I've gone wrong here.

chaqu'un son gou = evry one have his own tast

les gout ca s'peut pas" mean = the tast its thing that Does not discussed

[domaster]

I have lots of friends Muslim & Christian & Godless or apostate … I don’t know how call
Like I said we live all together we eat together & have Dinner together & there is how get Marry
& we have talk about god & religion time to time
All this & more & I have never Noted what you call it ….
Fight or War Against non believers
& show your post to some of my friends “non believers”
They Laughter lot

denuseri this is for you sweety
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaBux...yer_detailpage