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Thorne Religion or Atheism? An open... 05-15-2011, 08:37 PM
Thorne No, simply believing in them... 05-15-2011, 08:44 PM
Thorne I've read about Communism,... 05-15-2011, 08:50 PM
Thorne I'm not sure if you're... 05-15-2011, 09:21 PM
denuseri Dear Thorne I have no... 05-15-2011, 11:54 PM
Thorne And yet, if I'd answered them... 05-16-2011, 06:35 AM
TantricSoul Thank you Thorne for giving... 05-16-2011, 10:22 PM
thir And yet, when one tries to... 05-19-2011, 10:31 AM
Thorne As seems to be the case here. 05-19-2011, 01:27 PM
thir There you go. I would like to... 05-21-2011, 12:05 AM
Thorne Might be a good idea. I'll... 05-21-2011, 06:02 AM
MMI I, for one, wish TS would... 06-16-2011, 06:12 PM
Thorne I agree whole-heartedly! 06-16-2011, 07:22 PM
domaster well to be clear about god...... 05-27-2011, 10:47 AM
Thorne For anyone who's interested,... 05-27-2011, 12:22 PM
Thorne I've just read this article... 06-07-2011, 07:11 AM
thir She certainly knows her own... 06-08-2011, 05:15 PM
Thorne I agree with you to a point,... 06-08-2011, 08:39 PM
thir I wish I knew. But I imagine... 06-09-2011, 01:33 PM
MMI So ... this thread is a... 06-10-2011, 05:33 PM
Thorne Please do! You know I always... 06-10-2011, 09:38 PM
MMI You reject blind faith and/or... 06-14-2011, 03:54 PM
Thorne Yes, I do. Without evidence,... 06-14-2011, 09:42 PM
Lion I believe in a god. It gives... 06-16-2011, 11:37 AM
Thorne I agree with you, Lion. It's... 06-16-2011, 01:28 PM
thir Some here enjoy fencing with... 06-17-2011, 06:48 AM
MMI OK, let's try again from... 06-16-2011, 06:00 PM
Thorne I agree, as long as the gods... 06-16-2011, 07:22 PM
MMI There you go again, trying to... 06-17-2011, 05:37 PM
Thorne Perhaps not, but there would... 06-17-2011, 08:28 PM
denuseri MMI: I dont know why... 06-16-2011, 08:36 PM
Thorne I'm hurt, denuseri! I'm... 06-16-2011, 09:20 PM
denuseri Dear Thorne: (or to whom... 06-18-2011, 11:43 AM
Thorne Note that second part,... 06-18-2011, 07:48 PM
denuseri So your willing to conclude... 06-18-2011, 09:29 PM
Thorne And here is where we seem to... 06-19-2011, 08:09 AM
TwistedTails If there were a God it would... 06-18-2011, 08:09 PM
denuseri So you do not agree even with... 06-19-2011, 11:52 AM
Thorne <sigh> Okay, yes, atheism is... 06-19-2011, 06:37 PM
MMI As to the burnt bush, there... 06-19-2011, 01:42 PM
Thorne So you're saying I should... 06-19-2011, 06:52 PM
MMI Moses and the Burning Bush ... 06-20-2011, 04:09 PM
thir However, there are scientists... 06-20-2011, 04:29 PM
Thorne Exactly! And in these kinds... 06-20-2011, 07:44 PM
Thorne Not because of his faith, but... 06-20-2011, 07:42 PM
denuseri Without your all convincing... 06-19-2011, 08:01 PM
Thorne Agreed, at least in... 06-20-2011, 06:56 AM
denuseri If your contention was that... 06-20-2011, 03:12 PM
Thorne Sorry, but atheism has... 06-20-2011, 07:17 PM
denuseri Oh dear have I perhaps struck... 06-20-2011, 10:50 PM
Thorne Really? That's the extent of... 06-21-2011, 07:37 AM
thir In the case of a God, or Gods... 06-22-2011, 02:41 PM
denuseri If they did, they sure didnt... 06-22-2011, 03:31 PM
denuseri I see that more along the... 06-24-2011, 09:15 AM
Thorne Sorry, I didn't mean to imply... 06-24-2011, 10:04 AM
MMI At the moment, I don't think... 06-25-2011, 07:34 PM
Thorne The rules are very simple,... 06-25-2011, 07:59 PM
MMI Those are your rules. A... 06-26-2011, 06:03 AM
Thorne Yeah, that's why they're... 06-26-2011, 07:08 AM
denuseri I think the problem here is... 06-26-2011, 03:47 PM
MMI Ok - I'll try to offer... 06-26-2011, 06:21 PM
Thorne Actually, I have two young... 06-26-2011, 08:15 PM
denuseri What did I tell ya...the... 06-26-2011, 09:37 PM
Thorne I've given plenty of... 06-27-2011, 07:32 AM
denuseri So as perviously stated...you... 06-27-2011, 10:22 AM
Thorne According to science! And you... 06-27-2011, 01:12 PM
denuseri And yet again more insults. ... 06-27-2011, 08:28 PM
Thorne Well, denuseri, as usual we... 06-27-2011, 10:27 PM
denuseri I dont have to provide... 06-28-2011, 11:08 AM
Thorne Yeah, for now... 06-28-2011, 01:18 PM
denuseri Sorry I dont personally give... 06-28-2011, 09:29 PM
Thorne From what I've seen you don't... 06-29-2011, 06:55 AM
denuseri Oh I am well versed in... 06-29-2011, 10:15 AM
Thorne You are absolutely right. But... 06-29-2011, 11:27 AM
Thorne You are aware, I'm sure, that... 06-29-2011, 02:08 PM
Thorne I want to speak to the idea... 06-29-2011, 03:09 PM
denuseri I think your still trying to... 06-30-2011, 12:10 AM
Thorne No, I'm not. I've... 06-30-2011, 07:12 AM
denuseri Which explains a lot imho as... 06-30-2011, 12:29 PM
Thorne That doesn't make them a... 06-30-2011, 01:48 PM
Thorne denuseri, just ran across... 06-30-2011, 08:31 AM
Thorne Another quote I ran across... 06-30-2011, 11:15 AM
MMI Sorry to drag this thread... 07-01-2011, 05:14 PM
Thorne This kind of question is far... 07-01-2011, 09:42 PM
denuseri A sidebar on the origens of... 07-02-2011, 12:46 AM
MMI Call me when the work is done... 07-02-2011, 04:57 PM
Thorne We search for more so that we... 07-02-2011, 09:04 PM
denuseri Oh he wont like the idea of... 07-02-2011, 12:21 AM
Thorne Oh, I have no problems with... 07-02-2011, 01:00 AM
denuseri Only your trying to blame the... 07-02-2011, 08:05 AM
Thorne I agree that geocentrism did... 07-02-2011, 09:17 AM
denuseri Making it a completely... 07-02-2011, 09:43 AM
Thorne Here's a site which discusses... 07-02-2011, 11:24 AM
denuseri lmfao...Vandalism?... 07-02-2011, 03:12 PM
MMI It was my understanding that... 07-02-2011, 05:15 PM
Thorne To my knowledge you are... 07-02-2011, 07:52 PM
denuseri Actually there is no clear... 07-02-2011, 08:21 PM
denuseri Too late Thorne look up a... 07-02-2011, 09:25 PM
Thorne Yeah, I got that. I'm a... 07-02-2011, 09:49 PM
Thorne So denuseri, are you claiming... 07-02-2011, 09:43 PM
Switch_John Since this appears to be a... 07-03-2011, 03:22 PM
MMI SJ - are you saying God... 07-03-2011, 03:40 PM
Switch_John Haha, I believe that God does... 07-03-2011, 04:03 PM
Switch_John You bring up a very valid... 07-03-2011, 05:09 PM
Thorne John, welcome. Nice to have a... 07-03-2011, 08:36 PM
MMI I think I've said all I... 07-04-2011, 05:09 PM
MMI OK, I know I said I'd shut... 07-06-2011, 05:07 PM
Thorne I'd heard of this, and find... 07-06-2011, 07:57 PM
  1. #1
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    well to be clear about god...
    there is only one god & Mohammad & Jesus Christ & Moses & David & Solomon & Ibrahim & Isaac & Ismail & Noah & Adam ...
    And all The Prophet : (Prayers and peace be upon them is god Messengers)
    And there Religion its god Religion its only one Religion and it the same Religion & it was getting updated every time god send a prophet & its Islam mean "Islam is derived from the Arabic root "Salema": peace, purity, submission and obedience. In the religious sense, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law"
    And it was getting updated every time god send a prophet Because of the changes & Evolution
    that was happening in human being life’s or every time the human being Stap away from god or from his
    True Religion

    You keep saying … which god I will Worship & which one it’s the real god
    Guess what … “ it’s the Reason of your existence “ you are here to find the way to your Creator between all those Claims it’s the truth god using your Mind and Awareness and when you find your god you Finish your life Worshiping your god

    “So as not to bother yourself looking for god let’s just stop believing on god it’s easier …
    Last edited by domaster; 05-27-2011 at 10:54 AM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by domaster View Post
    well to be clear about god...
    For anyone who's interested, I responded to this here, in domaster's thread. I don't think I need to copy it over here as well.
    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche

  3. #3
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    I've just read this article, written by Maryam Namazie, a rights activist and ex-Muslim. While her talk was primarily about Islam, it can be just as easily applied to any fundamentalist, dogmatic religion. It's well worth the read, believe me.

    She equates modern Islam with the Catholic Inquisition of the Middle Ages. Among other things, she says that, "A ‘personal’ religion is impossible under an inquisition. You can’t pick and choose as you’d like.", and "One of the characteristics of an inquisition is a total ban on freethinking and policing of thought." According to Ms. Namazie, modern Islam is another Inquisition.

    Of particular note is this: "The distinction between humans and their beliefs and regressive political movements is of crucial significance here.
    It is the human being who is meant to be equal not his or her beliefs. It is the human being who is worthy of the highest respect and rights not his or her beliefs or those imputed on them.
    It is the human being who is sacred not beliefs or religion.
    The problem is that religion sees things the other way around.
    And this is the main reason why religion must be relegated to being a private matter."

    While her primary point involves stopping the current spread of Islamic fundamentalism in Britain, many of her points could just as easily apply to the current surge of fundamentalist Christianity occurring in the US. When we allow religions to force their laws into the laws of nations, we force all people, regardless of their beliefs, to submit to that one religion. Allowing the teaching of religious doctrine in science classes turns those classes into pulpits, spoon-feeding dogma to our children rather than teaching them to think.

    Please, read Ms. Namazie's article, and think about what she is saying. She is far more eloquent than I am, and far more knowledgeable about the evils of dogmatic, fundamentalist religions. She is on the front lines of the battle to save humanity from it's gods.
    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post

    Please, read Ms. Namazie's article, and think about what she is saying. She is far more eloquent than I am, and far more knowledgeable about the evils of dogmatic, fundamentalist religions. She is on the front lines of the battle to save humanity from it's gods.
    She certainly knows her own mind, that one, and is not shy of saying what's on it. I salute her for that.

    I read her as being against religion period. Banning of all religious symbols in jewellery or clothing, no religious schools etc.

    I fear such a policy will backfire. I totally agree that religion is and should be a private matter, and that religious fundamentalists should be stopped as all other fundamentalists, have no impact in law, or schools, and that any attempt at violence should be handled by the police as any other violence. Democracy is our lifestyle, and that is and should mean freedom under responsibility and influence on your own life. You cannot have that if others try to set the rules outside of the elected law-makers.

    But starting to dictate how others should dress is impacting on their democratic rights. Exceptions are special jobs, where you have to dress neutral and where your face must be seen.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by thir View Post
    But starting to dictate how others should dress is impacting on their democratic rights. Exceptions are special jobs, where you have to dress neutral and where your face must be seen.
    I agree with you to a point, but where does one draw the line between those who truly want to dress a certain way and those who are forced to by their religious leaders? Especially in Islam, but in other religions as well, women especially are required to dress to satisfy some arbitrary religious tenet, and trying to go against those tenets can get women seriously injured, even killed. Generally by their own husbands, or even sons!

    I think her primary point, as is mine, is that any religion which FORCES its followers to remain true to the faith under penalty of death is nothing more than a cult. Banning of Sharia law in England, for example, would give those who want to leave the faith the opportunity to do so, with less fear of retaliation. It's important that all religious organizations, and those who run them (priests, imams, rabbis, etc.) should be held accountable to the secular law first, and then to their religious laws where applicable. Allowing them to escape from secular punishment because of religious beliefs is stupid and dangerous.

    I also agree with her statement that religious organizations should be treated like any other business and be subject to standard tax laws of all countries. Allow them to take deductions for any charitable work they perform or donate to, but they don't deserve to be treated any differently than any other business.
    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
    I agree with you to a point, but where does one draw the line between those who truly want to dress a certain way and those who are forced to by their religious leaders?
    I wish I knew. But I imagine that if a society becomes more equal (women can earn their own money) and less religious, the pressure on people from their religious backgruond will become less. Maybe that is the only way for that problem.

    Especially in Islam, but in other religions as well, women especially are required to dress to satisfy some arbitrary religious tenet, and trying to go against those tenets can get women seriously injured, even killed. Generally by their own husbands, or even sons!
    That is in fundamentalistic societies, and they are rebelling - thank all the gods large and small whether here or not and good for them! I salute their courage.

    I think her primary point, as is mine, is that any religion which FORCES its followers to remain true to the faith under penalty of death is nothing more than a cult.
    Whatever expression, it has no place in a democracatic society.

    Banning of Sharia law in England, for example, would give those who want to leave the faith the opportunity to do so, with less fear of retaliation.
    I don't understand. What Sharia law? Surely it is the secular law here?

    It's important that all religious organizations, and those who run them (priests, imams, rabbis, etc.) should be held accountable to the secular law first, and then to their religious laws where applicable.
    You lost me again. All are accountable to the laws, (theoretically anyway) right? As for religious laws, that would be a matter between the members of those congregations. But if they harass or threathen their members they answer to the secular law. At least here, where threats are not considered fredoom of speech.

    Allowing them to escape from secular punishment because of religious beliefs is stupid and dangerous.
    Who are doing that? Are you thinking of a specific case?

    [quote
    I also agree with her statement that religious organizations should be treated like any other business and be subject to standard tax laws of all countries.
    [/quote]

    Well, yes, obviously, if they have income.

    Allow them to take deductions for any charitable work they perform or donate to, but they don't deserve to be treated any differently than any other business.
    True. The medieval church was tax-free, and it was a terrible rival to other buisnesses.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by thir View Post
    I don't understand. What Sharia law? Surely it is the secular law here?

    You lost me again. All are accountable to the laws, (theoretically anyway) right? As for religious laws, that would be a matter between the members of those congregations. But if they harass or threathen their members they answer to the secular law. At least here, where threats are not considered fredoom of speech.
    Apparently the Muslim community in England is running a campaign to make Sharia law the primary law for Muslims in England. They would be held accountable only to the Sharia court, and not the British court. Basically, two separate, and unequal, legal systems. I know there is opposition, but I believe there is some support for making Muslims subject to BOTH sets of laws. This would allow the Sharia courts to prevent Muslims from leaving the faith, for example.

    True. The medieval church was tax-free, and it was a terrible rival to other buisnesses.
    In the US, at least, all religious organizations are tax-free. Even those businesses and properties they own which are not strictly connected to religious activity are still exempt from taxation.
    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche

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