Religion or Atheism? An open forum.

[Thorne]

An atheist: is one who believes that there is no deity or takes a position that a deity (or deities) does not exist.

Note that second part, denuseri. There are two possibilities here, not just one. There are atheists who proclaim the first definition, they believe there are no gods. But I have repeatedly stated that this is NOT my position.

One can say its not a belief all they wish becuase they cant stand the word belief becuase they believe it to be a religious word in and of itself

When speaking of doorbells or puppies or almost anything else, the word belief is relatively innocuous. No one is going to claim you're a "puppiest" because you believe puppies are cute.

However, when you are involved in religious discussions, "belief" automatically assumes a religious connotation. Unfortunately the English language does not have a simple word that implies "belief" based on evidence and trust, especially in religious discussions. Therefore I try to avoid the use of the word, preferring to say that something is my opinion, based on learned trust of the evidence.

To Believe: is to have a firm conviction of somethiing, to hold an opinion on something, to consider something to be true or someone to be honest, to accept the word or evidence of someone or something, to have faith that what one believes is true and right.

And your definition just confirms my statement. The last part of the definition brings the word "faith" into the definition, which is another word fraught with religious overtones in any argument over religion, or atheism.

That they are provable or not has very little to do with the fact that they are still beliefs with varying degrees of faith in said beliefs all the same.

This comment underlines my contentions exactly. Saying "I believe the Earth is flat" does not have the same credence as saying "I believe the Earth is round." There is tremendous evidence for the latter, and none at all for the former. So I am saying that I KNOW the Earth is round, and you are claiming that this is a belief system.

If you Thorne can acept these above facts conserning the english languange then we can perhaps procced to have an actual logical conversation conserning this topic in so far as our respected beliefs and our faith in them may apply.

I can accept the definitions as you have described them, but that does not mean that every part of those definitions applies to everyone who "believes" something. So if you are willing to concede that the words "belief" and "believe" used in these discussions does NOT necessarily imply a religious-like, or faith-like, system then yes, I can go along with that. I "believe" that all religions are fiction, based on the lack of any evidence for the existence of the gods those religions worship. Show me good and proper evidence and I will renounce my belief and admit that yes, there just might be gods after all.

What would it take for you to renounce YOUR beliefs?

Hopefully without resorting to calling one side or the other full of doo hickie, or being purposfully insulting (which btw calling anyone who believes in god an idiot by defualt or associating their belief with that of fairy tales and spagetti monsters is in fact very deliberatly "insulting" I might add.)

I do try not to call anyone an idiot just because of their beliefs. But if someone says something idiotic, I will call them on it.

As for fairy tales, Dictionary.com says:
fairy tale
–noun
1. a story, usually for children, about elves, hobgoblins, dragons, fairies, or other magical creatures.
2. an incredible or misleading statement, account, or belief: His story of being a millionaire is just a fairy tale.
(Emphasis mine)

So if someone has incredible beliefs, they would qualify as a fairy tale. And by MY definition, belief without evidence is not credible! The above mentioned story of being a millionaire is NOT a fairy tale if he can show you his bank statements.

[denuseri]

Note that second part, denuseri. There are two possibilities here, not just one. There are atheists who proclaim the first definition, they believe there are no gods. But I have repeatedly stated that this is NOT my position.

Both are still beliefs all the same.


When speaking of doorbells or puppies or almost anything else, the word belief is relatively innocuous. No one is going to claim you're a "puppiest" because you believe puppies are cute.

We are not talking about puppies though are we.

However, when you are involved in religious discussions, "belief" automatically assumes a religious connotation.

No it doesnt, you just want it too.

Unfortunately the English language does not have a simple word that implies "belief" based on evidence and trust, especially in religious discussions. Therefore I try to avoid the use of the word, preferring to say that something is my opinion, based on learned trust of the evidence.

Same difference.

And your definition just confirms my statement. The last part of the definition brings the word "faith" into the definition, which is another word fraught with religious overtones in any argument over religion, or atheism.

Only becuase your choosing to see it that way. Faith and belief do not nessesarally = ashereance to any religious doctrine.


This comment underlines my contentions exactly. Saying "I believe the Earth is flat" does not have the same credence as saying "I believe the Earth is round." There is tremendous evidence for the latter, and none at all for the former. So I am saying that I KNOW the Earth is round, and you are claiming that this is a belief system.

I didnt say anything about systems. And the analogy your using isnt applicable to a discussion conserning beliefs conserning weather or not there is or is not a god or gods.


I can accept the definitions as you have described them, but that does not mean that every part of those definitions applies to everyone who "believes" something. So if you are willing to concede that the words "belief" and "believe" used in these discussions does NOT necessarily imply a religious-like, or faith-like, system then yes, I can go along with that. Im not the one who keeps insisting that they do. I "believe" that all religions are fiction, based on the lack of any evidence for the existence of the gods those religions worship. Show me good and proper evidence and I will renounce my belief and admit that yes, there just might be gods after all.

Show me good and proper evidence that there are no gods or a god and perhaps I will renounce my own beliefs conserning this topic. See the catch 22 yet?


I do try not to call anyone an idiot just because of their beliefs. Really...you could have fooled me, you know exactly how insulting your being when you do it, its been pointed out to you numerous times and yet you keep on.

But if someone says something idiotic, I will call them on it.

And when someone is useing sophistry and hypocricy in their arguments I will do the same.

As for fairy tales, Dictionary.com says:
fairy tale
–noun
1. a story, usually for children, about elves, hobgoblins, dragons, fairies, or other magical creatures.
2. an incredible or misleading statement, account, or belief: His story of being a millionaire is just a fairy tale.
(Emphasis mine)

So if someone has incredible beliefs, they would qualify as a fairy tale. And by MY definition, belief without evidence is not credible! The above mentioned story of being a millionaire is NOT a fairy tale if he can show you his bank statements.

So your willing to conclude that atheism is just as much a fairy tale? Just as lacking in credibility? Since there is no good and proper evidence, no bank statements per say to prove it correct? I mean by your own difinition belief without evidence is not credible.

You will note no where in the definition of a fairy tale does the word religion come into play. Still wonder why making analogies of that kind are insulting?

[Thorne]

Both are still beliefs all the same.

And here is where we seem to disagree. They are NOT both beliefs. Just like KNOWING that the Earth is round is not a belief. Just like KNOWING that the planets revolve around the Sun is not a belief.

Faith and belief do not nessesarally = ashereance to any religious doctrine.

I didn't say anything about religious doctrine, only religious overtones.

Show me good and proper evidence that there are no gods or a god and perhaps I will renounce my own beliefs conserning this topic. See the catch 22 yet?

The only evidence is negative, a lack of evidence. EVERY action or event ever attributed to a god has been shown to have a natural explanation: lightning, earthquakes, volcanoes, floods, disease. All of these, and so much more, were once claimed to be judgements from gods. And every time they were shown to be natural events, theists retreated to some other event of as-yet-unknown cause. Even so-called demonic possessions have been shown to be mental illnesses, made worse by theistic treatments of shunning and prayer rather than medicine. NO explanations/excuses for gods have ever been shown to have any basis in fact. But you will just retreat into "supernatural", "beyond science", "unable to be understood by human minds" excuses. People nowadays tend to forget that at one time the gods were quite personal, having almost daily interactions with their disciples, causing all kinds of miraculous events for all to see. Where are those gods now?

So your willing to conclude that atheism is just as much a fairy tale?

Here again, you are implying that atheism is something more than a simple statement of non-belief. There are no stories of magical creations, no walking on water, no miracles. Just four simple words: "I do not believe." That's it.

You will note no where in the definition of a fairy tale does the word religion come into play.

No, but the word "belief" does! Can you define a religion WITHOUT belief? A religion is just a codification of beliefs, an organizing of people with common beliefs into a community.

Still wonder why making analogies of that kind are insulting?

No, I know why it's insulting. Whenever you poke fun at someone's beliefs they tend to get a bit touchy. Especially when they have nothing to support those beliefs other than "it feels good to me."

So let me ask you this. Assuming that you don't accept the ancient Roman, Greek and Egyptian religions as being true (or perhaps, even if you do), can you honestly claim that the stories of those ancient gods and goddesses are anything more than myths and fairy tales? And if not, how are your own beliefs any different?