Religion or Atheism? An open forum.

[denuseri]

Really? That's the extent of your argument? Okay, then. For as far back as records go, there have been non-believers. Usually they were the more educated, or the priests themselves. But they have always been there. And when discovered they were usually persecuted.

Really? Where is your "evidence" of such? Of all these ancient atheists that is?


Sorry, I must be dense. I just can't wrap my head around the concept that NOT believing in something is just a different way of believing in something.

Well if thats what you wish to leave it at thats fine by me. lol


Nope. Not at all. I only have a problem when they try to tell me that their idea is absolutely true when they have no evidence for it whatsoever.

How ironic...thats just what the atheists are doing with their own ideas.

LOL! No? Look up the story of gay marriage, especially in California. The Mormon church pumped millions of dollars into the campaign to fight that. Since when did denying people basic rights NOT become evil?

Since when did preserving the traditional rites of marriage become evil? Your really grasping at straws here you know.


No. I have zero respect for those who BLINDLY follow a charlatan because it makes them feel good, or because that's who their parents worshiped. If someone has studied, and researched, and come to a belief despite the lack of evidence, I don't have a problem. I can respect them for their honesty. I don't have to respect their beliefs.

You do realize that sounds like your automatically assuming as a defualt setting that everyone is having the wool pulled over their eyes until proven otherwise in your personal estimation.

Which sounds like your being exactly like all those zealous people of different faiths who think that any non-believers in their paticular belief system must need their help to be brought into the light.


Yes, I'm aware of that.

Realy seems like you forgot altogether your own participation in said thread on the topic.

I have no problem with that.

Then why be so insulting when you attacked it?

But this is a perfect example of the kinds of things I'm talking about. You are, I'm sure, aware that this "philosophy" is based on a series of stories. Fictional stories. Very recent ones.

You apparently are not aware of any of the facts surrounding the authorship of the books or that the fictional stories were used dileberately by the author as the only way of expressing and shareing his philosophy with others, which was a direct result of his philosophical ideas being shoved out of academia by the pro-feminist zealots who had taken over his field at the time and refused to allow any agenda but theirs to prevail in the area. A classic example of how scientists act just like sophistic theocrats when it suits them.

Now, project this philosophy into the future, say 2000 years, when the very beginnings of it are hidden or lost. Can't you see how this could become a religion?

You mean all those philosophies invented by the ancient greeks over 2400 years ago are now majically religious?

And doesn't that give you at least some insight into how other religions can be formed based on absolute fiction?

Your again working under the assumption that all religion is derived by an individual hood winking a group of people with nothing more that baseless assumption. When not only the recorded history of such things but all contemporary scientific schools of thought on the study of physcology, theocracy and anthropology (the only evidence we have of said origens conserning any given faiths beginings) in fact directly countridicts your assumption.

Yeah, you struck a nerve. Just like someone repeating the same phrase, over and over. "Evil atheist state", "not believing is believing". "Religion isn't evil, it's the people who abuse it who are evil." The same things over and over. Like chalk screeching on a blackboard. << another example of what Im talking about...things like that dont do you any credit in your arguments.

I only kept repeating the primary idea becuase you kept trying to use sophistry to ignore it.

That idea being: " its people..not "ideas" that do harm"

That trying to blame "religion" for all the worlds ills...is a silly as blaming "science" or "Santa Cluas" or in a more mechanical sence...blaming the gun or the bullet as opposed to who pulls the trigger.


The problem is that the religious don't really WANT a secular state, they want a theocratic one.

Really? So I must then want a non-secular state huh? I mean I am a religious follower after all.?

The reality is however: just becuse one has a religion that they wish to follow it does not automatically mean their agenda is world domination or even anything remotely like it.



I will however grant you that there are some people out there who may have had dreams of making their own religion or philosophy or governmental or economic ideals the only one's practiced in the world. (atheist are in that little group too, more than once)

But I also think that those people's dreams have very little actual chance of reaching futition.


Those individuals and those who share their ideas have failed so far every time they attempted such a thing (both the theists and atheist variety -though the theists ussually had more success in such endeavors until modern times ...I atribute that to being better educated and in general more organized, but actual history will show you it was the theists that were inclussive of other peoples faiths who had the highest level of success overall ) at least in taking over the world or a paticular area of it and holding dominion over it...and I dont see them making much headway in the modern world on even a local level.

The only logical conclussion then must be secularism for all.

Freedom of speech, as long as you don't say anything blasphemous about THEIR religion. Freedom of expression, as long as you don't express discontent with THEIR religion. Freedom of worship, as long as you only worship THEIR religion. THAT is what I see happening in this country! THAT is what I'm fighting against!

By insulting anyone who doesnt believe as you do? By using the same things you accuse them off yourself?

Think I'm wrong? Try walking into a school board meeting, or a town council meeting, where they open each session with a prayer. Try asking them to open that session with a Bahai prayer, or an Islamic prayer, or a Jewish prayer. See just how "tolerant" they are. I would especially recommend trying this in the deep south or the midwest. I think you'd get a real eye-opening experience.

Actually...unless as in the case of my niece who attended a private lutheran school, when any local town meetings or school related things conviened where I have been in attendence...I havent seen too many people wanting a prayer to begin with...secondly..when they do its allmost allways a silent moment where each is allowed to pray in their heads to whoever they wish.

Which shouldnt bother the atheists since they shouldnt care eaither way if their being logical about things and truely accepting that other people are indeed entitled to hold their own beliefs.

And truth be told as a Bahai...or as a member of any of the other religious faiths I held before it, even during the period where I was breifly atheist myself...it still didnt bother me...even when it was one faiths prayer and out loud. Why should I care if the people in a paticular gathering decide they all wish to have a prayer or some such ritual preformed. Its not hurting me or anyone else.

In those cases of when Ive been in areas where one faith predominated over the others (such as when I was in living in the middle east, or in my local community here -which for your information is in the deepest of the deep southern usa bible belt) I would adapt as nessesary to the cultural requirments of the people in the paticular area I was staying in. They live the way they wish..its not my place to try and force them to do otherwise. "When in Rome" as the old saying goes I have found to be excellent advice to live by.