Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
From Wikipedia:
"The spontaneous proposition that there may be no gods after all is logically as old as theism itself (and the proposition that there may be no God as old as the beginnings of monotheism or henotheism)."

I guess you forgot the part about when the term Atheist took on its current meaning; from the same article in Wiki...."The first individuals to identify themselves as "atheist" appeared in the 18th century.

The term wasnt used in the same context back in 500bc...other than to refer to impiety.

The theists had been around for 4000 years before that according to written history...with zero evidence of any Atheists.

When did the tradition of keeping slaves become evil?

For the most part historically speaking the idea that slavery was somehow evil didnt develope until the abolistionist movment (a highly religiously driven movement I might add) came to become socially acceptable amongst the populace in the 1700's.

When did the idea of polytheism become evil?

Become evil to whom? Different societies viewed it as unnessesary or wrong at differing times in history and some have since reversed their positions on the topic.

When did polygamy become evil?

Im not so sure polygamy has ever been viewed as "evil" per say at least not outside of some small minded groups in general.

Even the "rite" of marriage is very different throughout the world, lol...seriously? Its actually one of those things thats allmost a commonality between allmost all people on the planet outside of a few small and isolated cultures.

and has changed drastically throughout history.

Not really all that much at all...not until modern times that is.

The only reasons not to allow gay couples the same legal rights as heterosexual couples, whether you want to call it marriage or not, are religious.

What a narrow minded opinion to hold. I can see all sorts of reasons why a society wouldnt want to promote this kind of thing that have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with cultural preservation (though its my personal opinion that it should be allowed here in the USA...I even started a thread on it outlining my personal position in detail if youd like the link)

All I was saying is that it wasnt "evil" in and of itself for people to wish to have an opinion about it and or express that opinion in our democracy.

Well, when people are willing to accept a supernatural being as their overlord, are willing to drop to their knees in terror of offending this being, in hopes of a promised reward which no one has ever seen, then yeah, in my estimation they are being duped.

No more duped than they are when they accept the word of some other guy with equally lacking evidence that there is no god for them to do all this kneeling too?

More or less. Most of the religious dogma which exist today are based on very early myths from all over the Middle East, including the virgin birth, the flood, the resurrection, and many more. Those myths, previously told as stories of other ancient gods, were incorporated into Judaism and from there into Christianity and Islam.

You may wish to read up on some of this in greater detail. Or perhaps your confusing the works of the philosophers with the works of much earlier theologians idk:

The Philosophers didnt even exist until 2400 years ago (roughly 500bce) give or take a couple hundred years...they were mainly Greek...their philosophies btw are today still just that...philosophies...and never turned for even a moment into any religion that I am aware of.

As for the religious mythologies of different cultures in the mesopotamian region...thats a whole different ball of religious wax...not philosophical. It was steeped in religion from its advent to its fall in some cases and to its evolution into further theological thoughts some of which do have trappings held over to modern times...but never lost its theist conotation.


What bothers me is when the theists don't reciprocate that idea.

Really...Im a theist...I brought up secularism and toleration and aceptance in this thread and others where weve discussed this , (long before you I might add) even pleaded with you to at least consider it...and every time until the past couple posts here youve sidesteped or refused to acknowledge or simply tried to re-brand your position and kept on insulting people of faith etc. In fact...90% of the people I know who are religious adherents also believe secularism is preferable to strife over religious ideals and if you look at 99% of the secular movments in the world you will see them being lead by groups of theists from different faiths as well.


Sorry, but I have to believe it hurts everyone who doesn't hold the same faith as the praying group. Especially children, who will emulate their parents and grow up believing just what the parent want them to believe, without learning to think about such things for themselves.

So now you would have children not be raised by their parents? Who then shall raise them...the state? Gee that sounds awfully familiar for some reason...hummm...ohh thats right the "communists in south east asia promoted that ideal".

Want to see how "tolerant" religious people are? Suggest that instead of sending their kids to Sunday School they send them to study comparative religions and religious history. I doubt you'd get many takers.

Actually growing up as a Lutheran...we studdied all sorts of religions other than our own and were activly encouraged to study religious history.

I find that it only encourages people to believe that they must be right. Sometimes you need to show them another way.

So basically you wish to replace everyone elses beliefs...with your own?

Obviously you have done a lot of searching to establish your particular philosophy. I admire you for that. I still think you're wrong, but that's your right. My arguments aren't aimed so much at you as at those who may be on the fence about religion, leaning one way or the other, not believing but not sure what to do about it. Sometimes just knowing there is someone out there who thinks along the same lines as yourself can be a big help. Religion is so endemic to our society that it is very unusual for someone to grow up without being immersed in some form of religious ideology from birth. That's changing, though. Hopefully it will keep changing.
I see no reason that any kind of evolutionary movement away from God should be looked upon as a good thing...though from everything Ive seen on this subject..people having faith in something other than atheism doesnt change so much as adherence to organzed religious efforts declines in cerrtian urbanized conditions of prosperity where individualism is promoted over obligation to the group.

As for respect...well I would certiantly respect you more if, you practiced what you preached...

...instead of acting with the same self rightious attitude of the very people you wish to declaim for their faith in their own ways of thought as being automatically wrong, deluded, or in need of repair or not as valid as your own for them ...especially since you have zero evidence to point to something different as an alternative.

If you really believe in secularism...than practice it... instead of preaching atheism over all others.