Is BDSM a religion?

[Flaming_Redhead]

I have never run across the document you're referring to, but I would think that whoever wrote it was praying to whichever god she/he worships in regards to whatever religion she/he follows. It could easily be God of Christianity or a pagan god or goddess. It still doesn't make BDSM a religion.

There are some parts of Christianity that are pretty scary if you think about it and sound a lot like D/s. A wife is commanded to submit to her husband in all things. Women are not to speak out in church and risk embarrassing their husbands with their ignorance but are told to wait and ask their husbands. It is suggested that we should go into a dark closet to pray.

The slave versus sub debate is a whole other topic that you'd probably find plenty of answers to if you use the "search" function.

[Veronika]

There are some parts of Christianity that are pretty scary if you think about it and sound a lot like D/s. A wife is commanded to submit to her husband in all things.

Yes but the husband and wife are submitting to Christ so it's not like the husband is allowed to do wrong things. So if the husband is breaking against God wife doesn't have to obey him.

22 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord."
28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, people have never hated their own bodies, but they feed and care for them, just as Christ does the church
-Ephesians 5:22, 5:28-29

[Flaming_Redhead]

Yes but the husband and wife are submitting to Christ so it's not like the husband is allowed to do wrong things. So if the husband is breaking against God wife doesn't have to obey him.

22 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord."
28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, people have never hated their own bodies, but they feed and care for them, just as Christ does the church
-Ephesians 5:22, 5:28-29

That would be in a perfect world. I don't understand why you think the husband isn't "allowed" to do wrong things or why the wife doesn't have to obey him. *smiles* In the case of marriage to an unbeliever, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him. If the unbeliever leaves, THEN are they not bound.

I'm also not sure what your definition of "wrong things" is. Sex isn't wrong. Husbands and wives are to share their bodies with each other. Their bodies are not their own. It is their marital duty to please the other. It doesn't say how exactly....as much as the church would like us to believe that it's the missionary position.

[Veronika]

I'm also not sure what your definition of "wrong things" is.

Anything against the word of Bible. Of course sex is not wrong who said that?

[efwb2]

Religion is a faith, e.g. beliving in somthing blindly. A sub that has never met a master a meets them has faith that they will not hurt them. This does not make it a Religion becuse the trust and faith is earned and not blind faith.

[SubmissiveDoll]

I think the quote you are going for ...

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord, 23 for the husband is head of the wife as also Christ is head of the church. He is the Savior of the body. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as also Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 to make her holy, cleansing her in the washing of water by the word. (Ephesians 5:22-26)

Unless you wanted it to be paraphrased like you had it. Admittedly, it does sound a whole lot different the way you have it. I personally prefer quoting the bible the way it's written though.

I'd mention the slave's prayer, but I think they had that one covered.

Yes but the husband and wife are submitting to Christ so it's not like the husband is allowed to do wrong things. So if the husband is breaking against God wife doesn't have to obey him.

22 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord."
28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, people have never hated their own bodies, but they feed and care for them, just as Christ does the church
-Ephesians 5:22, 5:28-29

[denuseri]

I have seen the slaves prayer and it is a prayer to God, not to the dominant. Though it does ask God's blessing to give the submissive the ability to please her dominant. It is also a very bueatiful sentiment.

Here is a copy of it:

A Slave’s Prayer

From my knees, I ask with all of my heart…
Grant me the strength to submit to Him
Without fear or doubt - only with love in my heart
Grant me the ability to make His will my own
Even when I cannot understand the reasons
Grant me the wisdom to know silence and
To always speak with humility and respect
Grant me serenity in my service to Him
That my joy may become His
Grant me the ability to bring Him
Comfort and pleasure in His use of my body
Grant me the grace to accept punishment
In a manner befitting of the woman He owns
That I reflect well on Him in every moment
Allow me to accept Him as He has become
To change what I am to what He desires
Without losing the girl that He chose to make His
Grant me the ability to inspire Him and
To bring light to guide our way on this journey
But more than anything else, I ask
Grant me my greatest desire
To make His life complete
As He makes mine

[Pearlgem]

Reading over your questions and comments, V, it's clear there are many things you have still to learn about BDSM. It's perfectly all right not to know - everyone was new once and plenty of newbies are joining here all the time to learn and grow. If it is your wish to genuinely learn about this lifestyle for whatever reasons, personal or otherwise, you'll find no finer place. You'd get on better if you showed a little courtesy to those members who take the time to respond to you with knowledge and intelligence. You'd do that anywhere, wouldn't you? People on here value the sense of genuine community they engender. You'd be most welcome if this is what you too are honestly seeking.

If, however, you wish only to be emptily provocative and argue purely for the sake of it, that is your choice too. You can see how such antagonism might not help you learn or make your points convincingly, I'm sure. But I repeat, if you wish to learn and be part of a very real and valued community, you'd find yourself most welcome.

Take care x x

[Veronika]

But I repeat, if you wish to learn and be part of a very real and valued community, you'd find yourself most welcome.

In other words, I'm not allowed to think differently in here at all? To me that is narrowminded. And questioning some things to have a interesting conversation is not arguing in my opinion. Is it in yours?

[Pearlgem]

In other words, I'm not allowed to think differently in here at all? To me that is narrowminded. And questioning some things to have a interesting conversation is not arguing in my opinion. Is it in yours?

Are you interested in discussing topics or do you just want to argue about arguing? Think differently by all means but why not be courteous of others' views too. Questioning is encouraged, arguing is fine but try to keep on topic. You tend to get rather personal and come across as unecessarily aggressive. I'm sure you don't mean to. Read other threads here and see how good arguments remain on topic and avoid being personally disparaging.

Take care x x

[Veronika]

You tend to get rather personal and come across as unecessarily aggressive.

Lol, sure turn everything upside down.

[Veronika]

Okay so now after 15 posts I'm allowed to post that article I was talking about: http://www.mn-mistress.net/spiritualquest.htm

[sinderella]

Veronika, what are you doing here? are you really seeking information or just trying to make people justify themselves to you?

as far as this way of life being compared to a religion, you are confusing the spiritual aspects of it with religious ones. a religion is a belief system centered around a supernatural entity. where do you see that here?

a cult is the same thing as a religion, except it is outside of the 'normal' mainstream religions.

just because there are protocols and practices, objects or clothing that are unique to this way of life doesn't make it a cult. being concerned for your partner's safety, pleasure, enjoyment, and well-being requires caution and a set of rules, defining limitations, etc.

and just because one can experience a true spiritual communion with their partner, or an altered state of consciousness, even, doesn't make it a religion - vanilla people can experience the same thing when making love to their partners, although it is much more prevalent and profound in this world.

and yes, seeing it referred to as a 'cult' personally offends me.

[Veronika]

and yes, seeing it referred to as a 'cult' personally offends me.

I didn't bring that word up.

[sinderella]

I didn't bring that word up.

i know. i was just adding that to my final thought. i should have clarified that better.

I wanted to start discussion about this issue. I wanted to give out my opinion. You can agree or not to. I'm not going to apologize that I think differently and I tend to keep my own mind as long as I see fit. I'm not easily brainwashed ya know. And Fetishdj and Rachel06 made good points when they said if some thread offends you - then don't read it, simple as that.

Take care all...

well...of course people are going to read it... i don't think people want you to 'apologize' for having a different viewpoint. i do think that your manner is somewhat off-putting, i have to say...

[Veronika]

i do think that your manner is somewhat off-putting, i have to say...

Maybe so but my first post in this thread got strong emotional responses which were almost rude.

[Veronika]

I wanted to start discussion about this issue. I wanted to give out my opinion. You can agree or not to. I'm not going to apologize that I think differently and I tend to keep my own mind as long as I see fit. I'm not easily brainwashed ya know. And Fetishdj and Rachel06 made good points when they said if some thread offends you - then don't read it, simple as that.

Take care all...

[fetishdj]

Hmmm.... certainly a rather interesting debate here...

If we take a moment to step back and consider this from an intellectual viewpoint rather than an emotional one, I find this a fascinating discussion. From what I can gather from a quick skim read, we have two main arguments:

1) That the elements of BDSM which refer to 'worship' of an individual such as a Master or Mistress compounded with the elements of ecstatic ritual incorporated into the practises (sub and domspace) which are similar to those seen in some shamanic rituals (especially those that involve pain to create a trance state) could be evidence to compare BDSM a religion.

2) The opposing view that the essential lack of a central belief in a spiritual entity combined with several other factors which essentially come down to the 'BDSM is just like golf' argument which claim it essentially is not... Within this may well be the 'calling anything else a religion other than 'my' religion is heresy' argument though that could be a third one and one which is too primed with contention to possibly be safe...

So, is anyone prepared to debate these sensibly and with constructive argument? Would it be better to move this to the religion and philosophy thread?

[Veronika]

Hmmm.... certainly a rather interesting debate here...

I'm glad you think so too!

[Pearlgem]

I think it would be definitely better to move the thread to Religion and Philosophy. I would have a different feel and response to it I think than here under general BDSM talk.

*click* somebody make it so!

[sinderella]

I think it would be definitely better to move the thread to Religion and Philosophy. I would have a different feel and response to it I think than here under general BDSM talk.

*click* somebody make it so!

"Make it so, Number One."

Wheee...

[thepast]

A MESSAGE FROM YOUR FRIENDLY ADMIN:


This thread has been moved to RELIGION & PHILOSOPHY for some obvious reasons-- a.) deals with religion (see 10 posts above in thread); b.) the religion & philosophy area allows a LITTLE more leeway in posting. Note the phrase: A LITTLE MORE-- that does NOT mean leaps & bounds more.

What you post is your OPINION. If you are offended by the thread or the topic, you may say "I find the TOPIC offensive" not "x, you are offensive." I also highly suggest if you DO find it offensive to meander to another thread to post in because you are emotionally connected to the topic & will find it difficult to seperate fact/fiction and fact/opinion.

CONSIDER THIS A WARNING, FOLKS!!! Keep it on topic, keep it pithy, and keep it to a low roar.

[damyanti]

As someone who has a bit of a fetish on intellectual and psychological musings, especially in terms of (all) D/s relationships, I quite enjoyed your opening posts, but your later ones do make me wonder what it is you hope to accomplish...since you seem to have already made up your mind.

So let me state here unequivocally - BDSM is in no way, shape or form a religion!

And it most certainly isnt a cult - in cult people have uniform beliefs, if you bother to read through other threads (BDSM And Feminism; Intelligence and Submission; Washing feet; Old School ; Question about romance ; Safe Words and Safety Concerns ; On Being a Dominant; and many, many more) you will see that we cant agree on anything ...except maybe that its ok that we dont agree on anything and that we all have the right to live our lives in a way that feels right to us...but thats hardly a cult-like mind frame.

Whereever there is a gathering of people there are bound to always be bad people, people who always have to be right, people who get off on brainwashing the less experienced ones, those who use just about anything to excuse abuse........but all these things have nothing to do with BDSM and exist in vanilla world too, maybe even more so....(but even if the opposite were true, I have met so many wonderful and wise people here, and learned so much - even from those not so wise, imho - that that makes it more than worth it and makes me grateful that this site exists).

What you mistake for religious fervor is in fact devotion and intimacy that is born out of sharing your life with someone else....in BDSM the intensity of it is more pronounced because in adition to sharing, you are also placing your life into someone elses hands or someone else is placing their life into yours so communication is mandatory...and often reaches levels that I imagine confuse and scare vanilla people.

I'm strong-minded, indepndent adult, reputedly highly intelligent and not easily brainwashed....I am also determined and know what I want...and it does involve "us against the rest of the world" feeling. I wont settle for less.

This isnt right for everybody...we get that...so I can assure you that we have never had a thread where we discussed our evil plan of turning the rest of the world into one giant dungeon (though numbers in Science on BDSM thread make for an interesting reading)....so please extend us the same courtesy of not implying that there is something sinister, sick or abnormal in a way we choose to conduct our personal relationship. Because by your definition of religion what all the vanilla people who stay in bed on Sunday morning and shout "oh, god" are doing is praying, .

[Veronika]

I quite enjoyed your opening posts, but your later ones do make me wonder what it is you hope to accomplish..

Please read my posts 24 and 39.

so please extend us the same courtesy of not implying that there is something sinister, sick or abnormal in a way we choose to conduct our personal relationship.

I have never said those things, why would you interpret it that way? Are those your own thoughts?

[lucy]

This thread once more showed me how lucky i am to not believe in anything. Life's just so much easier when you're an ignostic atheist

To the original question (which i think is a good one): Nope, BDSM is not a religion, because unlike the only religion i know (catholicism) and most i heard of nobody tries to tell me what is right and wrong, good or bad, allowed or forbidden.
I can walk through the world of BDSM, pick things i like, reject ideas i dislike, mix it all together and form something that perfectly suits my needs.
If i'm really lucky, i can do that with someone else, or more than one, and nobody tells me with whom and how many of them.

Now which religion allows you that many choices?

[Veronika]

the original question (which i think is a good one)

I appreciate that, thanks.

[hopperboo]

NO it is not a religion...imo.

[TwstdKittie]

I feel that if you were going to call it anything even REMOTELY like a religion, I'd liken it more to Buddhism, as in, not a religion but a way of life. It's something that for me, brings inner peace when I understand and embrace that aspect of me, and it brings balance to my life and calms me when I think about my Master and other things. It's just another fulfilling part of my existence, but I'm also not "religious" so I'd say it's definitely more like Buddhism, but not spiritual in the sense of having a deity/deities that are "worshipped" per se.

[Matin]

veronika,
i thought i'd add my thoughts to the mix, if only to throw a wrench in ^.^

no i don't equate what i do sexually with religion. or what i do lifestyle-wise with religion.

but with spirituality, oh boy, you betcha. confusing? for me it is sometimes.

but i believe, very strongly, that sex and the male/female or masculine/feminine dynamic (lol in whatever manner its expressed) are very much muddled in my head and that sex is for me often times a spiritual event.

and heres another fun thing; being pagan by my path i have engaged in sexual acts AS spiritual acts and vise/versa.

this topic has actually made me stretch my mind around the links between sex and spirituality in ways i often havent - like a lot of people i don't think too hard on things i accept and take for granted as part of my world.

but i also think it may be a good idea not to read much into that. most pagan religions as ive read them deal with a very basic tenet of duality in their world view. god and goddess, often in the older ones with the goddess held higher than the god, but more commonly with a general equality. and naturally because we give human characteristics to the world around us - anthropomorphism or "magical thinking" - so the weather, the turn of the seasons, the solstices and fire festivals all become wrapped in a mythos containing a lot of sex.

a lot of masculine/feminine interactions into which one can read sexual content but i wanted to make sure you were still reading. so logically we(pagans, but not all) strive to worship and express our spirituality in ways that reflect the mythos. sex!

the human body is a gift, the world around me as i see it it a great roiling natural sex show, so i dive in and participate to the best of my ability.

i had fun with this, i know y'all are confused. hehehe

i'm so keeping an eye on this thread.

bon soir
-matin

[wind_dancer{W_W}]

For me it is a religion because my Master IS my Lord i pray to Him and love Him more so than any modern day religion ever could love their god He is my God and i love Him more than any other thing in this world