register for atheists?

[thir]

Religion
Atheist "National Registry" Proposed by Florida Pastor Discovered by the Internet a Year Later

"Now, many (especially the atheists), may ask "Why do this, what's the purpose?" Duhhh, Mr. Atheist for the same purpose many States put the names and photos of convicted sex offenders and other ex-felons on the I-Net - to INFORM the public! I mean, in the City of Miramar, Florida, where I live, the population is approx. 109,000. My family and I would sure like to know how many of those 109,000 are ADMITTED atheists! Perhaps we may actually know some. In which case we could begin to witness to them and warn them of the dangers of atheism. Or perhaps they are radical atheists, whose hearts are as hard as Pharaoh's, in that case, if they are business owners, we would encourage all our Christian friends, as well as the various churches and their congregations NOT to patronize them as we would only be "feeding" Satan.

Frankly, I don't see why anyone would oppose this idea - including the atheists themselves (unless of course, they're actually ashamed of their atheist religion, and would prefer to stay in the 'closet.')."

That's the bad news. The good news is, it was booed off the net.


http://blogs.browardpalmbeach.com/pu...istry_prop.php

[Thorne]

They should also make a registry for preachers, pastors, rabbis priests, ministers, imams, etc., etc., etc., which can be posted right NEXT to the sexual predator lists. Just in case, you know?

Idiots.

[thir]

They should also make a registry for preachers, pastors, rabbis priests, ministers, imams, etc., etc., etc., which can be posted right NEXT to the sexual predator lists. Just in case, you know?

Idiots.

Frankly downright odd, and a little scary, except it was taken off again.
I did not grow up with religion, and sometimes I think I will never understand it.

[Thorne]

Frankly downright odd, and a little scary, except it was taken off again.
I did not grow up with religion, and sometimes I think I will never understand it.

VERY scary. At the risk of pulling a Godwin, it's very reminiscent of Kristallnacht and Auschwitz.

And I DID grow up with religion, and I still don't understand it. Or more precisely, I don't understand how people can still fall for it.

[denuseri]

Well frankly I don't see at all how one idiot who claims to have an "online" church making a ludicrous proposal can be taken seriously or is in any way shape or form even close to the persecution of the Jewish people before and during WW2 by Nazi Germany.

[Thorne]

Well frankly I don't see at all how one idiot who claims to have an "online" church making a ludicrous proposal can be taken seriously or is in any way shape or form even close to the persecution of the Jewish people before and during WW2 by Nazi Germany.

Fortunately, in this case, he was NOT taken seriously. But just listen to some of the rhetoric coming out of the Republican far right wing and tell me that such seeds won't eventually find fertile ground. Some very important religious and political people have been making comments which aren't too far removed from this ridiculous proposal, whether about Atheists, or Muslims, Mexicans or climatologists. (Rick Perry, Michele Bachman and Pat Robertson come to mind.)

[lucy]

(Rick Perry, Michele Bachman and Pat Robertson come to mind.)

There you go. First it was just one idiot, now it's already three more...
Anyway, where can I sign up for this register?

[thir]

Fortunately, in this case, he was NOT taken seriously. But just listen to some of the rhetoric coming out of the Republican far right wing and tell me that such seeds won't eventually find fertile ground. Some very important religious and political people have been making comments which aren't too far removed from this ridiculous proposal, whether about Atheists, or Muslims, Mexicans or climatologists. (Rick Perry, Michele Bachman and Pat Robertson come to mind.)

Well, I guess that is why I was a little spooked. In the right (wrong) political climate such things can take off. I don't know, maybe I am paranoid but sometimes it seems that that mentality (in whatever form) is always there, and you always have to guard your freedom. Some day it won't be there if you don't.

[ksst]

It's always good to be a little paranoid. If you think someone is watching you, they probably are. I used to be an atheist, which is a personal story that no one wants to hear (I still belong to no particular religion), and my husband is a lifelong atheist. He was 10 when he announced in Sunday school that he did not believe in God and he was kicked out of the class. Oh, and his dad was the pastor. That went over well.

[Thorne]

I used to be an atheist, which is a personal story that no one wants to hear

I'd love to hear it. Just as a discussion.

(I still belong to no particular religion)

Always a good thing, IMO, regardless of your faith.

[ksst]

Ok, the short version. I was desperate, and I prayed to a God I knew didn't exist, and I felt touched, actually touched in my mind, by God and it was such a real experience in my mind that I couldn't doubt after that. I realize that sometimes God says no, but in my case he/she/it said yes.

You know something weird, a few weeks ago I was listening to Christian radio, preacher hour, or whatever. They have it on a lot around here and sometimes I can't avoid it. There was a lady on and the words she used to describe her relationship with God were extremely sensual, almost sexual, and sounded exactly like how a sub might describe her Master. It was eeiry, like a perverted echo. And kind of cool because of that.

[Thorne]

I have no intention of belittling your experience, but I do have to wonder: Why would you pray to a God you KNEW did not exist? That seems to be a contradiction. And to WHICH god would you pray? Allah? Jehovah? Zeus? Odin? And while I'm sure you experienced something, how do you know it was a god and not just your own subconscious coming to a decision?

As for the radio program, the mainstream religions are generally based upon a God/supplicant relationship which is not unlike the Master/sub relationship. And it seems to me that, since these religions tend to frown upon sensuality and sexuality in the flesh, it would only be natural for some to seek it out in their "spiritual" lives. Personally, I'll take it in the flesh!

[ksst]

I don't know that I have any answers to those questions. That is just what happened and how it seemed to me.

I like my sensuality etc. in the flesh too. Otherwise we would hardly be talking here in this forum, huh?

[Thorne]

I don't know that I have any answers to those questions.

Don't feel bad. I have yet to meet anyone who really does. Most just say that they know it was God just because it felt right. Not exactly evidence. At least you're honest about it.

[Lion]

And to WHICH god would you pray? Allah? Jehovah? Zeus? Odin?

Does god need a name? Regardless of what you call god, most main stream religions believe in the same characteristics of god, love/mercy/etc. Whether or not ksst had an actual image in mind about god, I'm sure she was praying to one that would help/listen to her.

PS: Al-lah means The god. Even Christians in the middle east use the word.



----------


Getting back to the thread, the dude is stupid, and no one should pay him any attention

[Thorne]

Does god need a name? Regardless of what you call god, most main stream religions believe in the same characteristics of god, love/mercy/etc.

And what about the NON-mainstream religions? Don't their visions of gods count? My point was that there are as many different versions of gods as there are names of gods, which each claiming to be the One True God. And adding in all of the pagan gods, both present and past, throws some pretty nasty beings into the mix. Anyone interested in asking for mercy from Baal or Loki?

Getting back to the thread, the dude is stupid, and no one should pay him any attention

Problem is, there are those who WILL pay attention. For every idiot out there, there are bigger idiots willing to believe him. Ignoring them only gives them the anonymity to keep doing evil in the names of their gods. Shining the light of reason and ridicule on them at least helps drive them back into the woodwork.

[Lion]

And what about the NON-mainstream religions? Don't their visions of gods count? My point was that there are as many different versions of gods as there are names of gods, which each claiming to be the One True God. And adding in all of the pagan gods, both present and past, throws some pretty nasty beings into the mix. Anyone interested in asking for mercy from Baal or Loki?

Fair enough question. But when there are 800 million Hindus, between 3-4 billion between Christian and Muslims, that's more then half the planet. I don't know if there are an abundance of people who worship a god who they believe doesn't love them, or have the general characteristics that the three monotheistic religions attribute to god, if there are non mainstream religions that have a god who they know is supposed to hate humans....I doubt they're really popular. So yeah, does god need a name then? Praying to a higher diety, having faith in something that you hope has some control of the universe, that's god.

Problem is, there are those who WILL pay attention. For every idiot out there, there are bigger idiots willing to believe him. Ignoring them only gives them the anonymity to keep doing evil in the names of their gods. Shining the light of reason and ridicule on them at least helps drive them back into the woodwork.

Honestly? I'm more concerned about politicians who decide to use my religion for political mudslinging to win votes. A random pastor at some church with no national or major regional presence is a far cry from shit that's already happening. I think atheists need not worry, lunatics are more concerned about that moozlim (read brown) guy in town and their crazy mosques, and preventing gay rights.

[Thorne]

Fair enough question. But when there are 800 million Hindus, between 3-4 billion between Christian and Muslims, that's more then half the planet.

That only means there are lots of people who believe in gods. Doesn't make those gods any more real.

I don't know if there are an abundance of people who worship a god who they believe doesn't love them

I believe that the vast majority of believers only believe what they are told to believe. They have been frightened into believing that their "loving" god will burn them for eternity if they don't go to church every week and donate their money.

or have the general characteristics that the three monotheistic religions attribute to god

Many of those characteristics they do NOT agree on. Such as the trinity.

if there are non mainstream religions that have a god who they know is supposed to hate humans

Satanism? I don't know how mainstream it is, but it's been around for a long time.

having faith in something that you hope has some control of the universe, that's god.

That's gravity.

Honestly? I'm more concerned about politicians who decide to use my religion for political mudslinging to win votes.

I'm more concerned about those same politicians infecting the government with their religious beliefs, bringing on a Christian (in the US) theocracy.

A random pastor at some church with no national or major regional presence is a far cry from shit that's already happening.

That's how it begins, though. Convert (or pervert, depending on your point of view) young minds who are basically trapped by their parents into believing. Then loose them on the rest of the world when they've grown.

I think atheists need not worry

Spoken like a theist.

lunatics are more concerned about that moozlim (read brown) guy in town and their crazy mosques, and preventing gay rights.

Lunatics are concerned over anyone who is different from themselves. Whether they are Muslim, Hindu, Atheist or Satanist. My concern is the lunatics who have a following, and are getting elected to office. They scare the hell out of me!

[thir]

You know something weird, a few weeks ago I was listening to Christian radio, preacher hour, or whatever. They have it on a lot around here and sometimes I can't avoid it. There was a lady on and the words she used to describe her relationship with God were extremely sensual, almost sexual, and sounded exactly like how a sub might describe her Master. It was eeiry, like a perverted echo. And kind of cool because of that.

People have remarked on this similarity, and I find it most interesting and worth a topic in itself.

[thir]

I have no intention of belittling your experience, but I do have to wonder: Why would you pray to a God you KNEW did not exist? That seems to be a contradiction. And to WHICH god would you pray? Allah? Jehovah? Zeus? Odin? And while I'm sure you experienced something, how do you know it was a god and not just your own subconscious coming to a decision?

Allow me to jump in here, (delayed, sorry) because this is central to a lot of the discussions here and very interesting. How can anyone know anything, really? All we know is the feelings and sensations we have, and IME you can experience things in a very clear way which is not with your logic mind or thinking, and though you cannot explain it in the terms of the 'other' system, it is no less real.

God/supplicant relationship which is not unlike the Master/sub relationship. And it seems to me that, since these religions tend to frown upon sensuality and sexuality in the flesh, it would only be natural for some to seek it out in their "spiritual" lives. Personally, I'll take it in the flesh!

I see your point here. But personally I think that these feelings or spirtual needs or whatever you choose to call them, are not primarily of the flesh, although with us they are usually expressed in the flesh as well as in other ways. But they are not, as I see it, originally of the flesh. I am afraid I find it difficult to make to clear, but, well - the biggest sex organ is the mind - and, as I see it, the spirit.

[thir]

Don't feel bad. I have yet to meet anyone who really does. Most just say that they know it was God just because it felt right. Not exactly evidence. At least you're honest about it.

As I said, realizations can come to one by other means than scientific evidence. Otherwise we wouldn't know enough in our daily lives to even survive.

[thir]

And what about the NON-mainstream religions? Don't their visions of gods count? My point was that there are as many different versions of gods as there are names of gods, which each claiming to be the One True God. And adding in all of the pagan gods, both present and past, throws some pretty nasty beings into the mix. Anyone interested in asking for mercy from Baal or Loki?

Ah - you are taking the old testament Christian view of Baal? ;-) Good old bloody Jehova, I am sure he is more safe.

Problem is, there are those who WILL pay attention. For every idiot out there, there are bigger idiots willing to believe him. Ignoring them only gives them the anonymity to keep doing evil in the names of their gods. Shining the light of reason and ridicule on them at least helps drive them back into the woodwork.

The real big problem here that I see is that people are not stupid - they are scared. And some are just extremely nasty and can drive panics of various kinds, exploiting that fear.

My big beef with religion is the FEAR it inspires in some people, and that fear is the danger. People with no hell or damnation or vengeful gods do not usually bother anyone else. Not on their own initiative, anyway.

[thir]

I don't know if there are an abundance of people who worship a god who they believe doesn't love them, or have the general characteristics that the three monotheistic religions attribute to god, if there are non mainstream religions that have a god who they know is supposed to hate humans....I doubt they're really popular.

I believe it is difficult for us in a world (Western) where life is relatively safe perhaps to understand how anyone can worships a malevalent god, or at least a god or gods that are completely arbitary in what they do. But I have an idea that if your life is depending on stuff that you have No influence over whatsoever, you try to appease or stay of the right side of these powers, be they god or gods, spirits, forces of nature, overlords or whatever. Basically because there is nothing else you Can do.

So yeah, does god need a name then?

Matter of taste, I suppose, and culture. I guess most Western people would feel alienated if they were supposed to pray to Ganesha, for example. And of course there are people who have more than one god, and therefore need names for them.

Praying to a higher diety, having faith in something that you hope has some control of the universe, that's god.

I would like to hear other opions on this: is we people of the Western world who need someone in charge of everything? Is it that we know that we live on a speck in the universe which can easily collide with another speck, or a thousand other things could happen, and even if they don't, we will die? Are we worse at living with death and arbitarity than more socalled primitive people, who often have a much more filosophical attitude? Do we need to know that our children will make it? Or it is simply a need for a sort of neatness??

UPS! I read 'god' as 'good'. Sorry. But I did not want to erase the question which concerns issues I have been thinking about.

Honestly? I'm more concerned about politicians who decide to use my religion for political mudslinging to win votes. A random pastor at some church with no national or major regional presence is a far cry from shit that's already happening.

All good points, IMO.

I think atheists need not worry, lunatics are more concerned about that moozlim (read brown) guy in town and their crazy mosques, and preventing gay rights.

I would have thought so, but atheists seem to be more talked about lately than usual.

[thir]

I believe that the vast majority of believers only believe what they are told to believe. They have been frightened into believing that their "loving" god will burn them for eternity if they don't go to church every week and donate their money.

I am beginning to realize just how many historical arbitary happenings decide these things. For instance, when Luther came about, Danes 'became' protestants because the then king liked the idea of being head of church as well as the country. And now we are. Much the same in a lot of other places.

Satanism? I don't know how mainstream it is, but it's been around for a long time.

I am no expert on satanism, but I do know it is the Christians that create a devil who hates people. The little I now about satanism is that it is actually many things, that some of it was established as a protest against and attempt to liberation from the many restrains Christianity places on people, that some of it is sort of nature orientated, and that some is some sort of magical universe.

Mainly I think it is a figment of Christian imagination, a way to demonise whatever they do not like.
The word 'satan' is apparently Hebrew for 'opponent' or 'accuser'.

Fear of satanism is an example of how deelpy imbedded christian ideas are in us, like it or not, like the idea of who Baal or Astarte was, or Loke.

[leo9]

I believe it is difficult for us in a world (Western) where life is relatively safe perhaps to understand how anyone can worships a malevalent god, or at least a god or gods that are completely arbitary in what they do. But I have an idea that if your life is depending on stuff that you have No influence over whatsoever, you try to appease or stay of the right side of these powers, be they god or gods, spirits, forces of nature, overlords or whatever. Basically because there is nothing else you Can do.

Someone who teaches Classical history told me how hard it is to explain to most people the concept of propitiation. That for the Greeks and Romans, and probably for most other peoples of their age, a great deal of prayer was about asking the gods to please leave me alone. Not asking favours, that would be WAY too dangerous, but if you were lucky you could persuade them to just turn aside a fraction and not step on you.

Which, as thir says, is a perfectly reasonable attitude when you're addressing the personification of forces like thunder and earthquakes which manifestly don't care who gets hurt.

Part of the confusion arises because the idea of moral dualism - that God = Absolute Good - is relatively new. The ancient world's gods weren't good or evil, except in the relative way we all are; they might be nice to you if they liked you and you made all the right sacrifices, but everyone knew they'd done really mean things in the past and might do it again if the whim took them. JHVH in the Old Testament is clearly just another such, but then someone retrofitted the Zoroastrian concept of a god of Absolute Good (and its inevitable corollary, a not-quite-god of Absolute Evil) and theologians have been trying to make that work ever since.

Same with "evil" gods. Thorne, it's pretty certain that Baal's reputation comes entirely from the Israelites, who weren't exactly unbiased. There is evidence that Baal and JHVH were different tribes' names for the same deity, and nobody is so hated as the people who are almost like us. As for Loki, the Eddas describe the gods calling on him frequently when they needed a cunning plan; since he's recorded as the patron god of eloquence (or to put it another way, lying,) it's likely that people did the same. Of course you wouldn't want to be the target of his sense of humour, but that doesn't make him a devil.

Campbell's Law states that defeated gods become demons.

I would like to hear other opions on this: is we people of the Western world who need someone in charge of everything?

Not sure, but it is a relatively modern idea that anyone, even the gods, are in charge of everything. The ancient gods were always at risk of defeat by some other pantheon or by the palace politics of their own, and Fate was greater than them all.

[leo9]

I am beginning to realize just how many historical arbitary happenings decide these things. For instance, when Luther came about, Danes 'became' protestants because the then king liked the idea of being head of church as well as the country. And now we are. Much the same in a lot of other places.

Not entirely arbitrary, given that almost the same thing happened in England. Rather that the authority of the Church was cracking, and both popular movements and rulers took advantage of it to grab a bit of the Pope's power. But certainly it was more to do with politics than theology.

I am no expert on satanism, but I do know it is the Christians that create a devil who hates people.

Zoroaster seems to have been the inventor of the idea of a power of Absolute Evil (as distinct from a god who might harm you because he was another tribe's god).

The little I now about satanism is that it is actually many things, that some of it was established as a protest against and attempt to liberation from the many restrains Christianity places on people, that some of it is sort of nature orientated, and that some is some sort of magical universe.

I think it's generally accepted now that the Church invented satanism. Executive summary: when the great heresy persecutions of the 13th Century were tailing off because they had run out of people to burn, some Spanish monks who were struggling to convert stubbornly pagan peasants in the mountains had the brilliant idea of rebranding their unglamorous work as another campaign against heresy. They announced that they had discovered the ultimate heresy, people who actually worshipped the Devil, and the Church took it up with a will and started hunting for Satanists everywhere. And as Pratchett observed, the thing about plots and conspiracies is, even if there aren't any to start with, if you hunt for them vigorously enough, pretty soon there will be. Once the Church (and the new Protestant churches) started telling everyone how terribly powerful Satan was and how he tempted his followers with rich rewards, naturally people started to think they'd like a piece of that.

The word 'satan' is apparently Hebrew for 'opponent' or 'accuser'.

Yes, it only appears in the book of Lot, where he seems to be something like JHVH's official torturer. Probably originally refered to an official similar to a Public Prosecutor.

[Thorne]

How can anyone know anything, really? All we know is the feelings and sensations we have, and IME you can experience things in a very clear way which is not with your logic mind or thinking, and though you cannot explain it in the terms of the 'other' system, it is no less real.

I will agree that it sometimes SEEMS real. Like looking at optical illusions, what you THINK you see isn't necessarily what you are actually seeing. Without some sort of objective measuring system, there's now way to tell if something is real or not. Our minds have evolved to interpret information in ways which help us to survive. Sometimes that means fooling ourselves into seeing things that aren't there, even if there really is no threat.

I think that these feelings or spirtual needs or whatever you choose to call them, are not primarily of the flesh, although with us they are usually expressed in the flesh as well as in other ways. But they are not, as I see it, originally of the flesh. I am afraid I find it difficult to make to clear, but, well - the biggest sex organ is the mind - and, as I see it, the spirit.

Yet, what is the mind? What is the spirit? They are, quite literally, a part of the flesh, electro-chemical impulses surging through our brains. And to be blunt, sometimes you cannot trust these impulses. People who have lost limbs often feel phantom pain or sensations in those lost limbs. These can be interpreted as "spirit" limbs, if you like, but in reality they are simply stray electrical surges in our brains.

As I said, realizations can come to one by other means than scientific evidence. Otherwise we wouldn't know enough in our daily lives to even survive.

I'd be curious to know what sort of non-physical 'realizations' you feel are needed for survival. And how can you determine which are the GOOD realizations, which help you, and which are the BAD realizations, which can kill you? And what of different people, in identical circumstances, having conflicting realizations? How do you determine which is valid? If any!

Ah - you are taking the old testament Christian view of Baal? ;-) Good old bloody Jehova, I am sure he is more safe.

Sadly, the Old Testament version of Baal is the only one I know. But personally, I don't find the genocidal Jehovah to be any better at all!

My big beef with religion is the FEAR it inspires in some people, and that fear is the danger. People with no hell or damnation or vengeful gods do not usually bother anyone else. Not on their own initiative, anyway.

One thing that science has shown us is that fear is a powerful tool for controlling people, either individually or as populations. Religions have become especially good at using this fear for their own purposes. Fear of death, fear of punishment, fear of being different. They wield that fear like a sword, slicing away at anything which is not of their own.

Over the last few years atheist groups have begun banding together, forming localized communities of like-minded people. Churches fear these groups because they allow non-theists to come together in the kind of social gatherings which have always been the hallmark of the churches. But they do it without the fear that the churches need. So when an atheist group advertises that it's "Okay to be Good without God!" the theists react with violence and destruction. They cannot allow their people to truly realize that morality does not come from some nebulous heavenly father, but from within ourselves. Without the fear that such a being can inspire the churches lose one of their most powerful weapons of control.

[ksst]

Some of the non physical realizations I can think of are trust, love, hope and even fear. We would not live long without those things. Sure they may have chemical basis in the brain, but a chemical still doesn't really explain them, how we get in those states etc. A spiritually aware state has also produced certain effects in the brain in studies. You can live without God, obviously, but so many people don't want to there must be some benefit to them. Shoot, time for work, I'll have to be back later.

[Thorne]

Some of the non physical realizations I can think of are trust, love, hope and even fear. We would not live long without those things.

Oh, I can imagine living quite long without them. Not sure it would be worth the living, but I don't see them as entirely necessary, except for more social activities.

Sure they may have chemical basis in the brain, but a chemical still doesn't really explain them, how we get in those states etc.

I'm way out of my element in this area, but as far as I can tell, electro-chemical reactions explain them completely. What isn't explainable is why everyone seems to perceive them differently. I would think that if these emotions were hard-wired into our brains by some outside agency they would tend to be virtually the same for all. They are ephemeral feelings, which can have physical effects, of course.

A spiritually aware state has also produced certain effects in the brain in studies.

I'm not sure what you mean by "spiritually aware", but it is true that things like meditation (including prayer, I admit) can have a calming effect on our minds. But claiming this is because of some outside agencies intervention in our lives is disingenuous. There is no tangible evidence for that outside agency in the first place. And in the second, those effects can be observed even in those who meditate WITHOUT reference to some sort of god. Again, these effects can be shown to be electro-chemical in nature, as evidenced by medical testing on brain tissues.

You can live without God, obviously, but so many people don't want to there must be some benefit to them.

I wonder sometimes whether it's a case of people not wanting to, or people being afraid to live without gods. As I noted in my last post, putting the fear of God into people is a major weapon of religions. Breaking that cycle of fear, realizing that there is nothing there to fear in the first place, is a very difficult thing to do. I know. I had to overcome those fears myself, and even now I occasionally find myself backsliding a bit.

But I don't try to make the claim that people MUST live without gods, or even that the should. I state only that people need to be taught how to live without RELIGION. What they choose to believe in is up to them. Having someone else tell them what they MUST believe in is slavery.

[ksst]

Sometimes people choose to be slaves. I have very little religious baggage I guess. I went to a very liberal church when I was really little, then no church at all. I have no fear of hell or the devil or anything like that, and don't believe they exist. Still, prayer can be comforting, especially when praying over something that is completely beyond our control. And sometimes you get an answer.

I don't think people in general would live long with hope. The alternative is suicide. Without love, babies fail to thrive and they literally can die. Without trust there is no banding together against adversity. These things necessary to our survival as humans.