What's fair when pushing limits?

Here's a quote from another thread. I'm pretty new to this site and didn't really want to comment on something I don't understand, but this quote has been on my mind.

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Originally Posted by Sir_Russell

Recently I took a lovely lady deep into subspace she was gone nothing mattered but my touch, spanking her clit to several climaxes. She found herself doing things for me willingly that she swore she would never do and doing them about as well as I have ever experienced she did this very slowly and calmly. Her speech was slow husky and a little other worldly.

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So this is my question: If someone tells you when s/he is pretty coherent that s/he has certain limits, is it fair to take them past those limits during play, and if so, when? We might all agree that if someone is drunk or otherwise impaired that they probably can't morally "consent" to things they had previously vetoed, but if someone is deep in subspace or any kind of stupor is it more fair to ask them to "agree" to violate a limit? I'm not suggesting that if someone is very aroused, or had a glass of wine, or has a hangnail, that they can't consent, and it's obviously a spectrum, but still, there must be a point at which the idea of consent loses its meaning. Do people ever discuss these things in advance, like, I understand you are not interested in this now, but if you become carried away during play would you be OK with having done this? Maybe that's a good test - how did Sir Russell's friend feel later about having engaged in these activities? Of couse, making the Dom/me guess what the sub will think later is not fair either. What do other people think about this?

I think this particular anectdote falls into the "aroused" category you mention.

I've experienced a lot of "soft" limits breached and at the initiation of the submissive... and it doesn't take inebriation or subspace to cause it.

In fact, it usually happens because they know I desire something... and they decide they want to give it to me despite their former reservations.

But you are also wise to ask the question. The exploration of your limits is one of the most difficult things you will do with your partner. You have to be able to trust in him/her, and you have to be able to trust in yourself as well.

I'll start with the disclaimer that it is something each submissive would have to ask themselves at one point or other. I can only give my own perspective on this.

I have very few limits, the usual "no kids, animals, dead people, scat", I also have one or two which are phobias of mine, one of these is water bondage.
I have been in play and spacey when this activity was implied and I snapped right out of my spacey place and refused. I was pretty pissed at this guy for suggesting it knowing I had a fear of it and was never going to contemplate pushing it.

This was obviously an extreme one, and I would not react so badly if it were a soft limit of mine - for example - humiliation of certain sorts.

That is my two penneth, and it is up to each person within the dynamic to decide on such things.

Yes it's a good idea to discuss all limits, soft and hard before any scene. I make it clear what limits will get tossed right out the window depending on my mood. Yes, subspace does make things hazy. My pain tolerance is much higher for one, so I tend to lose my ability to say 'when'. I however am fairly certain that if something were to press too hard on my hard limits, I'd snap out of subspace, and probably be pissed about it.

I have few limits at all really, but I do have some. Of the few hard limits I have... I really really mean it.

No, I don't think it's fair to 'take advantage', but if you have open and clear communication, there is no fear of that happening. You as the Dom know what your sub is willing to do. Only you can know them well enough to know what they will be comfortable with after the deed is done. Sit down, and have a chat with your sub. Limits get pushed, slowly. The chats need to happen often as things change.

we all talk about limits and having them pushed etc but i think very often we tend to forget exactly what we mean by that.
for eg if i was totally spaced out i wouldnt even notice any limits had been pushed until it was too late, so even discussing it beforehand would be moot.
limits should only be pushed/broken when both parties are 100% aware of it

I think that there is a definite difference between a hard limit (no, not ever, not under any circumstances) and a soft limit. A lot of soft limits are things that haven't been tried before as opposed to something not liked or something you are willing to do because your partner likes it.

That being said, without open communication between partners, you're not going to know which button is being pressed. You have to know yourself and what your lines are. You also have to trust your partner to only push the soft limits and to listen to your words and your body.

Be aware that a person who initially consents to sexual conduct is not deemed to have consented to any sexual conduct that occurs after s/he withdraws consent. In other words, if at anytime you or your partner safe words out and says “No,” stop immediately.

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Originally Posted by Euryleia

That being said, without open communication between partners, you're not going to know which button is being pressed. You have to know yourself and what your lines are. You also have to trust your partner to only push the soft limits and to listen to your words and your body.

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As with so much else in this lifestyle, communication is key here. My kitten communicates these well, there are hard-limits and in-the-right-frame-of-mind-limits.

I personally find it a crime and beyound reprehensible to push a girl past any pre-established hard limit, period.

Too many ,in the throws of passion or otherwise, have submitted to an activity with permament life changing negative phycological damage.

The dominant is ultimately the responsible party and should possess the self control and disipline required to say "No, I will not do that too you at this time," or "No, we need to talk this over at a later time."

The complete saftey (including phycological) of one's submissive should be of paramont importance.

The "oh she did't use the safe word so it must be ok" excuse simply doesnt fly in my book.

Especially when she is compartmentalized into what many here call "sub-space" or under other not so extreme seeming forms of phycological compulsion to "be pleasing".

If one does not possess the wisdom to act with honor and "wield the whip of dominion" with the upmost of care; then perhaps one is not ready to venture into such dealings as those of a Master to his slave.

You can probably tell from my thanks where I fall on this question. I agree with the hard limits/soft limits distinction, if you're sure which is which, but I do feel that the Dom/me has responsibility for the sub's well-being - not in a global sense, but in the local sense that s/he chose to give up physical and psychological control of the situation and I think both aspects need to be protected. Otherwise, what's the point of the power exchange?

If someone is clear that there are activities that s/he is truly not interested in, I think even asking when s/he is that vulnerable is unfair.

But sometimes, the hard limit isn't so much hard as misunderstood.

My girl had a limit against animal play... Didn't want to be a pet dog or cat. Told me leashes were a hard limit.

When I snapped the leash on her and told her she was now mine... she suddenly understood that her limit wasn't the leash at all... just being treated as an animal... and that I understood her better than she did. She loves the leash.

Now... I was very sure of the real issue... and of her reaction based on conversations we had... but until she heard the click, in context, she didn't really believe what I was telling her.

A difficult but appropriate push of her limit... to dissassociate the leash from her perception of it.

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Originally Posted by Kuskovian

The dominant is ultimately the responsible party and should possess the self control and disipline required to say "No, I will not do that too you at this time," or "No, we need to talk this over at a later time."

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I agree completely... but barring those who are reckless, there are times when one must rely on ones experience to bring ones sub along.

More important than the discussions of the limits themselves, are the discussions behind why the limits are just that, "limits." That gives both parties a much better understanding of what can and should be pushed and what should remain an absolute no-no.

As the depths of "why" are examined, I think most folks find a definite split between what they don't want to do and what they don't think they can do. For example, I have a VERY VERY VERY hard time verbalizing my submission - being asked to call J "Master" or to beg for something I want locks me up completely. I will take a beating till I bleed easier than being told to speak when I'm in a session. Why? Because to make my body vulnerable is easier than to uncover my thoughts. A couple years ago I would have said, "I would never call anyone 'Master!' I won't do that!" and I would have meant it.

But...did I want to? Sure, in the deep dark secret places inside of me I sure did, just didn't think I could. When I read Sir Russell's account of his time with his girl, I read it as him guiding her through things she didn't think she could do, which I'm fine with. That's part of a Dom's job, to make the uncomfortable safe.

Now, if I had a hard limit such as "no knife play," and I were asked "why?" I could provide an answer such as "because I don't want scarring." OK, concrete "no" with a concrete reason. That being the case, if my Dom were to cut me during play we would have a most definite issue.

Clear as mud? lol ;)

Hope that helps a little.

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Originally Posted by DowntownAmber

More important than the discussions of the limits themselves, are the discussions behind why the limits are just that, "limits." That gives both parties a much better understanding of what can and should be pushed and what should remain an absolute no-no.

As the depths of "why" are examined, I think most folks find a definite split between what they don't want to do and what they don't think they can do. For example, I have a VERY VERY VERY hard time verbalizing my submission - being asked to call J "Master" or to beg for something I want locks me up completely. I will take a beating till I bleed easier than being told to speak when I'm in a session. Why? Because to make my body vulnerable is easier than to uncover my thoughts. A couple years ago I would have said, "I would never call anyone 'Master!' I won't do that!" and I would have meant it.

But...did I want to? Sure, in the deep dark secret places inside of me I sure did, just didn't think I could. When I read Sir Russell's account of his time with his girl, I read it as him guiding her through things she didn't think she could do, which I'm fine with. That's part of a Dom's job, to make the uncomfortable safe.

Now, if I had a hard limit such as "no knife play," and I were asked "why?" I could provide an answer such as "because I don't want scarring." OK, concrete "no" with a concrete reason. That being the case, if my Dom were to cut me during play we would have a most definite issue.

Clear as mud? lol

Hope that helps a little.

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It does,...a little, ;). Seriously though, most of the time what helps the most is knowing you are not the only one.

Thank you,
D.

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Originally Posted by Ozme52

But sometimes, the hard limit isn't so much hard as misunderstood.

My girl had a limit against animal play... Didn't want to be a pet dog or cat. Told me leashes were a hard limit.
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i can agree with this and have been in many similar situations myself and all has gone well, but there can also be other unknown problems, what if another sub in those exact same circumstances had stated this was a hard limit but had very painful and personal reasons as to why? its all very well to say communicate well which i agree with totally but sometimes there are things that can take a long time to communicate fully.
for eg, for a long time i had a hard limit of any form of strangulation IH was aware of that but not why, when we first met i filled in the c/list we'd talked/played much etc that i told him why, when i was younger id been strangled, he knew id been assaulted etc but didnt know the full details and i hadnt wanted to tell him when i barely knew him, eventually in my own time (which is very important for anyone) i did, now had he pushed as you did i would probably have really freaked out on him something terrible and the outcome would have been very very different and possibly even dangerous.

sometimes there are maybe things that a sub needs to approach the Dom/me with? any hard limits i had i gradually approached IH with ..soft limits he would 'push' but even then very carefully..now maybe that sounds like i was topping from the bottom but i think that's very often the safest way to call it.
even soft limits can cause dilemmas, i mean there are things that to begin with especially for anyone inexperienced we may feel are soft limits UNTIL it comes to it we are pushed then we suddenly find that they're not so soft after all, after all if you've never tried it than how can you be sure? it's better in my book to play carefully.

and despite any discussions and agreements i still believe that regardless of anything, nothing should be pushed if the sub is spaced out..there has been occasions and im sure im not the only one when play has had to stop for me immediately because ive been so 'far gone' that although my body has responded i hadnt actually had a clue of what was being done to it and because of the things we'd been doing i dread to think of the outcome if IH hadnt recognised that.
im not saying for 1 minute thats what happened with SirRussels girl...but what if it was?

I have a lot to say about this topic - and will try to keep it short. :rolleyes:

First of all - when discussing hard limits...giving a reason for why something is a hard limit is imperative to me. For the most common hard limits I think we all understand why - they are either morally repugnant (children) or commonly disgusting and a disease issue (scat). But each person's individual, personal hard limits - you owe it to yourself and your Dom to talk about why. For example, one of my hard limits is fire play. It is an absolute, always, NO. Why? Because my twin daughters died in a fire. I'm not afraid of it...I simply do not and will not go there. The degree of openess that I must feel in my submission...the level to which I open my heart and mind to my Dom...tells me that I cannot know how I'd react to fire during play, and frankly, adding something to play that reminds of their death - how they died - and reminds me of the years it took me to learn to live with the loss would not be healthy mentally or emotionally for me. This is a hard limit that I have no fear he will ever, ever push.

The leash incident? Yes, he knew what I meant by the limit and knew that the leash was not the actual issue. Thank goodness! Because I do adore the leash. :)

As for Sir Russell's post...I believe that when we tell our Dom "I don't know if I would like that or if I could do that" - that's NOT a hard limit. It is simply expressing reservation or doubt. Isn't that one of the rewards of submission...to go beyond what we think we can do? To trust our Dom to know when to push, to know that we can do what we ourselves aren't sure of? I've read Sir Russell's posts for almost 2 years now, both here and on other forums, have talked with him as a friend...and if he were my Dom, I would trust him implicitly. I have never read anything he has written that has changed my mind on that.

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Originally Posted by damyanti

It does,...a little, ;). Seriously though, most of the time what helps the most is knowing you are not the only one.

Thank you,
D.

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You're welcome. My pleasure.

And this brings up another good point actually. Slightly off topic, perhaps, but I think adds to the thread in general: not only should we be talking to our respective Doms about the "why?" factor to our limits but it never hurts to pick the brains of the other subs, either. It's amazing the "beed there, done that, here's what I learned" value in these relationships. A lot of times other subs can help us put to words what we may not know how to describe, thus helping EVERYONE in the D/s dynamic.

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Originally Posted by icey

i can agree with this and have been in many similar situations myself and all has gone well, but there can also be other unknown problems, what if another sub in those exact same circumstances had stated this was a hard limit but had very painful and personal reasons as to why? its all very well to say communicate well which i agree with totally but sometimes there are things that can take a long time to communicate fully.
for eg, for a long time i had a hard limit of any form of strangulation IH was aware of that but not why, when we first met i filled in the c/list we'd talked/played much etc that i told him why, when i was younger id been strangled, he knew id been assaulted etc but didnt know the full details and i hadnt wanted to tell him when i barely knew him, eventually in my own time (which is very important for anyone) i did, now had he pushed as you did i would probably have really freaked out on him something terrible and the outcome would have been very very different and possibly even dangerous.

sometimes there are maybe things that a sub needs to approach the Dom/me with? any hard limits i had i gradually approached IH with ..soft limits he would 'push' but even then very carefully..now maybe that sounds like i was topping from the bottom but i think that's very often the safest way to call it.
even soft limits can cause dilemmas, i mean there are things that to begin with especially for anyone inexperienced we may feel are soft limits UNTIL it comes to it we are pushed then we suddenly find that they're not so soft after all, after all if you've never tried it than how can you be sure? it's better in my book to play carefully.

and despite any discussions and agreements i still believe that regardless of anything, nothing should be pushed if the sub is spaced out..there has been occasions and im sure im not the only one when play has had to stop for me immediately because ive been so 'far gone' that although my body has responded i hadnt actually had a clue of what was being done to it and because of the things we'd been doing i dread to think of the outcome if IH hadnt recognised that.
im not saying for 1 minute thats what happened with SirRussels girl...but what if it was?

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Absolutely right icey. I wouldn't take it upon myself to push "because I'm the Dom and I know best..." It has to be born of understanding all your partner's motivations. And of course, if you feel something is being held back, then you talk more.

Now, just as an example, under the right circumstances, if you hadn't shared the crucial information with me... might it all come spilling out if I put my hands to your neck and (without squeezing in the slightest) just talked to you? Not violating the limit per se... but definitely playing around the edges of the limit.

BTW, I would not call it 'topping from the bottom' because such conversations are usually held outside of the scene. We all profess communication, and if we put a perjorative label on discussing limits, we put inpediments to making that communication useful.

I want to thank everyone for their thoughts on what is clearly an important issue to me, and I'm glad to see that others feel strongly too. I also want to apologize for posting the quote with a name on it, because my question was raised by the quote but I did not intend to question anyone's actual behavior in that situation, which I obviously don't know anything about. It raised more of a hypothetical question for me.

I'm still at the thinking stage about hard and soft limits, and to the extent that I've interacted with anyone I've had occasion to learn that I have issues and limits that I never would have guessed at, so obviously you can't predict everything in advance, including what you might enjoy that you are too timid to try. I still see part of the issue as being under what circumstances the Dom/me chooses to push.

One of the things that happened to me recently was that in the throes of some kind of submissive haze I allowed some things that hadn't been previously discussed at all, but that I have to say no one in their right mind would have thought of as limits at all. There was no way my partner could have predicted that these would be issues for me, so I place no responsibility on him, but in fact I was extremely freaked out afterwards and still am. And I guess that's why I react to strongly to the idea of really being in subspace or whatever and having someone push something that I actually knew would be a problem for me. I think I would do it, I think the more challenging it was for me that more I would be willing to do it, and I think I would be a basket case afterward. So maybe I'm not cut out to cede this kind of control to someone.

to answer your eg Ozme yes, i would probably not to put too fine a point on it have totally freaked out and gone f****g mental lol in fact i think i still would if someone did it to me other than in play, now strangulation is one of my favourite things but it was done when I felt ready for it.

i can see what you're getting at (i think) and can appreciate what you're saying and agree re communication but for some people there are somethings that no matter how intimate you may be with a person no matter how important you know communication should be that are too painful and personal to disclose for a long time if ever and very often those things are of a sexual nature which is why i believe that the pushing of hard limits should be done with extreme caution and when all concerned are in a very clear frame of mind.

ok in that particular instance why i didnt tell him about it i dont know, it wasnt exactly a major thing to hide, but i couldnt until much later in our r/ship im human and human beings very often put emotion before communication and logic.