TOm, I would say it is the mental struggle. A good mind fuck can be as satisfying as a good whipping in my book.
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TOm, I would say it is the mental struggle. A good mind fuck can be as satisfying as a good whipping in my book.
Then there's the MindFuck that can be " induced " (( and i shall leave that at that.) chuckles insanely )
Wolf. . . . in some cases wouldnt that be "fucked mind????"
*shakes my head... thinking all of them are EVIL EVIL EVIL ESB's.... *
(no wonder we love em so!)
I'm still here reading just so you know I have not abandoned this thread. Thanks for all the comments.
Very interesting thread. OK, this is just the random thoughts that occurred to me, and it is just my opinion.
Every sub is different, every Dom/me is different, every D/s relationship is different: the aims are different. Some relationships are much looser, much more based on just sexual play and fun, and not expecting true power transfer. Therefore tasks and task failure can take on a different aspect. It certainly seems to me that in setting a really hard task - long-term cum restriction, for example - the D is purposefully setting a task at which the s will eventually fail. They will keep extending the time until the s fails. Because They will enjoy meeting out the punishment, They will enjoy the distress of the sub. And the sub will accept this pushing of their limits, knowing that, however hard they try they will fail eventually, and knowing that they will eventually enjoy the punishment, however miserable it makes them: even being miserable is just part of it.
But that is when the sub is not purposefully failing: they are sincerely trying to achieve it and stretch their limits, but their D has pushed it to their fail point. It may very well be that next time, the fail point is higher: the sub may learn. Or they may never be able to extend the fail point. That`s just down to the individual and their inner strength and control. We all have a breaking point somewhere.
On the other hand, the sub may very well purposefully fail a task sometimes, but I think it will be to communicate something: it can be playful (hey, I just failed a task that You know I know You know was easy, so You know I failed it on purpose just to wind You up, now You`ve gotta do something about it, that`s pretty much the equivalent of sticking the tongue out and running), willful (I`m in a bad mood and I plain don`t feel submissive so stick this) or a statement of limits (I do not like this, it is beyond what I can accept and I refuse to do it). Now, the playful failure can be acceptable and fun: it depends totally on the level of control and obedience that is expected and agreed on within the reltionship. It can also be that the D is in someway failing their sub: the sub is possibly Topping from the bottom, there. And that is a communication failure. That option and the other purposeful failures all seem to me to indicate communication failure: the D should be aware that sometimes, punishment is not what is needed: sometimes, discussion is. And that could be very hard, and possibly punishment enough, certainly part of learning.
For me there is an entirely different mind set when i am whipped just for the hell of it and whipped as a punishment. So, with that knowledge, the task may be designed so that i fail so that i reach a different level then i would have through just a whipping.Quote:
Originally Posted by TomOfSweden
That of course also comes with a potential for disaster as well... a very good mind fuck but a fine line as well...
THANK YOU Moptop! That was what i was trying to say on the first page and failed at miserably....Quote:
Originally Posted by moptop
(*wonders if that failure will get me a spanking... hmmmmmm)
My perspective.
there are a variety of things that go into making this happen. As these posts all bring out, there is a lot of confusion in this life, and even in real life.
I have been reading this thread almost from the beginning, and keep wondering if what I have to say will kake any difference in the long run. I know that personally, I just hate what is happening so much at times that i sanp out at those who are close to me. i would think this would be magnified for a sub, which is why I always strive to make things as easy as possible for them by learning as much about them as possible.
In spite of this, I occasionally miss the signs that she gives, and I walk into something. i then have to deal with that, with her not being happy about what happened, and the fact that I am the one that blew it. If I had been paying attention, I could have given her the release that she needed, rather than force her to show me what she needed.
So, concious or unconcious. Both and neither, and sometimes one or the other. Depends, as has been said, on the situation, the sub, and the Dom/me.
Wow, there so many more great posts in this thread! Moptop, Well done! What you said was so right, and yes, everyone does have a fail point. I also loved your description of the different reasons a sub might fail a task! It seems to me that maybe you have experienced all of those reasons personally! LOL
Rhabbi, I loved your view as a Dom. I am sure not all Dom/mes are able to reflect on a situatioin like that, but it needs to happen.
I know that my Master puts a lot of thought into the tasks he sets me, but there will always be an element of the unknown while I am performing a task. For instance, there is a task I am due to do this afternoon, part of which he knows will be very hard for me to do. I have told him this and said I will do my best, as it is the first time I will do this certain task. Knowing that he knows upfront I might fail in part of the task is much better then him thinking everything will be fine, and then me telling him I couldn't do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussiegirl1
Baby you still are batting 1000 you have never failed me yet. I love you for trying everything asked of you.
Thank you Master! You know it was the toughest thing I have done for you so far, but I do feel wonderful to know I did it. Thank you for your support! BIG KISSQuote:
Originally Posted by Warbaby1943
My experience has been f-2-f (thanks for the term J's blu) with some long distance. I find that I love orgasm control but I don't understand why anyone would go beyond 2 days.
Personally I think it is irresponsible of the Dom/me to ask for that. I want my sub/slave to be happy to be mine, not to wonder what the hell can be gained by this.
The worst experience I have had in the life did not come from subjecting her to too much pain but from having her blindfolded and cuffed into an uncomfortable position. I kept driving her further and further into sub space with many types of pleasure/pain exploits and she began to beg for release. I love to hear my sub/slave beg and so I told her no and continued, her pleading became intense and I just kept on. When she came she was crying because she couldn't hold on anymor.
I felt like shit that I who was supposed to be in control forced her to break my rule of no climax without permission. She spent 20 minutes sobbing about how she failed me. I tried over the next few days to make her understand that it was I that failed her.
Doms need to push limits but we also need to know when the limit is about to be broken and trust lost to some degree.
Just my thoughts
Russell
forgive me but...
here's a question back to you as a Dom/me
don't you sometimes issue your order with the subconscious desire that we do disobey?
im not saying that Dom/mes set out to deliberatly set a task that a sub would fail at nor am i saying that a sub will deliberatly disobey...but...
it stands to reason that if you both enjoy the outcome of the punishment, that there would be some underlying desire for that to be the end result, wouldn't it?
just popping in another point of view here because im feeling like pushing my luck - lol - Lord knows, that will get me in trouble eventually!
to be serious, i will answer another way as well - when my Master sets forth a task for me that i find unusually difficult, i still try my best to comply with the terms of that task - succeed or fail, i need to know that i did my best and i need Him to know i did my best. if i have tried...honestly and really truly tried...and still failed, that will yield a far more different result than if i only tried half-assed in an attempt to lure out the punishment if it is one that i may enjoy.
as a side note, when ever i have tried to lure out the punishment i think i want, my Master has made certain that it is not something i would enjoy...not at all - and i end up losing twice...not only did i disappoint my Master, i ended up being severly punished when i thought i might get away with something that would ultimately be enjoyable.
orchid,
I speak only for me not for all Dom/mes but I never set a task that I feel she will have to fail at. There is an old saying that I will probably mangle that goes like this, "It is a wise general that leads his troops where they want to go, it is a great general that can inspire his troops to want to go where they must".
When she fails a task I set then I have failed her. Punishment is given to correct the behavor and adjust the attitude but when punishment is for a real transgression then it should never be enjoyable to the sub/slave.
Russell
I just can't see the point of being set a task which he knows I fail. It seems to set up us both on a route to something which we both dislike.
TDS - you ask about Dom's deliberately putting a sub into a no-win situation. I don't think I have ever experienced that, and I would feel betrayed if he did. I take his requests extremely seriously and do my utmost to meet them - I would not know how to react to a deliberately impossible one, but thinking about it, it would seem to mock my endeavours to please him and it would be harmful to our relationship.
Now a task which he hopes I will achieve, but will stretch me, is different. That becomes a mutual task, my part is to keep going and be successful in it, and his is to encourage and support me to help me to achieve that success. If I succeed then we can both celebrate, and if I fail, we both fail, and knowing that the disappointment we both feel at what I have not achieved is more than adequate punishment. At that point I need reassurance rather than isolation. Now, that reassurance might involve me getting very sore - not as a punishment, but as a reaffirmation of our relationship.
cariad
I think that the D/s relationship TDS is refering to is radically different than what I and from the sound of it, you have, and are thinking about. I share your sentiment completely, but I doubt TDS would set up his slave with tasks that she will fail, if they have a relationship where completing tasks is important. Mindgames of this sort only work if both see it as just that, a game.Quote:
Originally Posted by cariad<U_E>
I think it's a question of what you're trying to build together. Do I as a Master want to let my slave show devotion by completing tasks for me, or do I as a Master just want to see how far I can push my slave before she breaks.
I think it's simply a matter of what we think is most fun and finding a slave or Master on the same level.
I never set a task I want I think Aussiegirl will fail. I don't want her to ever fail. I want her happy and she is happy when she thinks of tasks as achievable. Neither of us are into pain or punishment and I don't think I could punish her if I tried. I want more her happiness than to fulfill some need to her see her suffer. That's just not me. Mind games I love to play with her but punishment isn't on my agenda.
TDS has yet to set up a task for me that i would fail at. That is how i show my devotion to Him is through the completion of assorted tasks, just as most of the subbie's out there do for their Dominates.
Have i failed a task with Him, yes, but, as i stated earlier in this thread, it was not an intentional failure at the time and since then the order has been revised to allow me the best chance of success. And when W/we discussed that failure i saw it as a complete failure at the time, where as He saw it as i had failed one portion of the exact task but something else in the relationship had grown and advanced from that failure, so ultimately there were overall positive results.
There have been tasks that i have almost failed at... but then again, they weren't designed for that to be the outcome but they were designed to push a limit and to help our relationship grow....
Will there be a time that TDS gives me a catch 22 task? i, as His, expect it on many levels. Have we directly discussed that being something that would happen. No, but based on what i know about Him, the type of play that we both enjoy, etc. i expect it to happen for two simple reasons...
1. There are some areas that i can not experience growth in until i am pushed to the point of failure just based on who i am. i have to "fail" in order to get past the confines, probably mental more then anything, that is preventing success in other areas. i need the failure to be able to release myself so that i will allow and accept the resulting growth. There are many out there who function this way... and imho, i would rather have a planned failure (although i may not know exactly at that moment that it is planned), where i know i will be picked up and taken care of after wards so i can grow and move forward then to have the failure when i am most vulnerable to extreme negatives without the follow up care. (If that makes any sense.)
2. As TDS said, sometimes a mind fuck can be as enjoyable as a good whipping. Would everyone enjoy that... no. But, like with any good D/s relationship that is where boundries, limits, etc. are discussed before hand and put into play. TDS knows that i ultimately enjoy the mind fuck. It, to me, is a large part of a D/s relationship and i do enjoy that as much as i do a good whipping! And, at the point of realization of the mind fuck, is where it becomes evident that the task was not a "failure." The portion of the task that made the mind fuck successful may have required a failure on some level but ultimately the ending result is a success for both of us. His knowing (as well as it can be known) the response and my response, which would require a great deal of trust in Him and the relationship, during the mind fuck work towards that success and in the end growth.
So, that being said, yes both reasons, but especially reason 2 has to be handled with caution and care. Communication has to be open, limits discussed, etc. Tasks designed in those fashions probably, in some ways, require more detail to attention by a Dominate then a majority of other tasks, just because of the possible extreme emotions that could be caused by either.
But, are they wrong? NO... as long as that is what each in the relationship enjoy. Do they make the relationship a "game?" By no means do they do that. It adds a different aspect to the relationship, but as before if that is what each party enjoys there is nothing wrong with it. Is that for each couple? Once again NO... each person/couple/relationship is different.
Just another aspect of what makes each D/s relationship so special and unique.
EDIT: i do feel that i need to add a note here. There is a difference between a "mind fuck" and a Dominate who is actually just an abuser or out to be cruel. A mind fuck is something both parties ultimately enjoy... imho, in some fashion. If a Dominate does it for any other purpose, his own pleasure, etc. without considering the sub, their response, the future of that response, etc. that is when it moves into abuse... Once again just my opinion but felt it necessary to add...
Precious, as you say in your edit, none of this applies to abusive relationships. That being said, I think the paragraph should be framed and added to the entrance hall of this place.Quote:
Originally Posted by precious{TDS}
One of the joys of this place is discovering what works for other people, sometimes exploring those ideas with them, and then personally accepting or rejecting it as something embraceable.
It would be very a boring place to be if we were all the same, each with the same experiences and perspectives.
Well said Precious,
cariad
The post have been very enlightening. I have enjoyed them all. Thanks everyone.
great points by everyone i think
wonderful conversation