How far do you go?

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Originally Posted by rce

OK, if you are speechless, I guess you have no idea what advice to give to those who do not like to use safe words.

Is it really so incomprehensible that someone can be sensitive enough not to lose control, even if there is no such thing as a safe word?

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It's your knowing she had a safe word and did not use it when she did .. that is the problem I see here.
I find you ignoring some one with a safe word as Conduct Unbecoming a Dom.
There is pushing the limits.. a safeword sets that limit in hard boundary.

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Originally Posted by rce

I say that if a sub has a dream about really being raped, and her dom rapes her despite her saying their safe word, this is not abuse. This is making her dream come true. A jury would probably come to the opposite position, if the case went to court, but the jury is not always right.

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Regardless of what fantasy a sub tells you doesn't give you the right to push it and enact it beyond that safe word.
If her fantasy was a snuff film would you make that dream come true?
I would say you were so far wrong as to need to seriously rethink your own situation.
I think it bespeaks of you losing control and not paying attention to her needs and desires. I would think a Dom who does lacks the ability to be responsible for others. This seems you only fulfilled your own in this action .. not hers. She declared hers to you when she used the safeword.
I would wonder of the sub herself.
I would also wonder if this sub chose to stay with you and to her from her herself.

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Originally Posted by Wolfscout

It's your knowing she had a safe word and did not use it when she did .. that is the problem I see here.
I find you ignoring some one with a safe word as Conduct Unbecoming a Dom.
There is pushing the limits.. a safeword sets that limit in hard boundary.

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Yes, a safe word does, but there was no safe word. I would think that is clear from what I wrote before. A safe word does set a definite limit. If there is no safe word, one have to use one's judgment.

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Regardless of what fantasy a sub tells you doesn't give you the right to push it and enact it beyond that safe word.
If her fantasy was a snuff film would you make that dream come true?

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No, but there is a significant difference. Intercourse generally does no irreparable harm, consensual or not, while murder or mayhem does.

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I would say you were so far wrong as to need to seriously rethink your own situation.

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What if I already did rethink it? This thread is about stretching limits.

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I think it bespeaks of you losing control and not paying attention to her needs and desires. I would think a Dom who does lacks the ability to be responsible for others. This seems you only fulfilled your own in this action .. not hers. She declared hers to you when she used the safeword.
I would wonder of the sub herself.
I would also wonder if this sub chose to stay with you and to her from her herself.

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We are still a couple, years later. Just after the event, we talked it through, there were no hard feelings. On the contrary, she agreed with me that she had told me on numerous occasions she wanted me to rape her. The event has never been an issue again.

We still often play rape games. She has since never objected in the manner she did at the event described by me.

Judge for yourself if you still think I am a bad Dom.

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Originally Posted by MG_cleo

...Those who choose not to use a safeword must make that choice themselves: however that choice must be both informed and consensual and the decision should be reached by BOTH parties. It must never be assumed by one or the other.

One of the greatest privileges that a dominant can be charged with is the responsibility to ensure the well-being of his submissive (both mental and physical) and ignoring such obvious signals as you describe for one's own self gratification, and then justifying those actions by saying "that's what she actually wanted" signifies, in my opinion, a real need to look at how such a relationship is managed...

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Let me add that we have never had safe words, neither before nor after that event. It just has never been an issue. To me, safe words takes away the edge. If you know your sub, you need no safe word, unless you play really dangerous games. We have never done that.

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Originally Posted by rce

Yes, a safe word does, but there was no safe word. I would think that is clear from what I wrote before. A safe word does set a definite limit. If there is no safe word, one have to use one's judgment.

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Originally Posted by rce

Well, when I first read the headline, I thought of things that would be illegal in most places. I have, for example, raped my sub. By that, I do not mean just as play, she objected in the "safe word" manner, but I carried on and finished the intercourse anyway.

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what is after is not the issue.

you stated yourself she used the safeword and you carried on. that is the issue we are discussing. That is why all the posts after yours are about.

Removing Admin hat before I post.

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Originally Posted by rce

No, but there is a significant difference. Intercourse generally does no irreparable harm, consensual or not, while murder or mayhem does.

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There are women whose entire lives are ruined by non consensual intercourse, agreed some are only left unable to have healthy relationships, and some merely have a one or a handful of decades of their lives blighted by it.

On what basis do you say that it generally does no irreparable harm?
What do you count as reparable harm?
When do you consider the harm has been repaired?

cariad

Well I am at this very moment discussing and arranging a rape scenario with my Monsieur (yes we've sort of made rapid progress...). This is for me my first real role play, and my first 'violent' sex (as opposed to 'straight' sm). I am nervous (and excited). But if I for one second thought that he wouldn't stop at the safe word, I wouldn't begin to discuss it.

rce, you say there was no safe word and never has been; that totally contradicts you saying that she objected in a safe-word manner and you just carried on.

You say you discussed it and it was no problem, you're still together as a successful couple. I can imagine a situation where I was in an abusive relationship, rather than a truly consensual and sharing one, and within that I would be too damn frightened and too damn cowed to be able to say 'you raped me you bastard, I said stop and you didn't, you betrayed my trust in you'. Betrayal, fear - these things do not get fixed overight. Abuse - can last a lifetime. That is the impression or at the very least the concern that I get from this discussion.

Moptop, that is exactly my thoughts.
I think i am a very uneloquent fellow when trying to get my ideas across.

Well put, moptop. It's kind of naive to think people, especially a sub who is close to subspace/frightened, or who has just been through a violent and disconcerting scene, would feel totally up to saying "no, this is far too much for me, I don't feel good/I didn't feel it was okay at all" - and even less, that you could know for sure in advance what will work. You have to weigh in the sense of dependency (for similar reasons, you can't just buy it on her words if a prostitute says "but I like my job: I love doing this, I make more money than a doctor and I'm totally in control of working hours" Of course nobody will say "I loathe what I do for a living and I would never tell my friends, but I need to do this six days a week because I found myself in a blind alley and don't want to be crawling in front of the Social Security people") In most cases, peope who are in prostitution don't have an easy option iof stepping clear out of the trade and going back to a secure vanilla life (in this case, for one, "vanilla" is a positive term)

And few things hurt more, mentally, than having your privates intruded and being sexually treated like a doll by the wrong person or in the wrong way. It's not about tha amount of violence used but about the degradation, the feeling of being juggled and used for fun like a lump of meat. Yes. this is the very stuff that also fuels masochist fantasies of me and many others here, but we should be able to see it has to be consensual in some way. and firmly checked to be consensual.


Not being with a R/L Dominant I don't have that many sensational tales to bring up, but with the right people (a bi couple?) I would happily consider being bound, raped and abused in a r/l scene, though it'd happen only with people I knew very well and certainly not without a safeword.

ohhh my head...~sighs~

ok...so here's what i am thinking.. it's not a matter of not using a safeword. heck Master and i didn't have one at all until a few weeks ago when we decided our play was getting more and more intense and of course we want me to be safe. so rce, if you do not use a safeword in your relationship, then it's OK. as long as that is something you and your sub have discussed and agreed upon.

the problem is that in your original post, you insinuated that your sub had tried to use her safeword and that you ignored it. that is what is getting everyone's panties in a bunch, hun. can you make the clarification there? did she have a safeword and tried to use it? or did she not and was just doing the usual kind of responses when it comes to rape play? (ie: "no, please stop!")

i think before this gets any more heated we should wait for that clarification from rce. i think this is just a misunderstanding..

Let's just agree that there are no rules. What ever works for the people involved is great. I've had slaves for 14 years now. I may not have been the best Master with every slave but I did pick up a few skills. One of those was to read a slave, to see if she's enjoying herself. I don't need a safeword any longer. There was times I needed it, but at that time I didn't know I did. Which sucks. My point is that I think we should be careful condemning anybody who don't follow the golden rules of BDSM.

If you do have a safeword with your slave and she uses it, and you don't respect it...then...well. Then it isn't a safeword. Safewords are symbols. We can load symbols up with anything we please. Safewords that aren't respected are just wind blowing. If your slave says the safeword and you don't respect it, I'd say you've spent any trust you might have built up. And if the slave sticks around in spite of this, she's just really foolish. About as foolish a Master might be who ignores spoken safewords.

I'm so glad there are many here who take the 'safeword' or whatever you will call it seriously. I feel much better now I have seen this and I especially agree with cariads post.
If you have not been there yourself, you can't imagine how much it can damage someones life.
And yes, I am one of those girls dreaming about being raped on so many occasions. Fantasy rape should not be the same as real rape.

Thank you, you all wise kinky people here.

When I spotted this thread, I read through it, read through it again to make sure I wasn't hallucinating, and then went to talk to my sub about it. We both came to the same conclusion: bad Dom.

Now, I'm not going to rail against anyone (since it's my first day here, after all), but "objected in a safeword manner" sounds to me like she used what you knew, without a doubt, was not her normal language. She was not objecting in a vanilla way, she was objecting in a sub way. The difference to me here is that the safeword exists so that the sub DOES NOT GET INJURED. They don't use it when they just don't feel like doing something, they use those words when something has gone wrong. For it to be ignored... *sigh*

Likewise, everybody makes mistakes, and so long as you have learned from it and never treated your sub like that again -- and apologized profusely -- I think the subject can be let go. We all had to go through growing pains when we go into the lifestyle, and sometimes, mistakes are made. If we're lucky, they aren't too horrible, but some of us have to go through the bad ones, and it looks like you and your sub did.

Best wishes.

What I'd like to know is if any discussion immediately prior to that particular event went on. I mean, if he and his sub explicitly agreed that "this one time" the safe word would be disregarded to indulge her desire to experience the idea of rape or whatever, then I guess I can understand that. IF they had that specific discussion. If not, and she called out that safeword and it was ignored...wow. That's a deal breaker right there.

Poor baby girl, trying to keep us all in control. I agree, it would be good to have that specific clarification. Obviously, if it was a pre-agreed action between consenting adults, then that is entirely their choice.

Let me put this in another way, rather than answering specific posts.

For centuries, but generally changed in the western world in the latter half of the 1900's, the law has known of no such thing as "rape within the marriage". Rape was understood as the crime where a man forced a woman to whom he was not married to have sex with him. As far as I know, it was as late as in the 1990's that rape within the marriage was declared a crime in Germany.

Thus, when marrying a man, a woman forfeited any right to say no to having sex with him.

Likewise, a woman who forced a man to have sex with her did not commit rape.

Of course, battering within the marriage was made illegal decades earlier. If the forced sex within the marriage could be interpreted as battering, the man could be sentenced to prison for that crime.

Consequently, it was not long ago any husband could force his wife to have sex with him, safe word or not, by law. That was one of the contractual consequences of entering into marriage. I would assume that there are countries in the world where this is still a consequence of marriage.

Is this wrong? Who are we to judge?

Should a couple be free to agree that there is no such answer as "no" to sex within their relationship? If they should not be free to make that agreement as consenting adults, why is that?

I am not talking about battering or doing any other physical harm to a partner. If a person truly dreams about being raped by her own partner, what psycological harm can such a rape make?

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About the case in question.

The thread is called "How far do you go?" This is how far I have ever went, once. We did not have a safe word, we still don't want one. She said she thought I had gone a little too far, so I learned from that and became better at interpreting her voice, words, and body language. We have had similar sex since, never because we agree on beforehand that we will have a rape game, but because we know each other so well that we know we both often want to and can tell when the other one is not up to it.

How many people have never gone too far? My guess is none. Is it not mature to forgive and go on?

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Originally Posted by rce

Should a couple be free to agree that there is no such answer as "no" to sex within their relationship? If they should not be free to make that agreement as consenting adults, why is that?

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A couple of consenting adults should indeed have the freedom to make that decision in their relationship. But one or the other deciding without the agreement of the other? Nope, that just shouldn't be...in any form.

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The thread is called "How far do you go?" This is how far I have ever went, once. We did not have a safe word, we still don't want one. She said she thought I had gone a little too far, so I learned from that and became better at interpreting her voice, words, and body language. We have had similar sex since, never because we agree on beforehand that we will have a rape game, but because we know each other so well that we know we both often want to and can tell when the other one is not up to it.

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So you learned from it and you both decided to move on. In your case, no damage done. In another's case, that same scenario might not have turned out so wonderfully. Glad to hear you and your's are doing well. :)

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How many people have never gone too far? My guess is none.

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My husband's never gone too far. "Dammit" and "Thank God" all in the same breath.

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Is it not mature to forgive and go on?

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It sure is, as long as the offender is considered forgiveable by the offendee. If not, then unforgiven is just the way it's going to be, but the inability to forgive doesn't automatically make one immature...just human.

Thanks for the response, rce.

tessa :wave: