Thank you Annie for being the solid voice of reason.
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Thank you Annie for being the solid voice of reason.
There have been a lot of great posts on cheating: what it is and what it isn't. That being the case, I'm not going to bother throwing in my two cents -- at this point it would likely cause an avalanche of pennies.
I'm chiming in simply to say to the original poster, prehaps approach this topic with your partner without making it an issue of cheating and infidelity. As this thread clearly shows, cheating can mean different things to different people. If you and your partner get caught up in definitions and semantics, she's going to continue to focus on the fact that in her mind she didn't cheat and therefore there isn't a problem. Communicate to her that you understand she doesn't believe she cheated, but you still feel as if your feelings were compromised and that you're hurt.
Rules and definitions are fine, but relationships aren't courts -- getting out of something based on a semantic loophole isn't really winning your case when what you're trying to accomplish is building and maintaining a partnership. It's possible to be "right" and justified and win the argument, but if you cause damage to the person you're supposed to care for in the process, what have you really won? Perhaps this should be the conversation you and your partner are having.
Its cheating if you spend time and energy away from the person you are with. To play with someone online, you should spend that time and energy with the person you are with or what is the point in being with them
oh and for the people that say they are with vanilla partners , everybody can be changed it just takes time
No more fishing or golf (or any solo hobby) for you. Especially considering surveys show most men golf for no other reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by **D**
And NO friends outside of people who are friends of both. No outside interests for either of you... only those things you are both willing to do.Quote:
To play with someone online, you should spend that time and energy with the person you are with or what is the point in being with them
Huh? In that case, it's pretty presumptuous of you to presume it should be the vanilla partner who changes?Quote:
oh and for the people that say they are with vanilla partners , everybody can be changed it just takes time
lol fishing and golf are boring there are better things to waste your time on then hitting a ball with a club and trying to catch a fish with a worms
and yes freinds but cybering is not that now is it
and yes i am presumptuous life is to short
if you cant deal with what you got and you are trying to find somthing better online do it in in real life
No telephone.Quote:
Originally Posted by **D**
No mail.
Just face to face.
It's the 21st century. I'll use whatever forms of communication are available. Your apparent predjudice against modern communications as valid ways to find and interact with people as friends and possibly more is unfortunate.
Well that wasn't the point. The point was your original statement was rather narrowly defined.Quote:
Originally Posted by **D**
You say that like everyone agrees. Obviously not.Quote:
and yes freinds but cybering is not that now is it
So if it's too short, why are you suggesting I should be wasting my time trying to change someone elses lifeview?Quote:
and yes i am presumptuous life is to short
well you are trying lol
i know what you are saying about people going out to play golf and fish because they dont want to be at home with there loved one, but again these people need to get better control of there lives
i have no tecno fear lol i was saying if you are going to get online while your wife sleeps in the bedroom and cyber with a sub because u r not getting it in real life its cheating if thats what you realy want be a man about it tell the wife what you want or leave. its hard to be a dom if you are hiding your life on a computer sacred you will be caught
If I may presume... I don't think Ozme52 was saying that people golf and fish to get away from their loved ones. I think he was saying that when you said it was cheating if you spent time and energy away from your loved one(s), that was a rather broad definition. Work is spending time and energy away from loved ones. When I am online, I am not spending time with my husband. When I'm at school, I'm not spending time with my husband. When I'm with friends, when I'm doing things for me, when I'm doing a lot of things, I spend time away from him. Does that mean I'm cheating? By your definition, yes. But to me, that's how life keeps me healthy. I am not less close to him because of the things I do. I do not love him less for the time I am away, and he doesn't love me less for the time he is away, either. I think we'd be pretty sick of each other if we focused all of our energy on one another all the time, every day, with no interruption at all. (Sure, we'd get creative and it'd take a while, but still...)Quote:
Originally Posted by **D**
That being said, I still respectfully disagree with the stance that cyber/phone sex is not cheating when it's hidden from the rest of the partnership. Masturbation is one thing. Masturbating with another woman? There'd be some white-hot rage from me. It's about moving that fantasy into reality. If he sees strippers, he's not masturbating with them. They're there for money. He's there to look. But once a personal connection is made... that's betrayal. In my relationship, anyway. I liken looking at porn online to watching strippers, and having cyber/phone sex to hiring a hooker, or worse.
i understand people need to spend time away from each other there is nothing wrong with that it is the way we are but some people work a 40 hour week go to classes after school fish on a saturday church on sunday, or golf and then complane because there wife husband does not understand them they then spend the few hours they spend at home online trying to hook up with other people, that is not a heathly life lol
to get this back on subject is cyber cheating ?
ask your self this if you look forward to talking to someone online when you see them log on or phone does your heart beat faster then there is a emotion there it is cheating you are hiding your feelings form a loved one
how would you feel it you found a letter or email to your partner talking about stuff they dont want to do with you, and can i say here if you are cybering and spending time away from your partner what do you think they are doing ?
"No man on his death bed ever said, 'i wish i'd spent more time at the office' "
Good point!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aadenn
I wonder if I'll say "I wish I'd have spent more time on-line?" hmmmm
Now I have a fabulous secretary at my office ...
Oh boy, this sounds just like something my Dad would say about homosexuals.Quote:
Originally Posted by ***D***
Digressing a little here...
I'm in a very happy in a vanilla relationship r/t--he's everything I could ever want but for one thing. I'm also in a very happy in a bdsm relationship v/t. with with a man, Bragi, who is in much the same situation as me. Bragi fills a huge void in my life; a tremendous need that needs to be satisfied. I feel that together these two men make my life complete and wonderful. I truly feel that on some levels my v.t. actually enhances my r.t. relationship and maybe visa versa too. If I had to, I couldn't possibly choose between the two men because each one fills and satisfies an entirely different part of me. Bragi and I are very happy; both of our respective partners is happy although neither is aware of our online "secret", and after a decade I can't see that changing any time soon. I'm not asking, or expecting, everyone here to understand this but to perhaps just be a little more open minded and empathic towards people like me.
Is it cheating? Probably, but what's the alternative? Oh, I know what exactly what all you idealists out there will say, so please don't give me your rhetoric about "changing people" and I'll spare you the sad and unfortunate facts about why it just simply isn't that simple.
So, is it really fair to judge what is right, and what is not, here?
Oh, and DowntownAmber, spot on! Well said!
You too, Oz, you're always worth a read.
And, new1, I hope you're able to sort this out. :)
It seems to me New1, that you're asking the wrong people the wrong question- as annie pretty much said, you have to work it out yourself whether what she did is acceptable to you.
As usual, Alex, you've echoed my thoughts. Thank you for for that. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Bragi
This is a great topic to get thoughts on something I am sure most have asked them selfs one time or another. I also noticed a few replies get a bit heated.. just a reminder to play nice too.
i did not mean to judge anybody on here about what they do online or off with out there partners knowing i was just answering my point of view
and for my comment about everybody can change it takes time well i serpose that did sound a little one sided
but i have not met man or woman that breaths that if there partner asked them to go out choose them, some little lace outfit ,leather or what ever floats there boat then tells them they can tie them up and have there way with them they would not jump at the chance, i was just saying there is a spark in all of us
When you get afew Doms in a room discussing a topic like this one you will get some passonate debate...nature of the beast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Widget
D I have found nothing offensive stated here, I understand it's your opinion. I may not agree with it all but from one dom to another I respect your right to it...keep it up.
Widget we do play nice...unless we're in the dungeon weg
I am with D insofar as I don´t actually believe into vanilla people - I think everybody has hidden fantasies one way or another.
My first real relationship broke because we discovered our likings at the same time - guess what, we were both submissive and into pain, but neither of us wanted to "hurt" or dominate the other, it just felt horribly wrong. Looking for things outside the relationship was not an option - we both did not function like that (we were 19 y.o., so no long marriage or whatever was at stake, but the breakup was painful as hell nevertheless).
What I read in some other threads coming from submissive ladies who complained like hell about their vanilla hubbies learning the Dom stuff at such an agonizingly slow pace or refusing completely - I found that very heartless. Your husbands married you vanilla. How would you feel if halfway through a marriage your hubby came to you and said "become something you never were, something you might not even like to be, or else I will cheat on you or leave you, or in the best case demonstrate at every given opportunity that you do not make me happy?"
Sometimes reading those threads I have the feeling that the vanilla spouse´s feeling never get considered.
That sucks. Really. I have no way of putting this nicely.
And apart from that: I can assure whomever that if the man does not like to be a Dom, it will never ever truly satisfy the submissive - it will always feel stale and weak and not genuine, compared with the real thing.
I was lucky enough not to consider anyone vanilla as a spouse ever after that first catastrophic breakup in my life. My heart is with the ones who realized what they are only too late, and no, I don´t have a solution to their problem... What I do know is that, unlike some people might believe, BDSM is not simply a "kink" one can do without... it goes far deeper, and not getting it can make one seriously unhappy.
I would think it fair if such a half-vanilla couple would end the relationship in a non-cruel way, as this way each of the partners (!) has a chance to go and find someone that makes you truly happy, but that´s a choice one has to make for oneself.
If your partner knows what your going online its not cheating if your hiding the online cyber its cheating,that simple grins
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisYouWillDo
HA! That was gonna be my quip. Good one TY
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tojo
Oho! Look who's back. Excellent! :wave:
N.B. As forum posts tend to be atonal, please be sure there is no sarcasm intended in the above remark.
...
Cheating ......
I will say everyones defination is diffrent......it only matters what the 2 people involved think cheating is and is one opinion is far diffrent than the others then ummmm i dont know what to say to that...
Cheating can mean many things to many people....but if someone is doing it behind your back then that tell me they are not proud of it.......sure cybering doesnt fit the physical standards of cheating but they are fullfilling that physical need without being physical....its definately cheating on a emotional level......they are getting something out of it that they are not getting form their relationship.....
Ok for those compare cybering to stories magazines and dvd's.......well for one none of thsoe things are interactive for 2 the isnt another person involved in anyway 3 when was the last time someone rented a dvd and 3 months later the whole cast of porn sluts showed up at their door sayinf het you rented our dvd awhile back you wanna fuck?
so it is far diffrent that books and movies
We all draw the line in different places.
There are plenty of women, and you read about it in a variety of info sources, who still object to their spouses interacting with magazines, videos, strip bars, and all of the previously mentioned 'non-cheating' activities. They claim it's no different.
So it's a little disconcerting to see all of that kind of intolerance here at this site...
I don't mind statements like "I feel cheated when xyz happens."
No, we're seeing "It is cheating when xyz happens."
Perhaps I'm guilty of the same phraseology on other topics...
Bold added by me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozme52
This statement made me think about my responses here. I think it's safe to say that it's a problem, at the very least, if one person feels betrayed by the actions of the other person.
I also hope that when I've expressed my thoughts on this subject that it's clear that I am speaking from the position of my own relationship, and I'm pretty sure I said or agreed with someone who said that the definition of cheating is unique to each relationship. Trust is important to me, so I tend to get overly passionate about betrayal of trust, at times. If I have come across as intolerant, I hope that is only an intolerance of the harm one person can do to another, and not of lifestyle choices that are acceptable within a relationship.
The debate here has been amazing, lots of good viewpoints from both sides. I appreciate the time that each of you have spent posting and I believe that I can take something from both sides. By the by, we did finally talk, after she read through this posting, and I thought we had made some headway towards a mutual resolution, but some habits die hard and I don't think she's fully committed to our plan.
To be honest I knew nothing of this lifestyle until recently and with our without her I plan to keep learning and hopefully sharing as each of you have done with me.
Thank you,
new1
Thanks Oz- a couple of my other hangouts seem to be fizzling out, so I'll see how this place is going.
Glad to hear you guys are getting somewhere new1, let us know how it goes.
One thing I don't think I mentioned is that it's easy to forget that a D/s relationship is no different to any other- in the context that it's what two people have to work out between themselves to their mutual satisfaction.
Oh & yes I do believe online can be cheating- it depends on what sort of relationship you have, & as Radiance says:
Quote:
If your partner knows what your going online its not cheating if your hiding the online cyber its cheating,that simple grins
I too believe that the line delineating cheating depends upon the rules established by a particular couple. For example, if am in a vanilla relationship and am horny and not getting sex while my significant other is masturbating in the bathroom every night - that is cheating. He is taking something from me - from our relationship without my consent. NOTE- i had to exclude a bdsm relationship because that would be par for the course for a Dom into orgasm control - and would not be cheating - because I had consented.
Similarly, if my relationship is suffering from lack of time and attention, then yes - playing golf could be considered cheating. Because it is cheating me of needed time. However, if my relationship is solid, and playing golf eases the tensions of the week to put my significant other in a better frame of mind when we are together - it is not cheating because it is giving a benefit to the relationship rather than harming it.
fantassy
Arria, I know you're a nice lady, so I think next time maybe you might just have to try harder to put it "nicely". :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arria
As Oz pointed out, why do so many people assume that it’s the vanilla partner who must change? And, how many people do you think fear telling their partners about their kinky sides in the first place out of fear of losing them? So often for a good reason too. While bsdm is considered quite the norm, here on this forum, whether you like it or not, it’s not widely accepted in the general community. Many people still consider it sick and abnormal, many spouses, particularly women, would find it quite abhorrent. So, should a partner in that situation just simple, as it’s been suggested here on this thread, “change”?
It’s sad and most unfortunate when two peoples’ sexual wants and needs aren’t the same, but they still just happen to love one another. I reiterate it’s not a simple case of “changing” your partner and it’s not a simple matter of saying “You don’t suit my particular sexual needs, so I’m moving on..”
A relationship, particularly a sexual/love relationship is never one dimensional. We are attracted to, and love, our partners for a whole myriad of reasons. I think it’s all just too easy to be sanctimonious and judgmental when you’re lucky enough to be in a relationship that is practically everything you want and need.
Please, I'm not saying I condone cyber relationships, and I’m not condemning them either as I believe that, in this instance, it’s inappropriate for anyone to espouse an opinion on the wickedness of cyber sex as ultimately each of us must live with the consequences of the choices we make.
Good luck to you both.
VERY well said Alex... thank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Bragi
You're right Oz... it is disconcerting. Especially considering what the site is and the type of tolerance we either get or don't get and have to fight against, at times on a regular basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozme52
Amazes me how sometimes what appears to be open mindedness is actually still a very closed minded person... unless you confirm to the person making the judgments standards that is.
Is cyber cheating ?
If your Partner dont know and you think you hear a voice in your head saying I think it might be classed as cheating. then there is a good chance that IT IS !!
but hey each to there own.
How do you know she doesn't care? Is she posting in this thread and it is being missed? Or could it be that new1 is so hurt that no matter what she does/says he is looking only at his hurt and anger and discounting anything she does to show that she cares? Just because she cheated may not mean she doesn't care. As I stated before, we are hearing only ONE side of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arria
Quote:
Originally Posted by **D**
I would agree as well that everyone has hidden fantasies... BUT that doesn't mean that some will ever share those fantasies with another human being. Some people never get comfortable and secure enough with themselves to share that part. No matter what the other partner does. Therefore some will never change, at least not on that subject, based on their up bringing, social conditioning, own insecurities, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arria
I would appreciate it greatly if whoever cites me would bother to take enough time and attention to go through everything I posted in here - not only the parts they disliked. Thanks.