aligning your will to His

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To me, submission is not 'giving up my will.' It is aligning my will with the will of my Dom. In other words, what He wants, I then want. What He needs, I then need to provide. I merge my will with his.

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So wrote jeanne a couple of weeks ago in her usual perceptive way. When I read those words I was stunned to read a truth I immediately recognised but had never articulated so well.

This thread ties together a few recent posts and thoughts. Forgive me for rambling a bit but I've no idea how well they'll hang together.

You'd think submission would be easy, wouldn't you? I mean, it's what we want; we desire it, seek it, do it, love it. So why is it sometimes so hard to give yourself in submission?

I replied to a thread recently, as many did, entitled, 'When did you first know you were kinky'? I honestly considered stretching my truth a little just to fit in but I bit the bullet and admitted what was true for me - that I honestly didn't have any real knowledge or interest in submission until I was forty. Then I found the humiliation of even supposing I might be submissive a huge turn on and the rest is personal history. Couldn't I have bumped up my credentials just a bit and claimed interest in those Westerns of my childhood where the heroine gets tied to a tree and the white-hatted hero saves her? Yes, but whatever I knew about my submission I honestly didn't know until I was forty and I'm content to leave it at that.
I have a feeling, however, this makes me a 'lesser' submissive - my submissive credentials aren't as sound as young girls who played sweet self serving mummy to big strong daddy all those years ago. I don't personally think I am lesser, but sometimes submission seems to me like a competition to see who's never had a genuine vanilla moment in their lives. Was I always submissive for all those years and simply didn't know it? I don't know but if it fits the theory better, go ahead and think so. Is there anyone else like me?

And this brings me to other points frequently discussed on here. What is a submissive, how can you recognise one, what is 'true' submission? There is an orthodoxy here, I think, that easily categorises submissives as pleasing, giving, willing, (though never doormats - we can all agree about that. I pity the poor doormats - where on earth do they go?) Or, the opposite type - strong, feisty, challenging, just waiting for a Dom strong enough to tame them. Well, I don't see myself in either of those descriptions at all.

This is what I am - I wonder how many are like me?

I am competent, intelligent, friendly, nurturing, emotionally engaging, playful/serious, direct - in short, I am a modern woman. You will not find me casting my eyes coyly at the floor if I meet you. Not will I be glaring at you challengingly, daring you to tame me. I will smile at you, make a comment to put you at ease, chat, and take it from there. You might ask, well, how is a person like that submissive? Which brings me to jeanne's post.

My will is perfectly well intact and has had years of free and intelligent interaction in the modern world. So has my pride. But there is something within me that responds to the idea of submitting my will and pride to the desires of another. It's not a soft malleability in me or the fling of a gauntlet. It's an honest desire to 'align my will to the will of another'. It's not even primarily sexual any more, or more exactly, not primarily genital. At the beginning, you think that's what it must be all about really. But I, like many others I'm sure, am increasingly discovering how submission subsumes the whole person, and that increasingly sure knowledge/feeling is what convinces me I am a 'true' submissive and not just toying with my own desires.

And I hope you see from how I've described my situation, that I may desire to submit but it's not always easy to do. I can no sooner abandon my will than I can fly. My independent pride is soundly ingrained in me (do 'natural' born submissives have less of it??) So I must, as jeanne says, 'align' that will to that of my Master. I can do nothing else with it. And I can only offer him my pride to break down; and find new solace in the pride of being willing and obedient and submissive to him instead of being proud of the desires I have that actually block his access to them. It's a tremendous gift for me to give (I say that with 'pride') and for him to use as he wishes, and I want to give it.

One more thread reference - when I don't give my Master what he wants, when I don't or can't align myself to his wishes, it's not because I want some pleasure that he's deliberately withholding and I think I should have it. ('What makes a rubbish sub' - my own thread!) Yes, there are practices I prefer but I am learning it's up to my Master to bestow them or not. I am not the perfect sub though it's meaningless to say out of the context of a particular relationship. I know I would not suit many on here, or they me, but that's fine. When I am not aligning my will to his, I honestly believe it's because my independent pride has got in the way of telling him clearly and directly what's blocking me. To be fair, I don't always know myself why this happens exactly. I just feel the block and it sticks as little stabs of resentment or self pity. (Another thread, 'As a sub, how to say no respectfully'). Boy, I gave great advice in that one! Withholding as a form of disobedience, as Leo9 pointed out. Pride. Pride. Letting yourself go, letting him see your naked vulnerability - you know, the side of you you never let anyone see? How hard it is. Submission guarantees the desire but in no way the ability.

I know my Master understands me. He understands my difficulties. He loves the idea of having this confident 21st Cen. woman grovelling at his feet. I love and desire that too.

I just have to let him keep chipping away at that pride so I can 'merge my will with His.'

Thanks for understanding, as I know you do.

Pearlgem x x

Beautifully put, Pearlgem.

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Originally Posted by Pearlgem

I replied to a thread recently, as many did, entitled, 'When did you first know you were kinky'? I honestly considered stretching my truth a little just to fit in but I bit the bullet and admitted what was true for me - that I honestly didn't have any real knowledge or interest in submission until I was forty. Then I found the humiliation of even supposing I might be submissive a huge turn on and the rest is personal history. Couldn't I have bumped up my credentials just a bit and claimed interest in those Westerns of my childhood where the heroine gets tied to a tree and the white-hatted hero saves her? Yes, but whatever I knew about my submission I honestly didn't know until I was forty and I'm content to leave it at that.
I have a feeling, however, this makes me a 'lesser' submissive - my submissive credentials aren't as sound as young girls who played sweet self serving mummy to big strong daddy all those years ago. I don't personally think I am lesser, but sometimes submission seems to me like a competition to see who's never had a genuine vanilla moment in their lives. Was I always submissive for all those years and simply didn't know it? I don't know but if it fits the theory better, go ahead and think so. Is there anyone else like me?

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It was only after my divorce that I discovered my submission, I was 37. I often think to myself that I am lesser then others, (I have so much to learn about myself that those who discovered themselves years earlier have already learned). I know in my heart that this is not true, I am no less submissive than they are, just newer. I look back on my life knowing that it was always there, it has always been who I am, I just didn't know it.

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Originally Posted by Pearlgem

And this brings me to other points frequently discussed on here. What is a submissive, how can you recognise one, what is 'true' submission? There is an orthodoxy here, I think, that easily categorises submissives as pleasing, giving, willing, (though never doormats - we can all agree about that. I pity the poor doormats - where on earth do they go?) Or, the opposite type - strong, feisty, challenging, just waiting for a Dom strong enough to tame them. Well, I don't see myself in either of those descriptions at all.

This is what I am - I wonder how many are like me?

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*raises a hand* I don't see myself in either description either, I am who I am, not a doormat and not a challenge. I'm not sure the words to describe how I do see myself, my Master tells me I am a natural sub, a good girl who always tries her best but yet in my opinion just feisty enough that I will not be stepped on.

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Originally Posted by Pearlgem

I am competent, intelligent, friendly, nurturing, emotionally engaging, playful/serious, direct - in short, I am a modern woman. You will not find me casting my eyes coyly at the floor if I meet you. Not will I be glaring at you challengingly, daring you to tame me. I will smile at you, make a comment to put you at ease, chat, and take it from there. You might ask, well, how is a person like that submissive? Which brings me to jeanne's post.

My will is perfectly well intact and has had years of free and intelligent interaction in the modern world. So has my pride. But there is something within me that responds to the idea of submitting my will and pride to the desires of another. It's not a soft malleability in me or the fling of a gauntlet. It's an honest desire to 'align my will to the will of another'. It's not even primarily sexual any more, or more exactly, not primarily genital. At the beginning, you think that's what it must be all about really. But I, like many others I'm sure, am increasingly discovering how submission subsumes the whole person, and that increasingly sure knowledge/feeling is what convinces me I am a 'true' submissive and not just toying with my own desires.

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It's an amazing realization to see just how deep those desires run, to feel the need to belong to someone not only in body but also in mind and spirit.

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Originally Posted by Pearlgem

And I hope you see from how I've described my situation, that I may desire to submit but it's not always easy to do. I can no sooner abandon my will than I can fly. My independent pride is soundly ingrained in me (do 'natural' born submissives have less of it??) So I must, as jeanne says, 'align' that will to that of my Master. I can do nothing else with it. And I can only offer him my pride to break down; and find new solace in the pride of being willing and obedient and submissive to him instead of being proud of the desires I have that actually block his access to them. It's a tremendous gift for me to give (I say that with 'pride') and for him to use as he wishes, and I want to give it.

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I think those are key words "submissive to him" I have no desire to submit to just anyone, but have always wanted to give all of myself to the one special man in my life at any given time. This, in my opinion, is where the word natural comes into play, I have always felt this way, I wish I had known this years ago, it would have saved me from past relationships that only left me frustrated. Until now I had never met a man who knew what to do with the gift I was trying to give, until now I had never met a real Master.

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Originally Posted by Pearlgem

One more thread reference - when I don't give my Master what he wants, when I don't or can't align myself to his wishes, it's not because I want some pleasure that he's deliberately withholding and I think I should have it. ('What makes a rubbish sub' - my own thread!) Yes, there are practices I prefer but I am learning it's up to my Master to bestow them or not. I am not the perfect sub though it's meaningless to say out of the context of a particular relationship. I know I would not suit many on here, or they me, but that's fine. When I am not aligning my will to his, I honestly believe it's because my independent pride has got in the way of telling him clearly and directly what's blocking me. To be fair, I don't always know myself why this happens exactly. I just feel the block and it sticks as little stabs of resentment or self pity. (Another thread, 'As a sub, how to say no respectfully'). Boy, I gave great advice in that one! Withholding as a form of disobedience, as Leo9 pointed out. Pride. Pride. Letting yourself go, letting him see your naked vulnerability - you know, the side of you you never let anyone see? How hard it is. Submission guarantees the desire but in no way the ability.

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I think this sums up the learning process very nicely and learning isn't always easy.

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Originally Posted by Pearlgem

I know my Master understands me. He understands my difficulties. He loves the idea of having this confident 21st Cen. woman grovelling at his feet. I love and desire that too.

I just have to let him keep chipping away at that pride so I can 'merge my will with His.'

Thanks for understanding, as I know you do.

Pearlgem x x

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This is why you chose him to give yourself to is it not? Because he does understand you.

Best of luck and thank you for an excellent, thought provoking thread from someone who is very much like you.

Thank you so much, good_girl. I very much appreciate your response and your understanding. x x

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Originally Posted by Pearlgem

I replied to a thread recently, as many did, entitled, 'When did you first know you were kinky'? I honestly considered stretching my truth a little just to fit in but I bit the bullet and admitted what was true for me - that I honestly didn't have any real knowledge or interest in submission until I was forty... whatever I knew about my submission I honestly didn't know until I was forty and I'm content to leave it at that...Is there anyone else like me?

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Although I'm not 40 yet, my submission is also a recent thing, completely unexpected & totally at odds with who I am & unlike the other stories posted in the thread mentioned above where everyone seemed to know their tendencies since childhood. I don't think this makes me any less but rather speaks to my physical & mental strength that it took so long for a dominant enough man to come along & teach me that I can't always be in control & that it can be very good to submit to the right person. I like being independent, as it sounds like you are, making my own decisions & way in life. But I accept that there's a part of me that likes being submissive, taking direction from & wanting to give of myself to the right type of dominant.

Thanks, Stormkat. See, we're starting to come out of the closet!

We should start a club...30 something subs LOL

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Originally Posted by Pearlgem

Was I always submissive for all those years and simply didn't know it? I don't know but if it fits the theory better, go ahead and think so. Is there anyone else like me?

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For most of my life, I was pretty inexperienced sexually compared to other people my age, and didn't even know I was kinky until I was in my early 30s. I'm 37 now.

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Originally Posted by Pearlgem

My will is perfectly well intact and has had years of free and intelligent interaction in the modern world. So has my pride. But there is something within me that responds to the idea of submitting my will and pride to the desires of another. It's not a soft malleability in me or the fling of a gauntlet. It's an honest desire to 'align my will to the will of another'. It's not even primarily sexual any more, or more exactly, not primarily genital. At the beginning, you think that's what it must be all about really. But I, like many others I'm sure, am increasingly discovering how submission subsumes the whole person, and that increasingly sure knowledge/feeling is what convinces me I am a 'true' submissive and not just toying with my own desires.

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I can relate to this. My Owner/spouse and I have been discussing the nature of my submission for some time. I've ID'd as a switch for several years, but I am beginning to question my status as such, since my desire to dominate pretty much ends at the bedroom door while my desire to submit permeates my whole life. I am very service-oriented (I'm a clergyperson and counselor in my "day job" and I perform many of our communal household's domestic tasks) and I'm starting to understand that submission is far more integral to my real nature than the occasional desire to tie up someone and flog them for fun.

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Originally Posted by Pearlgem

And I can only offer him my pride to break down; and find new solace in the pride of being willing and obedient and submissive to him instead of being proud of the desires I have that actually block his access to them. It's a tremendous gift for me to give (I say that with 'pride') and for him to use as he wishes, and I want to give it.

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That is a lovely way of putting it. And yes, it is a gift. I have heard other Masters/Dom(mes) speak of it in this way when talking of their own slaves/subs.

I'm fortunate that my Owner is very understanding. While I have always been submissive to him, even when we first started seeing each other, there have been times when I've wrongly assumed that I knew what He wanted or needed instead of letting Him direct me. Sometimes I've even blamed myself for not doing what I thought He wanted of me, when really He never expected it at all. Part of this was bad communication early on, but part of it was due to insecurity about supposedly not being good enough for him. It took me a while to understand that I'm not the one who ought to be making that judgment.

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Originally Posted by Pearlgem

I know my Master understands me. He understands my difficulties. He loves the idea of having this confident 21st Cen. woman grovelling at his feet. I love and desire that too.

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It makes me happy that my Owner values me as a creative, intelligent, talented individual who just happens to be his property and at his disposal. Like you, I have to let my Owner break down the barriers of insecurity and ego that keep my will from aligning with his. I want that very much, too.

And I second the idea of a 30+ support group for those of us who came later to the game :)

I have a question, though. Some of us have discussed how much some Dom/mes like it when something is hard for us and we do it anyway. So what happens, hypothetically, when those wills ARE perfectly aligned? Does it get boring?

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Originally Posted by rachel06

I have a question, though. Some of us have discussed how much some Dom/mes like it when something is hard for us and we do it anyway. So what happens, hypothetically, when those wills ARE perfectly aligned? Does it get boring?

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The answer is yes, hypothetically. I can't believe I used to worry about this in the early days of my relationship. ''But Master, what if I never do anything you have to punish me for?" Those words should be tattooed on my backside! It just isn't possible!

In my relationship, we have little golden nuggets of interaction that seemed to us almost perfect. I was able to surrender, he got just what he wanted and we connected deeply and satisfyingly. These memories give me great pleasure and something to strive for that I know I can achieve again. But we are talking about real people here so it won't happen like this all the time and even if it did, he would then demand more. It's what Doms do, the bastards, never letting you rest on your laurels, always wanting more. I may be more distracted one day, not allowing him to orchestrate me in the way he would wish; what I achieve one day may be lessened or lost the next as different emotional conditions interplay - it's all in the mind and the vagaries of real humans interacting with each other. It's just not possible to be real in this world and perfect in the BDSM one. I find submission a letting go, yes, but it can take extraordinary effort on my part to do that. It's not for the faint hearted. To focus on him I have to work very hard, and bravely sometimes, to keep myself out.

Perhaps a better way of putting it would be to say I bring not my will but my willingness to please to him. I am sometimes not willing, to be honest (in little ways, little blocks I mean.) If I bring my genuine willingness and work hard to keep it focused on him, I can't actually fail, 'gold standard performance' or no. It's all he wants.

Thanks, Mothra!!! I appreciate what you're sharing. x x

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Originally Posted by Mothra!!!

I'm fortunate that my Owner is very understanding. While I have always been submissive to him, even when we first started seeing each other, there have been times when I've wrongly assumed that I knew what He wanted or needed instead of letting Him direct me. Sometimes I've even blamed myself for not doing what I thought He wanted of me, when really He never expected it at all. Part of this was bad communication early on, but part of it was due to insecurity about supposedly not being good enough for him. It took me a while to understand that I'm not the one who ought to be making that judgment.

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I like this and can relate to it. Rather than romping through 'practices', I've found we can reenact and discuss endlessly the same basic dynamics: my submission, his Domination. Over years we can do this and never get tired of it. Newer facets present themselves but there is never an end point, no more to say. It is always fascinating to us.

I am an incredibly slow learner in many ways. I need to have the same knowledge reinforced time and again before I've really got it and it's ingrained into my responses, counteracting always-insistent vanilla 'common sense' whispering in my ear. The same with my understanding of myself and him. I certainly assumed many things that did not come from him but only from my idea of what he must want. These misconceptions all have to be patiently untangled and corrected. I get cross and judgmental and resentful and fed up but I've realised it's actually with myself, not him. All I ever need to do is come to him, tell him. He can't fix what I won't tell him about. He does fix me and I've learned to trust his judgement. It seems counter intuitive in a relationship to say, 'Reveal, not your best, but your worst,' but in a BDSM one, he has to see your insecurities.

I can find parts of myself in almost every response in this thread. I did not even know what BDSM was until a year ago and I'm 47. I met a dom online and he introduced me to my submissive self. He also encourages and pushes me to constantly be learning about the lifestyle and about myself. I have to say my entire life has been a struggle, right from childhood when i was always in survival mode. I did recognize a few years ago that i was sick of trying to survive on my own and started looking for a man who was stronger and could handle me. I am an educated, workaholic, who is head strong, opinionated, a self-starter and can do anything i need to get done, by myself. How does that sound for a submissive? Although, when i met this dom online, something inside of me opened up, changed. When we talk on the phone my voice automatically softens.....my whole demeanor changes. That was not something he asked for it just is.

So yes......i am submissive.......i am learning constantly.......and i am an 'old' newbie. Looks like I've found my group. I love this thread....by the way.

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Originally Posted by usbabe

I can find parts of myself in almost every response in this thread. I did not even know what BDSM was until a year ago and I'm 47. I met a dom online and he introduced me to my submissive self. He also encourages and pushes me to constantly be learning about the lifestyle and about myself. I have to say my entire life has been a struggle, right from childhood when i was always in survival mode. I did recognize a few years ago that i was sick of trying to survive on my own and started looking for a man who was stronger and could handle me. I am an educated, workaholic, who is head strong, opinionated, a self-starter and can do anything i need to get done, by myself. How does that sound for a submissive? Although, when i met this dom online, something inside of me opened up, changed. When we talk on the phone my voice automatically softens.....my whole demeanor changes. That was not something he asked for it just is.

So yes......i am submissive.......i am learning constantly.......and i am an 'old' newbie. Looks like I've found my group. I love this thread....by the way.

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This was me, I had heard of BDSM but only considered the sm part of it, the part that is still not for me. Like so many people, until I was exposed to it I honestly thought it to be something only freaks would do, not normal everyday people...or maybe I'm just a freak now LOL

I had never considered myself someone who needs a man in her life, I'm strong, a survivor who can do just fine on her own...but doesn't want to, I have a lot to give but only to the right one.

Cheers to the "old newbies :yahoo:

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Originally Posted by usbabe

I can find parts of myself in almost every response in this thread. I did not even know what BDSM was until a year ago and I'm 47. I met a dom online and he introduced me to my submissive self. He also encourages and pushes me to constantly be learning about the lifestyle and about myself. I have to say my entire life has been a struggle, right from childhood when i was always in survival mode. I did recognize a few years ago that i was sick of trying to survive on my own and started looking for a man who was stronger and could handle me. I am an educated, workaholic, who is head strong, opinionated, a self-starter and can do anything i need to get done, by myself. How does that sound for a submissive? Although, when i met this dom online, something inside of me opened up, changed. When we talk on the phone my voice automatically softens.....my whole demeanor changes. That was not something he asked for it just is.

So yes......i am submissive.......i am learning constantly.......and i am an 'old' newbie. Looks like I've found my group. I love this thread....by the way.

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Thanks, usbabe. I know what you mean about the voice. Mine definitely rises and softens when I'm in submissive mode with my Master. I can't help it, I'm responding naturally to the dynamics of the power exchange.


I am enjoying very much the tales of older women/late-on subs, and something about us has occurred to me. I said earlier that late to BDSM subs might be seen as 'lesser' in some way - that 'proper' submission is ingrained and shows itself early, as post after post here seems to attest. But consider - we older women have had many years of vanilla relationships/vanilla sex, so when we come across BDSM, we know the difference. And for us to come to terms with submission under those ingrained circumstances, accept it in ourselves, make those tentative, sometimes shocking, steps towards what we somehow find we need within ourselves...don't you think that's a profound and wonderful thing? The need must be deep to effect such a change. How fascinating a sub like that!

I think today's generations are terribly spoiled, lol...for me there was always an unconscious "awareness" of needing, of searching for something, for this...so when I heard the word "spanking" for the first time and that made something inside of me go click...and then when even that wasn't enough and I kept searching for something "more", and I heard words "BDSM"....all I had to do was go to my computer, log onto Internet and Google away ...and know that I am not the only one and that if so many people do it....

One of the greatest misconceptions about submissives, and I would dare say the leading reason why we don't tell more people in our "vanilla" life, is that submissives are "weak". *sort*

For a long time I have had the same thought myself, I admit...but then I came to realize it depends on your definition of need. Just because I don't need him, doesn't mean I don't need him. When did need become such a dirty word? We are human, it is part of all of ours nature to need human contact...what we are not is desperate, and for some reason two are often considered synonyms.

As for someone thinking less of "older" submissives *ggl*, it never even occurred to me...age is a state of spirit:

It's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln

We do not grow absolutely, chronologically. We grow sometimes in one dimension, and not in another; unevenly. We grow partially. We are relative. We are mature in one realm, childish in another. The past, present, and future mingle and pull us backward, forward, or fix us in the present. We are made up of layers, cells, constellations. Anaïs Nin


You rock, ladies!!!

Pearlgem, I am going to apologize in advance: I'm sitting in bed, cup of cocoa in hand (the kind with the tiny marshmallows floating in it, even), and I've really nothing to do for several hours. These conditions are prime for a Downtown Amber rambling response.

We could be here for awhile... ;)

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Originally Posted by Pearlgem

You'd think submission would be easy, wouldn't you? I mean, it's what we want; we desire it, seek it, do it, love it. So why is it sometimes so hard to give yourself in submission?

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I am not sure when submission (or dominant tendencies, for that matter) became an all-encompassing and over-arcing state of being, permeating each and every aspect of our lives and relationships. Though submission may be craved, may be needed for the completion of our happiness in certain relationships, it simply doesn't exist in every situation or exchange.

Submission, for me, is a chemical reaction. Put oil and a spark together, you're going to get a fire that will burn on and on under the right conditions. That's the goal - a good hot flame that flares up or tones down, but still provides the warmth we require.

That doesn't happen unless the proper reactants and catalysts exist on both sides, and that surrounding conditions allow for the reaction to occur. The fact that we are submissive simply doesn't trump all other reality.

You're right, it IS hard, sometimes... Think of it this way: not only am I a submissive person, but people might go so far as to say I am a kind person as well, to pick a adjective out of a hat. I like to be kind to people, I want to, I need to be that type of person to feel as if I am living my life how I want to. But I have bad days, days where I simply don't want to see other people, much less be nice. There are also people, like the guy screaming at his kid yesterday in the drive-thru) that do not even remotely trigger the kind Amber in me, in fact, guys like that manage to quash it. Why should submission be any different?

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Originally Posted by Pearlgem

Couldn't I have bumped up my credentials just a bit and claimed interest in those Westerns of my childhood where the heroine gets tied to a tree and the white-hatted hero saves her? Yes, but whatever I knew about my submission I honestly didn't know until I was forty and I'm content to leave it at that.
I have a feeling, however, this makes me a 'lesser' submissive - my submissive credentials aren't as sound as young girls who played sweet self serving mummy to big strong daddy all those years ago. I don't personally think I am lesser, but sometimes submission seems to me like a competition to see who's never had a genuine vanilla moment in their lives. Was I always submissive for all those years and simply didn't know it? I don't know but if it fits the theory better, go ahead and think so. Is there anyone else like me?

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God I certainly hope I've had at least the occasional vanilla moment in my life...lol Can I back out of this uber sub competition please? Frankly, it scares me.

Pearlgem, if we all were exactly what we were supposed to be at puberty, then why bother having a life? We live and we grow based on a mix of who we are and what we see and do - submission, it seems, wasn't important to you or needed in your life before now. No big deal. Is a girl that had a baby at 18 a more natural and true or better mother than one who started at 30?

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Originally Posted by Pearlgem

And this brings me to other points frequently discussed on here. What is a submissive, how can you recognize one, what is 'true' submission? There is an orthodoxy here, I think, that easily categorizes submissives as pleasing, giving, willing, (though never doormats - we can all agree about that. I pity the poor doormats - where on earth do they go?) Or, the opposite type - strong, feisty, challenging, just waiting for a Dom strong enough to tame them. Well, I don't see myself in either of those descriptions at all.

This is what I am - I wonder how many are like me?

I am competent, intelligent, friendly, nurturing, emotionally engaging, playful/serious, direct - in short, I am a modern woman. You will not find me casting my eyes coyly at the floor if I meet you. Not will I be glaring at you challengingly, daring you to tame me. I will smile at you, make a comment to put you at ease, chat, and take it from there. You might ask, well, how is a person like that submissive? Which brings me to jeanne's post.

My will is perfectly well intact and has had years of free and intelligent interaction in the modern world. So has my pride. But there is something within me that responds to the idea of submitting my will and pride to the desires of another. It's not a soft malleability in me or the fling of a gauntlet. It's an honest desire to 'align my will to the will of another'. It's not even primarily sexual any more, or more exactly, not primarily genital. At the beginning, you think that's what it must be all about really. But I, like many others I'm sure, am increasingly discovering how submission subsumes the whole person, and that increasingly sure knowledge/feeling is what convinces me I am a 'true' submissive and not just toying with my own desires.

And I hope you see from how I've described my situation, that I may desire to submit but it's not always easy to do. I can no sooner abandon my will than I can fly. My independent pride is soundly ingrained in me (do 'natural' born submissives have less of it??) So I must, as jeanne says, 'align' that will to that of my Master. I can do nothing else with it. And I can only offer him my pride to break down; and find new solace in the pride of being willing and obedient and submissive to him instead of being proud of the desires I have that actually block his access to them. It's a tremendous gift for me to give (I say that with 'pride') and for him to use as he wishes, and I want to give it.

One more thread reference - when I don't give my Master what he wants, when I don't or can't align myself to his wishes, it's not because I want some pleasure that he's deliberately withholding and I think I should have it. ('What makes a rubbish sub' - my own thread!) Yes, there are practices I prefer but I am learning it's up to my Master to bestow them or not. I am not the perfect sub though it's meaningless to say out of the context of a particular relationship. I know I would not suit many on here, or they me, but that's fine. When I am not aligning my will to his, I honestly believe it's because my independent pride has got in the way of telling him clearly and directly what's blocking me. To be fair, I don't always know myself why this happens exactly. I just feel the block and it sticks as little stabs of resentment or self pity. (Another thread, 'As a sub, how to say no respectfully'). Boy, I gave great advice in that one! Withholding as a form of disobedience, as Leo9 pointed out. Pride. Pride. Letting yourself go, letting him see your naked vulnerability - you know, the side of you you never let anyone see? How hard it is. Submission guarantees the desire but in no way the ability.

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Hmm. I had seventeen really good replies to this, but it simply comes down to this for me: as we as submissives align our will, so do the Doms to us. We travel paths as people, like rivers flowing. We flow where obstacles dictate at times, at others we cut and erode our own way through the landscape. And sometimes, sometimes we merge to flow with another.

The D/s exchange boils down to me choosing a man I wish to posses me, not just the choice to be possessed for the sake of it. He chooses me for the sake of me, not just to posses. As multi-textured people of depth, not each and every facet of our relationships will always fit perfectly and that's really really okay. In fact, it's not just really okay, it's simply "real."

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Originally Posted by DowntownAmber

Though submission may be craved, may be needed for the completion of our happiness in certain relationships, it simply doesn't exist in every situation or exchange...That doesn't happen unless the proper reactants and catalysts exist on both sides, and that surrounding conditions allow for the reaction to occur. The fact that we are submissive simply doesn't trump all other reality.

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Amber, I think you really nailed it for me with your post!

Yes, there are times I do have submissive cravings - ones I still don't understand where they came from 'cause there weren't any of the childhood or young adulthood indicators that so many here seem to have had. It's not something I went looking for or felt was lacking in my life before I stumbled into a situation where I was very clearly not in control. Denying those cravings exist, however, would be pointless self-delusion.

But to your point, it does very definitely take the right circumstances to bring those cravings to light, to put me into the frame of mind where I'm willing and even want to submit. In almost every aspect of my life, I'm very much in charge, living life on my own terms, independently. In most of my relationships, I'm the dominant partner. But with the right man & the right situation, giving myself to him can be like the coolest thing ever.

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Originally Posted by damyanti

For a long time I have had the same thought myself, I admit...but then I came to realize it depends on your definition of need. Just because I don't need him, doesn't mean I don't need him. When did need become such a dirty word? We are human, it is part of all of ours nature to need human contact...what we are not is desperate, and for some reason two are often considered synonyms.

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Damyanti, OMG, excellent point here!

I've always avoided "needing" anything except like food or water or sleep, viewing need in the junkie sense, an addiction. I'm perfectly comfortable with wanting, jonesing, even craving something, but crossing the line into "need" was unacceptable. Maybe need isn't such a dirty word as long as it's seperate from desperation...

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Originally Posted by DowntownAmber

Pearlgem, I am going to apologize in advance: I'm sitting in bed, cup of cocoa in hand (the kind with the tiny marshmallows floating in it, even), and I've really nothing to do for several hours. These conditions are prime for a Downtown Amber rambling response. We could be here for awhile... ;)

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Mmm...Budge up and share a few sips.

You certainly nailed a lot here in your usual brilliant Downtown way, Amber.

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Submission, for me, is a chemical reaction. Put oil and a spark together, you're going to get a fire that will burn on and on under the right conditions. That's the goal - a good hot flame that flares up or tones down, but still provides the warmth we require.

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This is a wonderful, illuminating metaphor, in my opinion.

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That doesn't happen unless the proper reactants and catalysts exist on both sides, and that surrounding conditions allow for the reaction to occur. The fact that we are submissive simply doesn't trump all other reality.

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I would absolutely agree with you here, Amber, and that's the way I want it. But we are submissive even without a Dom so it's also something inside us and not just what we do. Being on here has taught me a little about other approaches to BDSM. Many are very into play/BDSM practices and although they may be ultimately looking for 'The One', they'll happily act out BDSM dynamics in dungeons and whatnot. Honestly I don't think that'll ever be for me, although I don't judge others. BDSM only makes sense to me because I've found someone significant to be submissive to. I would not stop feeling submissive inside myself if I didn't have this relationship, but vanilla life, as it always did and does, would go on regardless.

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God I certainly hope I've had at least the occasional vanilla moment in my life...lol Can I back out of this uber sub competition please? Frankly, it scares me.

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Lol, sure, as long as we agree that older, latecoming subs are wonderful too, let's leave it at that!

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Hmm. I had seventeen really good replies to this, but it simply comes down to this for me: as we as submissives align our will, so do the Doms to us. We travel paths as people, like rivers flowing. We flow where obstacles dictate at times, at others we cut and erode our own way through the landscape. And sometimes, sometimes we merge to flow with another.

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Lovely. You have such a way with words, Amber, and great wisdom.

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The D/s exchange boils down to me choosing a man I wish to posses me, not just the choice to be possessed for the sake of it. He chooses me for the sake of me, not just to posses. As multi-textured people of depth, not each and every facet of our relationships will always fit perfectly and that's really really okay. In fact, it's not just really okay, it's simply "real."

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That's exactly what I strive for, Amber. Thank you. I wish us both good luck and happiness. x x

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Originally Posted by damyanti

One of the greatest misconceptions about submissives, and I would dare say the leading reason why we don't tell more people in our "vanilla" life, is that submissives are "weak". *snort*

For a long time I have had the same thought myself, I admit...but then I came to realize it depends on your definition of need. Just because I don't need him, doesn't mean I don't need him. When did need become such a dirty word? We are human, it is part of all of ours nature to need human contact...what we are not is desperate, and for some reason two are often considered synonyms.

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Brilliant thoughts here, damyanti. I would have denied a lot of needs when I was younger, seeing them as weaknesses that should not be exposed, but I've learned as I got older the nature of need and not to be so hard on myself. It's a graceful gift to offer the real you to others and of course subs and Doms (and all the rest of us) need each other.

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As for someone thinking less of "older" submissives *ggl*, it never even occurred to me...age is a state of spirit:

It's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln

We do not grow absolutely, chronologically. We grow sometimes in one dimension, and not in another; unevenly. We grow partially. We are relative. We are mature in one realm, childish in another. The past, present, and future mingle and pull us backward, forward, or fix us in the present. We are made up of layers, cells, constellations. Anaïs Nin
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You rock, ladies!!!

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I reckon I was a late developer in many ways but that's okay, it was right for me. I wonder when I'll feel fully grown up? I'm addicted to Guitar Hero!

To quote Madeleine Albright, "I was a late starter, but that's why I made an effort to catch up on what I had missed...it took me twenty-five years to, in the end, succeed over night".

When I first came here...it was a shock on my system. I had years of researching BDSM behind me, but this was my first direct contact with "real" people, and foolishly I wrote that into my profile and some took that to mean I was free game...I got a LOT of unsolicited "schooling" about everything I did "wrong", how wrong I was, how I wasn't true submissive...basically a lot of talking down to and attempts to recruit me into different BDSM "cliques" and philosophies....part of it was my fault because I expected BDSM'ers to be more liberal (today that makes me LMAO :D) so I had made myself vulnerable.
Anyway, I toughened up (thanks to some wonderful friends I made here) and I don't let things bother me...actually they simply don't anymore...and I think that comes from meeting someone who shares and understands my philosophy...it was comforting to meet a normal guy (who just happens to be a brilliant Dom, *wg*) and even if things don't work out for us, he has become one of my dearest friends.

My point being (yes, I actually have one, sorry for rambling LOL)...for me this is no longer about exploring BDSM (i.e. trying to find "the way"), it is about exploring myself. BDSM is an individual journey, its about the distance traveled more then it is about how you "stack up" to someone else.

Personally, the older I get the younger I feel. (long story behind that, LOL)...and why I find your stories and this thread so inspirational.

Another thing is...40, 50, 60, even 70 is not the same as it was for our grandparents or parents. We live differently, we live in a different social climate, we age differently....so you are exactly where you need to be. What is grown up anyway?

Einstein in a letter to Otto Juliusburger wrote: "People like you and I, though mortal of course like everyone else, do not grow old no matter how long we live...[We] never cease to stand like curious children before the great mystery into which we were born." Perhaps we are the same in regards to BDSM.

Or as good old Coco (Chanel) used to say, "A woman has the age she deserves."

Though my favorite must be (yep, I have a one track mind ;)): Pearl S. Buck, "You can judge your age by the amount of pain you feel when you come in contact with a new idea." I mean really,...*ggl*.

Thank you for this thread, Pearlgem. I have been feeling these urges for a while now, but only within the last year had a place (and person) in which I felt comfortable communicating them and actually acting on them. I'm 34. :)

I'm fascinated by the idea of being competitive with other subs. I didn't know that this was going on. I don't necessarily feel that (maybe I'm not reading all the threads?) but what I DO feel when I read other posts is more "Wow! She did that? I wanna do that, too!" LOL Not for the competition, but for the experience, if you see what I mean. Being fairly new, and living 4 hours away from my Dom, I haven't had nearly as many experiences as I'd like. ;)

Thank you again, I've really enjoyed everyone's responses. :rose:

When subs get into that "I'm a slave and you're a bottom so I'm more real than you," or, "I was born with a silver tray in my hand, ready to serve coffee," I don't think it's really meant as a reflection on you as much as a statement of who they are. I think they're saying, this isn't a changeable attribute of myself such as haircolor, that could alter but I'd be the same person. This is so much a part of who I am that I can't begin to imagine being any different, ever. I get this some in my religion - there's a fair amount of comparing and judging who's better/more dedicated/more fanatical/more zealous in observance, and again, I've come to realize that all that means is, this is very important to me and I can't imagine doing it any other way.

So maybe take some of this "competition" with a grain of salt. I suppose it would be great to be that sure of yourself (*whispers* - if they were THAT sure would they need to be so hard-assed about it?) but some of us like to entertain ambiguities. Maybe, like religious observance, if you come to it when you're older it's never quite as ingrained as it would be if you'd grown up with it, but you also know that you've examined things clearly and that your choices really reflect your own situation and your own needs.

An excellent point, rachel! I've found this to be true in many who begin studying Wicca as well. We call it "Witchier than Thou". ;) It tends to wear off after a few years.

I try to take a Taoist approach about this type of thing: "Those who know do not speak and those who speak do not know." ~ Lao Tzu

Gee, I know this is a sub- dominoated thread, but I have got to put my 2 cents in.

I think it is funny. when lisa told me about this thread, I had one thought. the sub who is worrying if she is the most "Subbish"- the ones that want to tell you how subby they are, how much better they are- they have missed very important thing- there is no one who's opniion should matter other than their dom's. If they were really a total slave, they would most likley not have time or inclination to post here about it, right?

Besides- each couple is different. does the Dom want a total slave, someone without a spark of defiance, or a firery Brat? no two doms are alike, so no to "perfect" subs would be the same.

Some things are not really about Pride though, but are instead Assertivesness. My assertiveness in my experience is what is the difference between myself and being or becomming a doormat. Nothing I want to be when I grow up.

I don't believe pride has a place in this Style of relating. Or should in any LoveShip. But that is me and my perception and experience with Loving. Nothing will keep one from Loving and Committing Fully, as will pride ime.

Respectfully~SidheWolf

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Originally Posted by damyanti

One of the greatest misconceptions about submissives, and I would dare say the leading reason why we don't tell more people in our "vanilla" life, is that submissives are "weak".

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This got me thinking about something my Owner and I have been discussing for a while now.

The popular conception in the vanilla world does seem to be, unfortunately, that submission = being exploited by someone who's a hardass because you are weak, and domination = getting your way all the time by exploiting someone weaker than you because you are a hardass. Or you've got people thinking that subs are all childish wimps who won't act like adults, and doms are all selfish bullies :rolleyes: This is what I believe, however:

A submissive needs a great deal of maturity and courage to build the kind of trust necessary to align his/her will with that of the Dom(me). Weak people generally lack both maturity and courage, IMO, and I try to emphasize when talking to vanilla friends that for me, it's about willingly choosing to submit out of love, respect, a desire to serve, and trust that my beloved Owner will maximize my talents and strengths to their fullest extent. I am doing it from a place of strength -- belief in myself as a useful sub, and belief in him as a capable Dom. And he and I both agree that willing submission from someone who is strong is a hell of a lot more valuable than halfassed submission from someone who has no backbone to speak of.

On the other side of things, a Dom(me) must also be mature and courageous enough not only to direct and govern another human being's will, but to take responsibility for the sub's welfare and their personal, possibly spiritual growth as well. This is also not a job for weak, selfish people, and besides, unhappy subs whose needs aren't being met are not going to be able to serve to their fullest capacity. The Dom(me) too needs to be able to trust his/her sub to do what is expected as smoothly and intelligently as possible. Trust is often harder for dominant folks to build than it is for submissives. As I've said I've identified as a switch for years, but being a Domme always felt like a lot more effort -- and less satisfying effort, to be honest -- than being a submissive.

This is not to say that one need be completely mature or unselfish to have a good time being flogged or flogging someone in a dungeon at a play party, though. But while BDSM as erotic activity alone is becoming more acceptable in mainstream society, being "in the life" outside of the bedroom is far less comprehensible, and is where most of the misconceptions lie, I feel.

Caveat: The above is based on my own experience and that of another close friend who is in a similar M/s relationship with his own partner. It is heavily colored by the fact that we're both pretty service-oriented, so YMMV. But I think that many of us can agree that as submissives we can be confident in our own abilities, courageous enough to trust, and mature enough to accept constructive criticism and follow directions, rather than simply weak.

hi all,
just my 2 cents on things in this post, which, btw i love! but i do have a very rambling and confusing writing style so if it makes no sense, thats expected.

i am quite a lot younger than what seems to be the majority of people using this thread so my opinions do come from a somewhat younger viewpoint. i havent always know i was submissive, i prided myself in being a "strong woman" (in fact the first time i had a convo with a dom i said i thought i would only be a sub, not a slave because i wanted to make something of myself, i now realise this so isnt the point!) but when i look back on it, certain things add up and in retrospect i can see it making sense. i also, am not always "pleasing, giving and willing", far from it i can be grumpy and bitchy a lot of the time but i also do love to please, i love to help people, but on the otherhand nor am i "strong, feisty, challenging, just waiting for a Dom strong enough to tame" me. i am myself, i, like pearlgem dont fall into either of these categories, although some may disgaree.

I never let myself be submissive to the outside world so to speak i can be quite promiscuous in a very very mild way, but nor am i strong, fiesty etc, i believe i will go far, i am determined to go far, get to the top of my profession, be the best i can be but i am neither one or the other, i do as the situation demands.

so aligning your will to his seems to me an excellent way to put it, it may not be your will as such but as was said, he has needs, you need to fulfill his needs. some psychologist or other did a study where it was found that it wasnt the ammount of things that you had in common that meant the relationship statistically lasted longer, it was if the two people involved had need satisfaction from the other person.

its not easy i will agree with that, i dont think anyone can deny that, even though my relationship with my master is online its still hard, i find myself having to bite my tongue, i will say what i think most of the time, but its learning when to not argue with something he has said, i am learning if hes said it, it will be done unless it is a limit for me, or i start using safewords, in his words, if its not a hard limit, its not your choice.

i have a strong will, i will do what i believe to be right, never will i go back on what i think is right, in a D/s sitation or completly vanilla, i have my morals, i have my opinions. so theres this determined young woman, as pearlgem also said/asked, how am i submissive? well theres the other side of me, who loves to please, loves to be praised, absoloutly loves to be told "good girl, im proud of you", there are insecurities that are below the surface that by being subby are bought to the surface, countered, challenged, im learning, not to be a different person, just learning to be me and with that, my outgoing side has come out more, i dont know how but it has.

im finding myself doing things i never thought i would do, not nescessarily because i always wanted to and never got round to it, but because master asks it of me, i give it a go, i try all i can, and when i achieve something i never thought i would, im proud of myself. in a way its a new way to challenge myself, to prove i can do things that i didnt think i could, which is, in my opinion how it relates to me being confident, outgoing and wayyyy to determined and i know i will get what i want from my life. bringing out my submissive side, has made me more determined, its made me realise that you can achieve most things.

so a pretty rambling post, that is in some way related and in some ways not. the thing that stood out to me in this post was that so many were saying submitting isnt easy, i always thought something was a bit off because i dont always find it easy, quite the opposite in fact, its hard, its challenging, yet i know its what i want, what i crave, what i need so why is something you need and want so badly such hard work? it makes no sense but having just had a complete and utter flip out, and having a few days off so to speak, im realising i need the domination, but to different degrees of submitting at different points in my life, although it may be so hard at the moment, i cant even begin to comprehend getting back to the D/s bit, i know its something i have to work through because i know its what i want.


so that answered no questions, probably made no sense and is a big long ramble, but this thread made so much sense to me that i had to chip in with my (very hard to understand) 2 cents.

emma x

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Originally Posted by damyanti

My point being ..for me this is no longer about exploring BDSM (i.e. trying to find "the way"), it is about exploring myself. BDSM is an individual journey, its about the distance traveled more then it is about how you "stack up" to someone else.

Personally, the older I get the younger I feel. (long story behind that, LOL)...and why I find your stories and this thread so inspirational.

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First of all I have to apologise for raising the idea that I felt us subs were all in competition here to have the best sub credentials. I personally didn't get that impression, but when I raised the point of competition I think I was really expressing my own insecurities, wondering if I should be different from how I am because I didn't see anyone just like me. If I was a young, always knew I was submissive sub, I would say so too, with pride. Why not? There's nothing wrong with that; it's lovely. I am only staking a wee claim for us older, relative newbies and was simply wondering if anyone felt like me too - a little bit 'unrepresented' amongst all the dazzling youth. Our fires burn brightly too but I don't wish to diminish anyone else's flame at all!
Please feel apologised to if I have raised an unseemly thought in your mind that wasn't there before.

(However, the moment I find my g spot, YOU WILL ALL KNOW ABOUT IT, I'll make certain of that, and to heck with anyone else's feelings of inadequacy!)


I feel damyanti (above) is right (as usual.) This whole thing is a personal journey of exploration. Dare I allow myself to become a sub? What does it mean to explore this submissive nature of mine? What am I learning about myself? Lisais mine claims the only opinion that should matter is your Dom's and that's true as a measure of how much you please - it's not up to you to decide that - but your sense of self is something that you can't hand over to another, I think. It can be no other way. You don't relinquish your will after all, you align it to the will of another. (God, how brilliant is that to get back to where I started!!) There must be will and intelligence and knowledge of self, to do this. You must know, for instance, when something is not right for you, when to speak up, when to share, to communicate, to quit.

I was given some very thoughtful advice when I first made my appearance on this site and I've never forgotten it or the kindness of people who reached out and helped. If you are not thriving in your submission, there's something wrong. Your Dom should help you thrive and grow and allow you to be happy. But you are ultimately responsible for this, by making good choices to be where you want to be in the first place. God, easier said than done. We make mistakes but sometimes mistakes can be very good for us as long as we learn from them.

I'm happy and curious and sometimes unsettled; full of desires, need, contrary opinions and satisfaction. I sometimes think BDSM is a load of bollocks - sometimes I understand it and sometimes I don't. My Master would sort me out in a minute over his knee. How unreconstructed, in the modern world, is that? And yet it's wonderful to be among people who understand and share my exploration.

Thanks, sinfulsex. I'm not searching out the counterculture in this thread but I am so appreciative of the wonderful women of all ages on here.

Wow, that was inspirational, Pearlgem!

You've said it better than I could. Your Dom may help you to be happy and to learn about yourself, but S/He is NOT RESPONSIBLE for your happiness, safety and well-being. Only YOU can be responsible for that.

And only YOU can prevent forest fires, but I digress.... ;)

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Originally Posted by Pearlgem

First of all I have to apologise for raising the idea that I felt us subs were all in competition here to have the best sub credentials. I personally didn't get that impression, but when I raised the point of competition I think I was really expressing my own insecurities, wondering if I should be different from how I am because I didn't see anyone just like me.

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You mean we aren't? ;)

Lol, Oh God Pearlgem don't apologize about that because it does exist, but my Husband says that is to be expected because women always do that (sort of like a female version of "mine's bigger") no matter what we are talking about, (and if the Wise one says so, it must be true :cool: lol).

As for insecurities - we all have them, and this is the place we come to air them out. :)

Beautiful thread Pearlgem, and even if I can't relate to on the older submissive thing, you have hit so many truths with it that just ring true - it is always a pleasure to read your thoughts.