How much the mid east loves us

[Stone]

Below are the actual voting records of various Arabic/Islamic States which are recorded in both the US State Department and United Nations records:


Kuwait votes against the United States 67% of the time


Qatar votes against the United States 67% of the time


Morocco votes against the United States 70% of the time


United Arab Emirates votes against the U. S. 7 0% of the time.


Jordan votes against the United States 71% of the time.


Tunisia votes against the United States 71% of the time.


Saudi Arabia votes against the United States 73% of the time.


Yemen votes against the United States 74% of the time.


Algeria votes against the United States 74% of the time.


Oman votes against the United States 74% of the time.


Sudan votes against the United States 75% of the time.


Pakistan votes against the United States 75% of the time.


Libya votes against the United States 76% of the time.


Egypt votes against the United States 79% of the time.


Lebanon votes against the United States 80% of the time.


India votes against the United States 81% of the time.


Syria votes against the United States 84% of the time.


Mauritania votes against the United States 87% of the time.


U S Foreign Aid to those that hate us:


Egypt, for example, after voting 79% of the time against the United States , still receives $2 billion annually in US Foreign Aid.


Jordan votes 71% against the United States


And receives $192,814,000 annually in US Foreign Aid.


Pakistan votes 75% against the United States


Receives $6,721,000 annually in US Foreign Aid.


India votes 81% against the United States


Receives $143,699,000 annually.


Perhaps it is time to get out of the UN and give the tax savings back to the American workers who are having to skimp and sacrifice to pay the taxes (and gasoline).


Something to think on

[nk_lion]

First of all, India is neither a Middle Eastern nation, nor is it an Islamic nation, so I am not sure why you included it in there.
Second, if the point for US to send money to these countries was to gain supporters in whatever is on their agenda, then it wouldn't be called foreign aid, it would be called a bribe.
Third, several nations you mentioned, (ex. United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia) have invested billions into the world economy including US. They are a constant customer of American companies such as defense, technology, etc. Should they leave the UN and stop spending money in US because the latter disagrees with them on topics such as the Iraq war or Palestine?

I do not mean to sound harsh, and apologize if I am. But the United Nations was established right after the second World War to prevent the third. It is clearly not an ideal solution to prevent conflict, but it is currently the best the world has in terms of a global forum to resolve differences. For the US to simply quit an organization that it was one of the founding members on the basis of not being followed by other countries would seem arrogant and would only isolate itself from the east.

And lastly, it would do well for the American leaders to understand why people from Middle Eastern/Islamic countries hate them. I am completely against the terrorist methods employed by a fanatical few, but I assure you that it is not because 'they hate your freedom'.

[gloombunny]

Perhaps it is time to get out of the UN and give the tax savings back to the American workers who are having to skimp and sacrifice to pay the taxes (and gasoline).

Getting out of the UN would save us... what? The membership dues we already don't pay?

[mkemse]

The last 6 1/2 years the United States has allienated every ally we have with the possibly exception of the UK, whether we stay or leave the UN now is a non issue
As a nation we need to to re establish our allies World Wide to do anything right now, and those countries that do support us and are friendly with us are to small to make any difference in case of war ect

[TomOfSweden]

Those statistics are retarded. It assumes that USA is floating suggestions that would be in these countries best interest to vote for.

Don't forget this is politics. Results in UN elections are never surprising. They're always negotiated in advance. If USA wants to make something pass they'll negotiate with a majority of candidates in advance or not make the petitian at all. What the remaining countries say is of no consequence and they know it. Which adds to the bullshit factor in those statistics.

Some do fail though...but polititians often make petitions rigged to fail, only so they can say to the voters they made an atempt to make it pass.

[Stone]

I am meerly pointing the fact that all these countries vote adgainst us but gee they sure seem to be able to hold out their hands and take the money dont they?I work hard pay my taxes all the things i am supposed to do yet my hard earned money is paying for bullshit like this,Countries that want our moeny thats for sure. all i can say is we need to get out of the UN let the rest of the countries pay for it if they want it and tax their citizens to give other coutries free money.I as an american am tired of all the giving we do for other countries we give money, the lives of our young men, food,and medicine to countries that hate us,but we they need help money or a police force here we come running.

[tessa]

Can statistics be retarded? Hmm, I don't think so.

Believe it or not, ejaculation can be retarded, but not statistics.

[gloombunny]

I dunno about "retarded", exactly, but statistics can most certainly be pointless, irrelevant, or deceitful.

And that's even assuming that they're true.

[TomOfSweden]

I am meerly pointing the fact that all these countries vote adgainst us but gee they sure seem to be able to hold out their hands and take the money dont they?I work hard pay my taxes all the things i am supposed to do yet my hard earned money is paying for bullshit like this,Countries that want our moeny thats for sure. all i can say is we need to get out of the UN let the rest of the countries pay for it if they want it and tax their citizens to give other coutries free money.I as an american am tired of all the giving we do for other countries we give money, the lives of our young men, food,and medicine to countries that hate us,but we they need help money or a police force here we come running.

No, you are turning UN politics into a popularity contest. Some kind of pageant. Those voting number are meaningless. They don't reflect what they where voting about or the opinions of the people in those countries. They only reflect tactical voting by one representative for each country. From this we can deduce nothing at all. Not even if they like USA or not.

[tessa]

I dunno about "retarded", exactly, but statistics can most certainly be pointless, irrelevant, or deceitful.

And that's even assuming that they're true.

Even truth, whatever that is, can be pointless or irrelevent, depending on how one chooses to view it.

I just think it's important to respect that we all have the option to have our own personal opinions, whether one agrees with them or not.

[Radiance]

All i have to say on the matter is the USA seem to stick there noses in way too much shit and should maybe leave the countries to do as they please and not start war after war, enough from me...Radi

[TomOfSweden]

Even truth, whatever that is, can be pointless or irrelevent, depending on how one chooses to view it.

I just think it's important to respect that we all have the option to have our own personal opinions, whether one agrees with them or not.

It's not a question of respecting someones opinion, is a question of causality. MasterStone drew some remarkable conclusions from statistics that in my opinion are just plain false. I'd very much like to know if, in light of my revalation of the democratic process, he now feels that he can still draw the same conclusions he did. There's more issues I've got, but this is a start.

I'm sure I'm not hurting MasterStones feelings. I'm assuming that he posted this in order for there to be a discussion. Which is what I'm doing.

[Guest 91108]

I'd pull back if it was my choice for awhile.
We're stretched to thin.....
We give too much while not taking care of our own.
period.

[nk_lion]

Out of curiosity Masterstone, where did you get these numbers from, and did it include the types of topics where these countries voted against US?

Arab and Muslim countries will not vote with the US if it has anything to do with Israel's purpose. They will also not vote with the Americans if its anything to do with the Iraq war. There are countries that would rather do without the soldiers for policing. This is regardless of the amount of money US gives them.

And as for the free money comment - there is no such thing as free money. With the money going to these countries, check what are the conditions of receiving the money.

USA is an awesome country, and only 7 years ago, I remember people from the Middle East would want to immitate the American way of life. It should not conduct it's foreign policy by labelling an entire country including it's citizens an axis of evil, as it should not disregard the organization that it help establish when a permanent member or members veto them.

Just to be sure about this, I disagree with Masterstone on this issue but think he probably is a great guy, I don't want any hard feelings.

[tessa]

MasterStone drew some remarkable conclusions from statistics that in my opinion are just plain false.

Ok, to you they are false. To Master Stone, maybe not. The only "truth" to be had here, or most anywhere for that matter, is one's own perspective. That's the only "truth" one can ultimately believe.

I'm sure I'm not hurting MasterStones feelings. I'm assuming that he posted this in order for there to be a discussion. Which is what I'm doing.

I'm sure you aren't hurting his feelings either, Tom. And discussion is great! You contribute quite a lot to the Forums by way of discussion. Discussion is what this place is all about. Qualifying someone's posted information as "retarded" and "meaningless", however, is not. Just a thought.

[TomOfSweden]

Ok, to you they are false. To Master Stone, maybe not. The only "truth" to be had here, or most anywhere for that matter, is one's own perspective. That's the only "truth" one can ultimately believe.

In this case I see it more like a maths class. You sit around trying to solve a puzzle and somebody comes up with a solution and everybody is really happy and there seems to be a correlation between all the variables. And then some kill-joy comes along and points out a flaw that messes up the whole equasion. And no way with this new information can you go back to the original solution because now you know in your head why it doesn't work.

Here's what we got. We've got a theory that most people in the mid-east hates USA. Not very surprising since the US administration aren't very clever at foreign policy. It may or may not be true, since all we know of it is filtered through sensationalist media. As are the muslims view of the west.

Master Stone presents evidence of this but which at closer inspection didn't hold water. I'm not saying the middle-easterns loves USA. I'm just saying that the evidence produced by Master Stone doesn't suport his hypothesis. Sure, it's down to perspective in the sense that that it's about understanding how representative democracy works.

I'm sure you aren't hurting his feelings either, Tom. And discussion is great! You contribute quite a lot to the Forums by way of discussion. Discussion is what this place is all about. Qualifying someone's posted information as "retarded" and "meaningless", however, is not. Just a thought.

ok. You got me. Sorry for not being nice here on the forum. I get carried away sometimes. Sorry Master Stone. You didn't deserve that.

[TomOfSweden]

ignore delete

[Stone]

First tom its takes far more than discussion of politics to hurt my feelingsand you did not.These stats were just a complilation of 5 years of votes and i will say yes stats can be deceptive i,m sure right now you could say childhood obesity is up and child molestion is down with the right group to poll.We do know the muslims countries in the middle east hate us there is little to no doubt about that.This hatred steams from the past when the UN was formed and out of guilt over the holocaust Isreal came into existance.All the members of the UN came together and basically said allright alll you people get out it belongs to the jews now so bugger off.When most people and countries think of the UN they think of the USA due to all the humanatarian aid we provide throughout the world.What i would really like to see is just how much aid milatry food medicine all the rest of the members of the UN contribute because to me it seems we are writing most the checks sending most of the food most of the medicaine and most of the military forces to settle the squabbles that really should not matter to us at all.The truely sad thing is our boys fighting in iraq right now death rate is less than the murder rate thats in our country right now.Safer in a warzone than at home.We need to fix our problems here before you go running off to help others.

[tessa]

In this case I see it more like a maths class. You sit around trying to solve a puzzle and somebody comes up with a solution and everybody is really happy and there seems to be a correlation between all the variables. And then some kill-joy comes along and points out a flaw that messes up the whole equasion. And no way with this new information can you go back to the original solution because now you know in your head why it doesn't work.

Even to a math-challenged person such as myself, I completely understand what you mean here, Tom. It gives me a new perspective. Excellent point.

Safer in a warzone than at home. We need to fix our problems here...

Another valid point. In my opinion.

[anonymouse]

It may or may not be true, since all we know of it is filtered through sensationalist media.

That's the one 'truth' in all of this. There's a perfect metaphor to be found for the media in Lewis Carroll's Jabberwocky poem. After reading it, Alice says, “…it’s rather hard to understand!” (You see she didn’t like to confess, ever to herself, that she couldn’t make it out at all.) “Somehow it seems to fill my head with ideas – only I don’t know exactly what they are! However, somebody killed something: that’s clear, at any rate…”

anonymouse

[nk_lion]

What i would really like to see is just how much aid milatry food medicine all the rest of the members of the UN contribute because to me it seems we are writing most the checks sending most of the food most of the medicaine and most of the military forces to settle the squabbles that really should not matter to us at all.

As Claude Simon said it
"To begin with, our perception of the world is deformed, incomplete"

When I was small, I lived in the Middle East. And from my experience, people over there don't want US to interfere with their problems, unless they explicitly ask for help. No one that I knew over there had a problem with Gulf War 1, and everyone (or almost everyone) hated Saddam Hussain. They see the US trying to furthur their own interests in the region.

These stats were just a complilation of 5 years of votes

Then I'm assuming that most of the disagreements were based on the Iraq issue. I imagine (I'm not looking at the source of these stats) that Germany and France also have a voting record disagreeing with US.

As of the amount in foreign aid given, you are right, US gives the highest amount, but in terms of percentage of GDP, the following countries contribute more:

Norway
Luxembourg
Denmark
Sweden
Netherlands
Portugal
France
Belgium
Switzerland
Ireland
United Kingdom
Finland
Germany
Canada/Spain/Australia/Austria/New Zealand/Greece (Tied)
Japan

[Stone]

well the french allways vote adgainst us they hate us and germany well they got their asses kicked 2 times by us. and yes they give a higher percentage of their GDP but they have way higher taxes than we do and far fewer people good for them if they want to pay for the UN let them. i have never seen the UN do nothing but vote to send our boys and money to other countries.I am saying i think we need to keep our money for our people we have pleanty of problems here we have homeless kids without healthcare kids without food or a place to live people who are obviously mentally ill living on the streets cities that are so dangerous none of us talking here would want to go to them.

[Ozme52]

First of all, India is neither a Middle Eastern nation, nor is it an Islamic nation, so I am not sure why you included it in there.
Second, if the point for US to send money to these countries was to gain supporters in whatever is on their agenda, then it wouldn't be called foreign aid, it would be called a bribe.
Third, several nations you mentioned, (ex. United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia) have invested billions into the world economy including US. They are a constant customer of American companies such as defense, technology, etc. Should they leave the UN and stop spending money in US because the latter disagrees with them on topics such as the Iraq war or Palestine?

I do not mean to sound harsh, and apologize if I am. But the United Nations was established right after the second World War to prevent the third. It is clearly not an ideal solution to prevent conflict, but it is currently the best the world has in terms of a global forum to resolve differences. For the US to simply quit an organization that it was one of the founding members on the basis of not being followed by other countries would seem arrogant and would only isolate itself from the east.

And lastly, it would do well for the American leaders to understand why people from Middle Eastern/Islamic countries hate them. I am completely against the terrorist methods employed by a fanatical few, but I assure you that it is not because 'they hate your freedom'.

I probably agree (more or less) with most everything you say except that last point. They do, in fact, hate our freedom... and specifically our freedom of religion. The Islamic fundamentalist governments are quite specific about that.

[Ozme52]

All i have to say on the matter is the USA seem to stick there noses in way too much shit and should maybe leave the countries to do as they please and not start war after war, enough from me...Radi

While that seems to be the popular consensus... only history will be able to determine if Hussein, for example, might have turned out to be the Hitler of the Middle East. Neville Chamberlain made peace with Nazi Germany... Apeasement... a bad move in retrospect. I wonder what an early entry into what became WWII would have accomplished. Afterall, at that point the Luftwaffe was flying squadrons of biplanes painted on opposite sides with different squadron markings to make the apparent arms capabilities double... An early confrontation might have spared Europe that conflagration.

Who can say, without a doubt, that removing Hussein as the leader of Iraq hasn't averted a far more dire consequence.

[mkemse]

Our Country, The Inted States has a history in of getting involved in areas of the world we hae no business getting involved it, as someone said a few months back, do not recall who "The United States has to stop policing thr world and "forcing" it's way onto other countrie"
There may very well be nations on Earth that simply do not want to be like us, but we have an incesent need as a Nation to stick our nose into every countries problems,, we hae very few allies now and many enemies, this Has nothing to do with 911, this is somthing our country has done for decades

[Stone]

Yes they hate or religous freedom the most it is every muslims job to covert us make us their slaves or simply just kill us.Most people do not understand Islam,or want to in Islam there are 3 houses the house of Islam saved for the muslims of course,The house of treaty,and the house of war.Here in the USA we are christians so we do not fall into the house of Islam nor do we have a treaty with them so there is only one thing left the house of war.This thread will probably start getting flamed and heated so keep in mind we are having a discussion not a who's right or wrong.

[mkemse]

agreed let's keep this thread as it is wih comments only no flaming, nobody will be pleased with ever remark, more impoartantly we are ALL ADULTS, let act liked civilzed ones on this thread and stay within the subject matter, no flaming just comments or remarks

[tessa]

This thread will probably start getting flamed and heated so keep in mind we are having a discussion not a who's right or wrong.

[LikelySuspect]

I'm a canadian. but as i get bombarded with american tv, politics, intenet, etc, i have a bit of an educated opinion.
I know for a fact that america is not solely a cristian nation for one. you say that they hate your freedom of religion, then group yourselves into one category. from what i gather, america was established on the seperation of church and state.
anywho, now that my religion speech is done, i think that, while it does need to look after its own, its only fitting that one of the richest countries in the world should be looking after others as well.

just my two cents. i like watching this thread.

[mkemse]

No, i do not believe they hate us for our religion alone, i believe most countires that hate us because we have this need to involve our elves in every world confilict and push our "ways" onto others, religion does play a part, but i do not beileve it is the sole reason, we are not like, we are not liked because we have the need to always police the world and make other countries like we are, our form of government, or freedoms ect realgion as i said does play a a part but certainly not the only part
Those countries not a threat to us we need to eave them alone and let them be and let the peple in those countries live they way THEY want not the way WE WANT THEM TO