Does anyone here question BDSM?

[duktig flicka]

Is there anybody here who questions if practicing BDSM may have potentially adverse effects on the psyche, or possibly roots in less than healthy issues? If so, and you would like to discuss it, please do contact me.

I don't dare discuss it here because just about every BDSM practioneer I've met appears to find it absolutely offensive to even question the statement that BDSM is 100% healthy and couldn't possibly have any psychological or neurological effects. I don't want to provoke a flame war.

If you would like to chat on AIM, ICQ, MSN, or Google Chat, then let me know and I will turn it on. I do hope to hear from someone as I strongly feel the need to analyze and discuss this matter.

Hope it's okay to requestion personal contact here. Couldn't find anything against it in the rules, so I figured it should be okay to go ahead.

[Ozme52]

No problem about asking to be contacted that I know of.

To your question... as with all things, moderation is best and it's when you approach the 'edge of the envelope' and push to extremes that you are most likely to cause damage, whether physical or psychic.

[duktig flicka]

Thank you for your reply.

I think just about anyone will agree that BDSM can go too far. The issue I would like to discuss is whether BDSM itself is potentially problematic for mental health - even if it's in moderation.

[Ozme52]

Wouldn't that depend on the general mental health of the individual more than on bdsm in particular?

Afterall, people can go "off the deep end" (colloquial U.S. slang for mentally ill) for any reason. Take our recent space-diapered, love crazed, NASA astronaut lady for example. Simple jealousy.

[duktig flicka]

Of course they could. There are also things that will have adverse mental effects on just about anyone. I'm not comfortable ruling out the possibility that BDSM is one of them, especially since there are zero studies that have been conducted on the matter.

I don't want a debate. I'd just like to discuss this possibility with others who are considering it so I can try and figure out some answers for myself.

[tessa]

In my opinion, I do believe it's a good thing for you to try and figure out some answers for yourself. Being introspective about the different aspects of what we bring to our lives can only enhance the experience.

My best to you in your analysis of it all.

tessa

[cariad]

The closest I have come to that is wondering if we do what we do because of a mental health imbalance, and if that is the case, do we tend to augment that imbalance by actively catering to it.

And I have not answered either of those questions to my satisfaction.

cariad

[TomOfSweden]

Is it really about moderation? Isn't it more about just doing it right?

A submissive woman who meets a manipulative, selfish and mean Master can be very hurt by it no matter how much she does it all for the right reasons.

And then you've got the problem of that love hurts. Any love. The end result of any relationship is most likely to be a lot of pain. We have to be pretty damn lucky for it not to go that way. But it's still worth it, because it lets us grow as people.

Any relationship that doesn't evolve; and just conserves you into a role that you haven't picked by conscious choice; and that doesn't change, is always bad. If we're not growing a little all the time, we're dying a little all the time.

It sounds to me that you have had unsettling personal experiences that you don't really know how to deal with? If this is true, I suggest you post what has happened and what your thought on it are. It doesn't matter if you're not sure. I'm sure the collective brain of BDSM library can help you.

[input from my slave] A bdsm relationship is a normal relationship, just like any other....but a chrystalisation of a it. The roles are more clearly defined. If the tension the Master builds up in the slave isn't taken care of by a lot of love, off-course the balance is off and it may become unhealthy.

edit: Stockholm rocks!!! Hello neighbour.

[duktig flicka]

Tessa, thank you! I do appreciate your kind thoughts.

Cariad, I would like to talk about exactly that issue. Would you like to discuss it in private? No pressure or anything if you don't want to. Just please let me know if you're interested in talking about it.

TomofSweden, hejsan! Yes. You are right that I have had bad experiences and I am very concerned that they may be the reason I am interested in BDSM. This worry is compounded by all the other BDSM practioneers I've known. I have participated in a few BDSM communities both online and off, and about 80-90% of the subs and maybe 50% of the doms who I have spoken to about the issue are survivors of child abuse.

We know that self-destruction as a result of self hatred exists. We know that Stockholm Syndrome exists. We know that victims of abuse are prone to become "used to" the abuse and expect it or associate it with love. We also know that abuse and extreme insecurities can lead to clinically narcissitic and sadistic behaviour.

I think it would be foolish to deny that some BDSM practioneers will have the issues outlined above. The question that is concerning me is how many? 2%? 25%? 50%? 75%? 100%? Before someone tries to jump in and answer that question as statement of fact, let me please say that I really need a thorough analysis to support such a statement. If someone tells me "I'm mentally healthy and I practice BDSM," it won't convince me simply because anecdotal evidence from someone on the internet who could be anybody is not convincing. In order to answer that question I need either a scientific study or a very well-thought out analysis by someone who demonstrates that they understand something about the psychological, neurological, and sociological issues present.

On a side note, how is BDSM the same as a normal relationship? One is based on inequality while the other is based on equality. I don't see the parallel.

[coookie]

i do not have the answers you are looking for although i can say that BDSM may only appear to be based on inequality ... i think there is equality myself ... without my submission he can not Dominate...it is a circle of sorts.

[cariad]

I am very happy to discuss it in private, although the advantage of discussing on the boards is that we potentially benefit from other people's input - but will leave that in your hands. I find this to be a safe place, and one where I am happy to air thoughts which are not always fully acceptable to the main body, because there is atmosphere of acceptance of differences.

On a side note, how is BDSM the same as a normal relationship? One is based on inequality while the other is based on equality. I don't see the parallel.

It is not often that I disagree with anyone as strongly as I disagree with what you have said there.

In my experience both on and offline a BDSM relationship ONLY works if there is a balance of equals. Any imbalance creates a flaw in that relationship, regardless of which way the imbalance lies. I agree that the balance is between two equals and opposites, but they are very equal (said with a guilty apology to my English mistress for the tautology). If his Dominance is greater than my submission, then the door is open for abuse of me, if my submission is greater than his dominance, then I feel like a stranded sub. That is speaking in general terms, the principle continues to work at a more detailed level.

In a non bdsm relationship I believe that the same applies, but because there is not the same degree of interdependence upon each other, the balance is less important.

That takes me round to your initial question about mental health. My unanswered question to myself is, is that level of dependence upon another person healthy. The closest I have come to answering that, and I can find flaws in my own answer, is that if the person is able to live a healthy independent life without their bdsm partner, but find that the quality is enhanced by doing so, then it is a healthy relationship. If however they are not able to do that, then perhaps the bdsm relationship is masking a health issue which needs exploring.

cariad

[coookie]

well spoken cariad

[duktig flicka]

I don't feel completely comfortable discussing it here, because it seems to make people angry every time I ask the question, even if only to myself. When I have tried bringing up this question before in a couple communities, I never got a chance to even discuss the question. Instead, several people very angrily tell me that BDSM is without a doubt a 100% healthy practice simply because it is, and I am being offensive if I question such a fact. I don't get to discuss the question because I get diverted into defending my right to ask the question. That hasn't happened in this thread, so maybe it won't, and you could be right that this is a safe space.

As for the equality thing, equality means there is no domination and submission. Certainly you have balance and that's great, but I don't see how you can say that equality can coexist with domination and submission when one is the opposite of the other. We might just be arguing semantics here. The point is that domination and submission doesn't happen in a normal relationship, which is why a normal relationship is considered "equal."

[Psynymph]

i also disagree with the idea that bdsm is a relationship based on inequality. there is a very distinct, but fragile balance between two people involved in a bdsm lifestyle relationship.

granted the balance may not be seen as the same you would see in a "vanilla" relationship, but that may simply be because it's not widely accepted.

you must have a submission to have dominance and vice versa. you must have respect and trust from both sides in order to make anything work. a bdsm relationship is, in my personal opinion, a "vanilla" relationship intensified and taken to a whole new level.

you will not a find a good Dom that does not respect and see His or Her submissive as an equal. it takes just as much strength to submit as it does to dominant, and the individuals involved in a TPE type relationship will know this.

oh and i wouldn't worry about starting a "flame war". it seems that everyone on here can intelligently debate and/or discuss just about anything without involving or resorting to insults. plus our wonderful godlike mods keep everything in check.

i'm not sure if this ties in with this particular subject but... i've always wondered if deep-rooted psychological truama, like being sexually abused as a young child, affects whether a person is submissive or dominant. it would seem logical but then how could find satisfaction? for example say as a child, a female was sexually abused constantly by her father and later in life she discovers that she is submissive.... do you think her earlier abuse caused her to have a certain mindset? to just give in, to just please? and if so.... wouldn't it ultimately be traumatic for her?

i'm not saying i necessarily agree with this line of thinking... i was just wondering....

[TomOfSweden]

ok, what if a person who has been the victim of abuse and looks for aspects of that abuse and in some ways a continuation of it in a future spouse. So what? If it makes you happy, why not? Love is an all internal feeling. No matter if you've got a boyfreind or not, it's all happening in your head. If not having it makes you feel like you're missing something...you're not exactly comming out on top are you?

On a side note, how is BDSM the same as a normal relationship? One is based on inequality while the other is based on equality. I don't see the parallel.

I've got issues with almost every syllable in this.

First off. It's normal that women are opressed. So much for normal relationships being equal. Even in the west women have the short end of the stick in almost every concievable way, no matter how you measure.

Equality is a mythical animal I think we've yet to see in life. Nothing is equal.

Based on inequality? My slave gets hers. I'm certain of that. Being an obedient slave and living for her Master is actually what she wants in life. Her needs are being fullfilled. What more could she ask for?

My slave is sitting next to me right now, and burst out into this, "Why would I want to live in an inequal relationship? That's just stupid. I'm not."

I think the error in your thought is this: You seem to think a healthy human is a supremely logical and rational being. When the truth is nobody is. It's some kind of Rosseauist-Spinozist residue in thinking that just isn't true. There isn't a healthy human emotional equilibrium. A person in harmony. A human like that have never existed.

But this discussion is likely to be quite one sided since the people who don't think the BDSM life-style is healthy, would off-course not be on this forum at all. So don't be sad if you few of us agree with you.

edit: And as far as abuse goes. I'll bet you lots of money you'll never ever find a person who has never been abused. Last year the Swedish govornement did a survey on sexual abuse on teenagers. They found that 100% of all eighteen year old girls in Sweden had been the victim of sexual abuse at least once. And this is Sweden. Land of equality. Have practitioners of BDSM been more of victims than others? Who knows?

[Guest 91108]

...

As for the equality thing, equality means there is no domination and submission. Certainly you have balance and that's great, but I don't see how you can say that equality can coexist with domination and submission when one is the opposite of the other. We might just be arguing semantics here. The point is that domination and submission doesn't happen in a normal relationship, which is why a normal relationship is considered "equal."

The fact that domination and submission doesn't happen in a normal realtions ship actually has nothing to do with what is equal or not. That is someone's perception.
There is balance and equality -- exactly because the Domination and submission are on opposite ends of the teeter-totter. Opposites create balance . To have equal amounts of each is where "normalcy" exists.

I think the normal relationships in our society today are not normal or equal and more over are not natural and that is why they have such a high termination rate as compared to - say marriages of our grandparents.

Many who live the lifestyle consider it just as strong a connection as marriage .. and only marry as a legal binder with it's fringe benefits.

The idea of harm caused by Bad Doms and subs who are too submissive. well what do we participate in that does not have instances of problems.
Bad apples in the bunch.

[cariad]

As for the equality thing, equality means there is no domination and submission. Certainly you have balance and that's great, but I don't see how you can say that equality can coexist with domination and submission when one is the opposite of the other. We might just be arguing semantics here. The point is that domination and submission doesn't happen in a normal relationship, which is why a normal relationship is considered "equal."

One definition of equality would be the same in all respects. But even if you were take identical twins, there would be differences between them. So in that sense it is impossible to have a relationship between complete equals. Also, if I were to find someone identical to me, I certainly would not wish to have a relationship with them! I already have a relationship with myself, why simply duplicate it?

The equalities which I think are important, and the ones which I intuitively look for in a relationship are strength of character, emotional and intellectual abilities, and spiritual and aesthetic appreciation, and ethical awareness. That applies to whether it is a bdsm relationship or a platonic friendship. I honestly believe that if those are equal in intensity then the relationship is between equals.

As for the equality thing, equality means there is no domination and submission.

Suggests that you see one as greater than the other. I do not. It is a little known fact that I have a passion for chocolate. I have a favourite recipe which is basically chillies filled and coated with chocolate (and a significant amount of vodka thrown in for good measure). Both the chocolate and the chilli are very powerful flavours, but very different. For the recipe to work, the potency of each has to be balanced, neither more than the other. I do not consider either to be more important or more significant nor either to be lesser than the other. The magic is in the counterplay between the two. To me dominance and submission is a similar counterplay.

If/when I submit to someone, it is a positive act. It is not hard for me to do, because I wish to do it. I also know that I have the strength to manage without that relationship, it is simply my preference not to, because of the huge pleasure/satisfaction I receive from submission. I need to submit to gain those benefits. For me it is significant that I only need to submit to that extent, I do not need to be complete as person.

That is a personal analysis of my position, which I made primarily for my benefit sometime ago, in an attempt to answer what you have asked. I would not dream of saying whether it is right for anyone else.

The point is that domination and submission doesn't happen in a normal relationship, which is why a normal relationship is considered "equal."

I think there are a few key ideas here. You could be right that the majority of people have what we would call vanilla relationships, although I do wonder if we could see through bedroom doors we might spot signs which would cause us to lift an eyebrow.

I would throw out the challenge that all to often 'normal' is the lowest common denominator, possibly the safest position, but I am convinced that it is always the most desirable.

Normal can also mean average, acceptable. I wish for more than that in a relationship.

cariad

[TomOfSweden]

I'd just like to add "yes". Yes, I question every aspect of BDSM. I think it's great that you do it to. Anybody who does anything without first questioning it is a certifiable moron.

[pixie_dust]

The impression I'm getting is that this discussion is leaning toward your concern about the equality in most BDSM relationships. Moreover, that a submissive is treated as less that equal to his/her Dominant partner in comparison to what you termed as "normal" relationships.

I only ask that you look into what most consider traditional relationships between a husband and wife. For example, who would decide how paychecks are spent? Who is expected to take care of the housework? Who is the primary caregiver to the children? My point is simply this...

Even in the most traditional/normal relationship there is a level of dominance and submission. Nothing is ever completely equal where there is a relationship. If that were true, there would be no divorces, no arguments, and certainly no abusive relationships (whether they be husband/wife, parent/child, or between siblings).

I can certainly understand and fully appreciate the answers you are trying to find here. I just cannot agree with some of the ideals you've presented.

In my opinion (and this is just mine based on personal experience), a relationship within BDSM lifestyle shows more concern and respect for each partner than the traditional relationship. As many have already said, one can only Dominate if the submissive is willing to give them that power and control. That power and control is seen by Dominants as a gift, something that is given only to them with trust, love, and belief that it will be cherished. Within a vanilla relationship, that control and power is expected and unappreciated based on the standards set forth in society.

[cariad]

I have spent more time than is healthy sitting in my car today going somewhere rather slowly, and gave your questions some more thought.

Going back to you original question...

I know what it is like to be in a physically abusive relationship (for a short time) and an emotionally abusive relationship (for a very long time). Both of these had a similiar taste. I hated to the my core how they made me feel. Both had the effect of leaving me scared, apprehensive and with low self esteem. I would never go there voluntarily again.

I have never experienced that within a bdsm relationship. Although I choose to submit the outcome is the opposite of what I describe above. The whole is a positive and affirming experience.

I think that is the closest I can come to saying that I don't believe that I am nurturing a mental health issue by being in a bdsm relationship.

cariad

[MMI]

I think the topic is going to be aired on this forum anyway - and I am pleased about that.

In my opinion, there IS domination and submission in a normal relationship, and generally speaking, it is all one way: the stronger-willed, more insistent person prevailing over the other, often with no benefit or satisfaction to that other person. The thing is, it is not ... or not necessarily ... linked to sex (although sex is a weapon in some normal relationships). BDSM is primarily a particular way of carrying out sexual activity and fantasy. "Normal" people fantasise too and do strange things, including abuse each other. Abuse is not BDSM - it is simply abuse.

There can be no domination without submission, and in a BDSM, that occurs consensually and within understood limits. If those limits are exceeded deliberately by one or the other, then that person is no longer practicing BDSM. S/he is practicing abuse.

I speak without any specialist knowledge about psychology or mental conditions, but I would venture to say that unhealthy obsessions are not caused by BDSM activities, although obsessives might practice it.

[Alex Bragi]

This topic is raised regulary here, in some form or another, and each time I'm afraid I'm one of those who's a little offended by it.

MM1, thank you! Your succinct and well articulated response has hit the proverbial nail on the head!

[Ross Martin]

I am new here so you can rest assured I am not going to yell at you or get mad at you or become self-righteous. (Mind you I do not believe anyone here has done the above anyway.)

: I think it would be foolish not to question the BDSM life style and experience. This does not bring up the question of doubt because you don't want a Dom who doubts his or herself but one who can be philosophical about it all. They know what they want and why they want but still ask the big why question anyway as a mental exercise if nothing else.

Subs should ask themselves, too, what they want and how far they are willing to go to get it. Humans are questioning and questing creatures. BDSM can be a marvelous outlet for frustrations in the past and it can be part of ones questioning and questing too. Does any of this help? Hope so.

Ross

[His_blizzard]

The closest I have come to that is wondering if we do what we do because of a mental health imbalance, and if that is the case, do we tend to augment that imbalance by actively catering to it.

And I have not answered either of those questions to my satisfaction.

cariad

I thought that way for way many years and it was the reason that I refused to set that part of who I was free. I was so afraid that there was "something wrong with me"that I denied it any space in my physical and emotional life. In my personal experience, it was when I finally allowed that part of my personality to florish that I felt balanced mentally and emotionally. I am calmer and happier. It completed me. In my experience, my D/s union is what did the trick and the BDSM "play" is just icing on the cake. "Peace" ~blizz~

[Warbaby1943]

[b]
On a side note, how is BDSM the same as a normal relationship? One is based on inequality while the other is based on equality. I don't see the parallel.

If cariad first followed by others hadn't disagreed with this statement I sure would have. It is so far from being the truth in every good relationship that I am aware of here in this community. I think that has sufficiently been pointed though.

As far as being a product of an abusive environment goes that is not the case with me or my sub. Yet we still enjoy the benefit we reap from our BDSM activities.

[Sir_Russell]

I used to have arguements about the term equal with my feminist friends, I told them we aren't equal, and we aren't. I can't carry a baby to birth, she can't impregnate anyone. Our drives are very different, our chemistry alters the way we preceive realty. The list of differences is very long.

I don't know anyone that is married that has an equal relationship. In every relationship that last longer then a couple of hours there appears a Dom and sub, in most good vanilla relationship this is true. There is more of a tendancy for the roles to reverse in vanilla. That reversal is a big part of the reason that most people end up in a failed relationship, in my opinion, due to the fact that it becomes a competition to be the top dog.

In bdsm relationship I am the last voice the decision maker, which is natural for me, that doesn't mean that I don't value her opinion. Actually I lean very heavily on her in her fields of expertise, but I have the right to approve or deny and I damn well have to do that wisely.

A good relationship, a strong one, is based on the parts when together are greater then seperately. BDSM when done correctly is like that a sub is a sub because it feel right and better for the sub, a Dom, at least for me, has no real choice in the matter either it is part of that person. When it comes down to it we know our roles well and depend on the strengths of our partner.

Russell

[Eponine]

If his Dominance is greater than my submission, then the door is open for abuse of me, if my submission is greater than his dominance, then I feel like a stranded sub.
First, I have to say, cariad, I was very impressed by the eloquence of your statement. It really made me stop and ponder...very cool...

In reading everybody's posts, it seems we have different definitions of equality, so duktig flicka, what did you mean saying a BDSM relationship is not equal?

I read it, and of course, using my own definition of inequality, I disagreed as much as everyone else... I think if that's been your experience, you have indeed been with the wrong people- not truly loving people.

For me... no I don't think I could make it on my own in this world without some help... and I am and have struggled with that issue... but this Master is helping this girl feel okay about that... feel better about myself, making me realize it doesn't take away from my intelligence or any other good quality He tells me i have (and the list is long according to Him )... so i'm getting to be okay with it... don't feel like a mental defective- lol- as much anymore...

But, to go back to the original question- I have often asked myself.... why am I this way? Was I born this way? Or is it because my father raised me in a very dictatorial way and Freud was right? Sometimes it seems so, but... I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter to me, because there will never be a way for me to be happy, satisfied, free, wholly me in any other kind of relationship... so it is what it is, and I decided to just enjoy it...

And let's say the root of my submission is some mental health issue, but within the BDSM relationship, I grow healthier and stronger and more self-assured and self-loving... well, I take that as a very good thing.

If BDSM is - let's say for me - masking some mental health problem, or is a problem in itself, then what are the options? Go to therapy to recover from it? And then have plain old boring vanilla relationships, and plain old boring vanilla sex?? No way!!!!!!!!! lol ok I got a little carried away...

But anyway, I've just gotten over needing to figure out why... I just know that I feel healthier this way, besides happier...

But, flicka, if you do do any serious research, I would be interested in your results and conclusions.

[Hime]

Dude, I'm going to grad school for rhetoric next year -- I question EVERYTHING!

And yeah, I have thought about the unhealthy side of this lifestyle too. I know that some of my submissive feelings, for instance, are rooted in my less-than-perfect relationship with my father. My dad and I love each other, but he has always had impossibly high expectations and I've always felt like I'm not good enough because I can't live up to them.

I have thought a lot about this, talked about it with a therapist, etc. In the end, I know that my parents will love me even if I don't get my PhD at 24 and go on to win a Nobel prize, and I try to relate to them in a healthy way and be grateful that I have loving parents who really care about my life. That's all I can do about that issue, as far as I'm concerned. I may not be 100% healthy, but I am doing my best.

Meanwhile, being in a D/s relationship helps me deal with feelings of inadequacy and guilt by constantly reassuring me that even if I do something wrong or need to be punished, I will still always be loved and admired. It helps me remember that making a mistake isn't the end of the world. So even while it comes out of an unhealthy situation, I think that this is a healthy way to make the best of it.

[Dorkalicious]

Heh, I actually brought this up to a friend while studying for our Theories of Personality test a few weeks ago....

[WyldWyl]

Actually, this is seeming like a reasonable place to mention a theory i've been mulling over for the last little while. I even hopped on my university's database of psychological journals and did a little research on the ideas, to see if some studies had been done. And I found a grand total of...one. And not a very good one at that. It simply suggested that the aetiology of masochism in males might stem from associations in childhood. Basically a neo-freudian approach. (Hebb, 2001)

But my own personal theory (who knows...might even get to write a paper on it one day) is that there is (at least in the case of masochism, which I realise isnt the same thing as submission, but it's germain to the topic as a whole) a certain neurochemical difference in people who take satisfaction in pain and those who don't. Note here that I don't wish to characterise it as a disorder or as being abnormal...just a slight different. Whilst stimulation of pain receptors in all people causes the release of endorphins as a natural analgesic, I think this response is heightened in masochists, or that the feedback loop to regulate the response may be in some way impared. So if we can extend this idea to the other aspects of BDSM, we may all be in someone neurologically different to our vanilla brothers and sisters, if I might use that term.

But does that mean that BDSM as a whole is unhealthy? Well, I suppose that depends on what's caused the change to our respective neurochemistries, and to the extent that chemistry is linked to health. (Not even to open the can of worms about how you measure 'health' objectively) I would guess that it depends to a huge degree on the person in question, their motives, life-experience, partners, etc.

<edit> On the other hand, the ICD-10 and the DSM-IV(R) (international guides to categorising mental disorders and psychopathology) stopped categorising things like masochism as psychosexual disorders about the same time they dropped homosexuality as one, so legally and medically, you couldn't be sectioned/institutionalised for engaging in BDSM unless they could convincingly argue that it stemmed from some other problem that made you an immediate danger to yourself or others.</edit>

So. Is BDSM by it's nature unhealthy? My answer is a resounding...maybe. Let me gather more experience and maybe i'll come up with something more enlightening.