New Kink Label?

[Ozme52]

Hey Remia, yeah, no one can own a label. Whatever label anyone uses it's going to mean something different to them than to other people and that's true, in and outside of kink.

DowntownAmber, I can't wait to be 30, so I tell tell everyone I'm Twenty-Ten, because that will amuse me.

Dammit!!! That makes me Twenty-Twenty-Sixteen!!

Which would be discouraging if I weren't so loaded with Ozness!!

[littlepet]

LMAO @ loaded with Ozness!!!

And clearly made of awesome haha!

[MasterDragon]

Hi Seri, "Kajira" is a word invented by John Norman to describe the slaves of his Gor series. (Which I realize you know this, it's just leading to my point) I find the books misogynistic and distasteful. (more explanation in the long reply I made to you on your own thread, with a couple copy/paste jobs as just two examples) While I recognize that you do not agree with my interpretation, it's an issue that we will have to agree to disagree on.

I know, for example that some people who are not into the TPE type of relationship might find me being owned offensive, and that would be fine. Because every person is entitled to their views. I think it can be hard to have views that are strongly conflicting without seeking to convert, but I think I can say I view the books as distasteful without having the need for you to see them the same way. Though if you ever feel that I'm moving into conversion territory let me know. Because I believe the autonomy of other people is important and I don't want to step on that. And sometimes I do.

I was raised in a fundamentalist household and at times that habit can be very hard to break.

But I feel very strongly that John Norman's Gor books display a Master/slave relationship in a way that I find misogynistic and disturbing. So, in light of that, the term he invented for his slaves: "Kajira" is a term that I find equally misogynistic and distasteful and would ask that you kindly never apply it to me.

I am not going to go far into this for the feelings of other and others property, so I will say this:

littlepet, you are absolutely correct and might I say you have a beautiful way of putting things nicely and adding only what you feel is necessary since the Gorean series is 'broken', blind and so much more.

It pains me to see the traditions fall away to fiction.

Master Dragon AKA Angel Of Pain

[littlepet]

Thanks, MasterDragon.

[denuseri]

Oh dont worry i wont directly call you a kajira.

And if i were to do so it would be as the highest of compliments.

I am fully aware of the word and its meaning, i also see that my words will be wasted to some degree trying to convience you otherwise,, no one is trying to convert, i only wish to clairafiy that the work is in fact not mysoginist and obviously been misinterpeted by many incuding yourself . the suposition made by you is very much like calling all islamics terrorists, which couldnt be farther from the truth.

Yes when it is slandered in such a way we who follow its tenents in the manner in which the author wrote them to be; ussually take offence. Just as you do when your way is attacked by others.

That being said, forgive me if i have offended you. Especially if it is just by being what i am ...a kajira

[sisterhoney61 {RW}]

Dammit, denu, now your posts have me longing to return to Gor and become a kajira again! ; )

[alpha_Straye]

i think pet is a very pleasant term and i can see how it could be used as a label of Ownership beyond it's usual use as a term of endearment. It does, however, seem to me to be less of a category and more of a ..mm.. 'relabeling for personal taste'. Nothing wrong with that however *smile*.

[Ozme52]

LMAO @ loaded with Ozness!!!

And clearly made of awesome haha!

You know... it spreads through close contact with me...

Ozmosis!!

[Polaris]

You know... it spreads through close contact with me...

Ozmosis!!

Oh, you must visit certain areas quite often...it's a condition very frequently found in Ozlo.



Just a few quick remarks on the Gor books...

Literature is pretty much my daily bread. This is mostly what I do: I read books, and then I interprete then. The people around me do the same. The typical scenerio goes like the following:

We start a friendly debate. One person is talking. The person has finished talking, and the rest of the people in the room jump at them with some delight. If we weren't in an academic surrounding we'd most likely start to mudwrestle at some point, but it's definitely intellectual mudslinging:

A: It is OBVIOUS that the author meant to say...
B (with fervour): But we MUST NOT FORGET
C: You are all wrong. It is entirely different
A: But if you look at this passage it's EVIDENT
ad infinitum

If I have learned something then it is that the same book can be read in many different ways by different readers. It depends on your own worldviews, your own experience, your own emotional state in the moment of reading...imho, there is no 'one true reading'. And hell, am I glad there isn't -- my field wouldn't have much future if this was the case.

What I'm trying to say is, I think it's possible to find the Gor series misogynist without being 'incorrect' per se. It is a reading that the books allow, just as much as they allow for an entirely different reading. Personally, I find them enjoyable and entertaining, but neither particularly misogynist nor particularly exciting.

When it gets to interpretation, we do exactly that -- interprete. And as soon as we begin to interprete, we leave the safe ground of fact and enter the realm of, well, interpretation. It is something we can discuss, of course. But at the end of the day, everybody will arrive at their respective, subjective 'truth' and stick to it. This is of course no criticism into any direction, I'm just a bit weird about literature in general

And denuseri, just because it fits in here (not wanting to hijack the thread): I really admire the courage and passion you show when you talk about the lifestyle you chose for yourself. I realise there is an (in my opinion unjustified) stigma attached to the Gorean lifestyle, and I learned a lot from you and the few but lovely Goreans on this board. Thanks for that!

And now I'll stop boring ya'll to death!

[littlepet]

Seri,

To me this is along the lines of a liberal christian who because they believe I am under their god's grace, whether I want it or not, will call me christian and consider it a compliment with no regards to my own feelings on the issue or how the religion may have been used as a weapon against me, and therefore is personally distasteful.

I appreciate that you would never call me Kajira. And while to you it would be the highest compliment, to me it would be an insult. Just like being called a christian would be personally insulting to me. I am an individual human being with my own internal moral code which may or may not agree with someone else's which is fine.

I do not have a need for others to "agree with my view" or "follow my way." I merely insist that no one insist that I must just not "get it" or else I would see the wondrous beauty of it.

I have not made any statements against specific practitioners of the Gorean Lifestyle, only my personal assertion that the books are misogynistic. Considering that it is a work of fiction there can be no "true interpretation."

I have my opinion and you have yours.

Because all interpretations are necessarily interpretations. But they are twisted books from my perspective. I'm creating a separate free webpage, not on this site, to get some of my thoughts on the Gor series out and why these books irk me so much.

I personally believe the bible is a barbaric/tribalistic/amoral book, BUT this does not mean I believe Christians are this way. There are plenty of christians who are good people. But I don't think it's "because of" the bible.

I have similar feelings toward the Gor novels. Also, as a writer, I find them to be bad even by pulp fiction standards. If the books were not pedantic and preachy, the misogyny might be slightly less obvious and irksome.

Nevertheless, whether or not it's "fantasy" I find the ideas very harmful to women as a gender. But as I said, that is my opinion. I have not claimed my view to be holy writ.

I have not once attacked "your way." I don't recall personally saying anything negative about any human being who follows a Gorean Lifestyle. What I have done instead, is express my personal views on a work of FICTION.

And why it is difficult for me to reconcile books which I find offensive, with decent people who follow a lifestyle in some way based around said books. But this is not the first time I have come against this. I have a muslim friend who is the kindest girl I know in the world, yet I feel she follows an insane and barbaric book.

I know many kind and wonderful christians, who nevertheless follow a book I find insane and barbaric. The Gor novels are just yet another extension of this for me.

Tolerance means that I do not seek to convert others to my way, nor do I try to stop others in any way from practicing what is in their hearts. Tolerance does not mean i cannot have my own individual views and feelings on what constitutes misogyny.

Respectfully,

littlepet

[denuseri]

I am happy we can agree to disagree.

I hope this will in no way effect our continued relationship here.

I do respect that you have your own opinions. I will however continue to rebut those expressions that I see as close minded and defend with verve my position on this topic.

As the Japanese say: "Absorb what is useful".

[littlepet]

Seri,

We were so close to happy lollipops and gummi bears but then close-minded came up. :P

Me thinking rape is wrong isn't close minded.

Me thinking that to subjugate any random woman because she "must" want it is wrong, is not close minded.

Me thinking that submission to men is not the nature of ALL women is not close minded.

Me thinking that for those women who do possess varying degrees of submission that most don't really secretly want to be fully owned by a male with no rights, is not close minded.

Me thinking John Norman is insane, is an obvious conclusion just by reading his insane rambling letter to his readers at the end of "Witness of Gor"

It's a little "special" in my opinion.

My evil commentary of the letter can be found here should anyone be so inclined:

http://gor-issues.wetpaint.com/page/...s+just+FICTION



At the end of the day what this comes down to is I think a certain author is a misogynist and a crazy person and that his books suck.

I'm not attacking your lifestyle. I'm attacking the books that are the basis. That might be a thin line to you and it might cross into too personal of a territory for you, and if so I apologize. It's not my desire to cause anyone any hurt feelings or emotional anguish (well except John Norman of course), but I think the man is insane.

And I can't just "NOT" critique a person I feel is a garden slug and his work, just because someone else decided he was wonderful and decided to base some major chunk of their life on him.

[littlepet]

Also, I have no bad feelings toward YOU, Seri. I think you are a nice person. I admire your fire and that you don't back down from a fight. I consider it an admirable quality and not just when i do it. :P I have no hostile feelings toward you. You simply have different views than I do on a series of books and an author. And both of us consider our sides very important to us. because it's not just a "book" or "series of books" it's an attitude.

You feel that your lifestyle isn't understood. I feel that you can live however you want but that Norman should be on a thorazine drip and not allowed to mingle with the populace.

[denuseri]

Yes exactly lilpet..an attitude indeed.....

That i see all too often mis-interperated by people that are unable to seperate the fictional portrayal of a setting in a book, from the inherient philosophical virtues expoused by the writter of truth , honor and love found between the lines through out the volume of its bredth.

I never said you had to see it my way.

and i say this with all due respect:

from my perch in this tree, that to say you are not attacking my beliefs all the while you continue to chop and chop over and over with the same ax (argument) at the basis of my beliefs (or its roots tht being the books) seems to me a bit to much to swallow as is.

I am out, this is beyound thread drift, for this topic. Pm me if u really wish to continue or have something "new" to contribute.

Even if you dont agree with my terminology.

May you find peace my sister of the collar.

[littlepet]

I agree, this discussion has become tired. I'm not trying to attack you personally, feel however you wish. Not once did I in any way misinterpret anything about your lifestyle because I have no clue WHAT you do, nor does it matter to me one way or the other as long as it's consensual and you are happy. My discussion about the amorality of the novels was just that. I made clear many times I think Norman's views about women are wrong, even outside the novels. I'm not sure how much more explicit I could have gotten.

And when I say I believe Norman's philosophies are wrong, I mean...Factually incorrect. Though I do think the man is also a misogynist, but I'm fairly certain that point got through the noise of everything else I said.