BDSM And Feminism: Intertwined? How So?

[DowntownAmber]

It seems the "Old School" thread has gotten hijacked just a ticky, so I thought a thread for the offshoot conversation might be worthwhile.

Do you consider yourself a "feminist?" What is your definition of one? Do you have a negative or positive view of feminists in general? Does feminism affect your day to day? How does it play into your BSDM lifestyle?

Answer what you want, ignore what you don't, add anything you think deserves to be covered.

Go crazy!

[Euryleia]

Do you consider yourself a "feminist?"

Very much so.

What is your definition of one?

It is fairly broad--Feminism refers to my belief in social, political, sexual and economic equality between men and women. At its most essential, feminism is the effort to choose what is right for me and what makes me whole irregardless of societal or gender roles.

Do you have a negative or positive view of feminists in general?

Highly positive. From the women who were pioneers in their fields to the waves of modern feminists, all people have benefited from the efforts to make things more inclusive and their encouragement that all women should be able to achieve their full potential.

Does feminism affect your day to day?

Yes, it colors how I view the world and my political conscience.

How does it play into your BSDM lifestyle?

The way that I see it, as long as the activity is consensual - as long as the parties are adults and mature enough to decide for themselves what makes them orgasm and what makes them feel whole, that the choices a woman makes in pursuit of her sexual satisfaction is her right as a human. Whether a particular woman is Dominant, submissive or switches between the roles, she is simply acting upon what makes her feel like a complete woman and is, therefore, exercising her feminism in the highest regard.

[GS42]

My view on the subject as a whole, not an answer to the questions posed.

I see BDSM and feminism as something entwined. The basic idea behind feminism as I've always seen it, is that women are equal to men and are free to make their own choices. The apparant paradox with a female submissive is quite obvious: how is she equal as a slave and how is she free if she has to obey (a man)?

What turns it all 'round is the fact that submissives make the choice to submit. I don't think anyone here would argue one person having a born right to rule someone else: it's all consensual. And if someone dreams of submitting, why should he/she not be allowed to? Feminists have worked hard to give women freedom to choose.

The only thing which does bug me is that some feminists clearly do not respect the choice of submissive women and think they should be protected from doing the wrong thing. This to me is an ultimate insult to both the submissives and the ideals of feminism.

And no, I never really considered myself a feminist.

[IAmCanadian]

Not sure if this has anything to do with anything but here's a view from my end:

I love feminism because it provides the sharpest contrast to misogyny, which I find to be a very erotic BDSM play element.

The reason is simple- if taboo is exciting, and taboo is based on deviation from the norm, then what is more of a deviation? A hooker begging for a slap in the face? Or a Riot Grrrl doing the same?

Feminism lends itself to rituals of servitude simply because it casts the extremity of the sacrifice being made into sharp relief. I could use a "doormat" as my footstool for an hour but what is she really giving up, when she has no convictions or self-esteem anyway? I wouldn't even want to do that, it would be like taking advantage of an invalid.

Now, a feminist serving as my footstool- that's a noteworthy gesture of submission. As a feminist she has a full grasp of the implications of her act, but she does it anyway. That's hot, and it proves more in terms of devotion and trust than a hundred meek and mouse-like submissives happily performing the same act.

- FS

[Emerson]

My short answer, as a male dominant...

I don't see any reason why a woman can't be a dominant, and a man a submissive. Each relationship is different, and the submission in a BDSM relationship is the result of individuals making choices for themselves, not - hopefully - the action of social repression and sexual discrimination.

As a man, I'm not sure I could say I'm a "feminist," per se, especially because of the transformation of the word "feminism" from a term refering to the emancipation of women from a real, unjust, and ingrained servitude into a term for a kind of fringy stereotype. I will say, though, that I respect the hell out of the feminist movement, and I am dismayed at what a cursory job most American History classes do of covering the remarkable efforts of women, especially in the 19th century. Feminism was not just about winning the vote, or the equality of women, but women were leading Abolitionists, and played a vital role in leading the labor fight against the robber-barons of the age.

While I hardly think women have truly won equality in the modern world, the progress made is partially responsible for making the modern, ironically egalitarian culture in the BDSM world possible.

[leo9]

I have always been a feminist, by instinct first and conviction later. Being bisexual helps: since my preference for dominating women is only a preference (men are fun, but women are cuddly), I never got it mixed up with my politics.

All my partners have been militant feminists whose view, like mine, was that if they chose to submit to a man in private that was their personal right. Like Seraph, I find it far more exciting to dominate and humble a strong woman who believes in her freedom. Femsubs who say things like "this worthless cunt is only of value when it has a Master" turn me right off (no offence, girls, it's just my taste - oh, wait, you wouldn't take offence anyway). On the other hand, if I can make a ball-breaking bitch say that in the throes of abject submission, =then= it's a massive charge.

My wife and I used to have a pair of badges that said I'M A FEMINIST AND SO IS MY MASTER / I'M A FEMINIST AND SO IS MY SLAVEGIRL. They started a lot of interesting conversations at conventions.

By the way, when my wife (who also switched) was still looking for malesubs to play with, one of the things that eventually made her give up was that the sort of men who said "I'm a feminist because I believe in the Superior Female" (their capitals) usually turned out to be hardcore male chauvinists the moment you got past the pose. Interesting, that.

[angela_shy]

Do you consider yourself a "feminist?"
yes although not militant in any way. i was a little bit in the past, but it brought me feelings of frustration - i'd see slights where none were intended. evidence of my historical rebellion: i still refer to myself as "Ms" and never adopted my spouse's surname.

What is your definition of one?
it's about empowerment to me - the equal rights of people, regardless of gender, to participate in society and interact on a personal level.

Do you have a negative or positive view of feminists in general?
Sadly negative. Germaine Greer etc... smiles. intellectual. humourless. a bit intimidating and sometimes so opinionated they are not receptive to other ideas. In this respect i am very much NOT a feminist... LOL

Does feminism affect your day to day?
it defines my name. it defines how i raise my daughter. i actively seek to empower her, and teach her she can be anything she wants if she works hard enough.
it also colours my marriage. i've been a bit militant in my views, and futilely head-butted against institutional sexism. Although i reject that strong emotion (militancy?) now, and i agree that sometimes opportunities should sometimes gender-biased, the experiences are not forgotten. i'm getting softer


How does it play into your BSDM lifestyle?
it's Very Early Days for me!
my softening of my views empowers me. i still have the ability to choose my path, but where once i'd have felt submission as counter to feminism, now i feel submission is the ultimate expression of my empowerment as a woman. it's my choice.
Old habits die hard however. i've changed most since i had my daughter. i finally admitted [hetero] men and women are psychologically different, and it was "OK" to be feminine... mind blowing experience! (Whatever "feminine" means.)

hmmm

*starts to contemplate the relationship between femininity and feminism...

[icey]

nope im not a feminist, im a woman in a mans AND womans world.
im not sure there actually is such a thing as feminism anymore at least not in the way it was originally the militant type if you want to call it that, like many things its become a part of society and life now and women are accepted as equals except by the odd few idiots who want to put on an act of ''manliness'' and even then id say they're bullys rather than anti-equal rights as such.
if there's such a thing as feminism these days then how come there isnt a ''masculinism''? because very often in todays society men are the ones who are often considered and treat as the weaker sex with less rights! by less rights i mean in the way of what they are expected to do/not do how to treat a woman/not treat her...if that makes any sense?

feminism was originally about women fighting for the right to be equal, have the vote, have the right to speak for themselves,have equal opportunities etc well as far as im aware we have that dont we? in fact we're usually the ''revered'' and most respected of the two sexes in general.
and in relation to bdsm i can never quite understand how the two could ever possibly be connected or questioned, because women have the right to choose whether or not they wish to be submissive or Dominant and unless in an abusive r/ship and forced into submission (which is a totally seperate issue from bdsm) then they're choosing to submit of there own free will they are able to make that choice because they have the right the freedom and the confidence to do so.

am probably going off at a tangent again sorry...they're just a few of my thoughts.

[PropertyOfMasterJoey]

i am a feminist by definition, but it's not something i like to refer to myself as one due to the negative connotation it has for me personally. i'm just someone who believes everyone is equal regardless of sex, race, religion, or sexuality and that shapes my bdsm life more than feminism alone.

[leo9]

feminism was originally about women fighting for the right to be equal, have the vote, have the right to speak for themselves,have equal opportunities etc well as far as im aware we have that dont we?

Except that women are still in the majority at the bottom end of the world of work, doing the shit jobs that they can't get men to do for the price, and in a minority in management that gets smaller the higher you go. If they're naturally equal, then the system is still loaded against them; you can't have it both ways.

and in relation to bdsm i can never quite understand how the two could ever possibly be connected or questioned, because women have the right to choose whether or not they wish to be submissive or Dominant and unless in an abusive r/ship and forced into submission (which is a totally seperate issue from bdsm) then they're choosing to submit of there own free will they are able to make that choice because they have the right the freedom and the confidence to do so.

Ah, these young folks...

Long, long ago, when a computer was a million-dollar toy for colleges and a mobile phone was a backpack radio, feminism was ripped apart by the issue of BDSM. Not, you understand, in the Mf sense or even Fm - in those days hard core feminists didn't have sex with men anyhow - but over whether it was politically OK for lesbians to do BDSM, or whether they were "internalising patriarchy" and should be re-educated to understand that violence and dominance were male vices shunned by properly empowered women.

There were a few holdouts still fighting the Lesbian SM Wars when I got involved in the '90s, so I know people weren't making this stuff up. If anyone's interested, "Coming to Power" by Samois is still available discussing the issues from our side, and Dworkin's various works probably give the best view of the other side.

[denuseri]

Do you consider yourself a "feminist?"
I am as far from it as possible! In so far as the overtly militant side of it's dogma is conserned. In fact I am more of a Trancendentalist or Nietzschean.

What is your definition of one?
the politically correct answer or what my heart says?
the pc answer is "its all about human rights etc"
my heart says via observation of how too many feminists portray themselves with sophist verve is: its apparently all about "emasculation" and vengence and the resulting self loathing that accompianies such behavior when the bio-ethical balance is upset.

Do you have a negative or positive view of feminists in general?
LMAO I think i answered that one allready

Does feminism affect your day to day?
Oh I don't know (all innocent and blind) does the fact that i have been force fed it allmost every single day of my life have anything to do with it? (smiles as i put my little beast back in my self) blushes

How does it play into your BSDM lifestyle?
fortunately i have a man that is strong enough to have seen past all the "feminist brainwashing" of the past few decades" and cheerish me like a woman deserves, which is why our relationship thrives

[blythe spirit]

I am most probably the one that "hijacked" J-Go's thread a "ticky," and for that I apologize.

To answer your questions in less than a novel-sized response is near impossible. As we know feminists date back as far as the 18th century. But to me, there is a big difference between "Women's Liberation" in an era where women were to be seen and not heard, to the modern day "Feminist Movement," where a group of misandrist plotted to do away with men altogether. I am speaking of the radicals, who gave feminists the "bad name."

There were "strong" women in all eras and their names went down in history. They rebelled against patriarchy, where women had their names dirtied by men for "taking a stand." Mary Magdolene might be one such woman, who was falsely accused of being a "prostitute" by the patriachy, because of her political beliefs and for speaking her mind.

Anway, I shant go off on a tangent; however, if by definition a "feminist" is one who believes that women have the right to speak their minds, vote their political conscience, hold the same positions and earn the same wages as a man, etc., then I, too, am a feminist, along with Elenor Roosevelt, Amelia Earhart, Dorothy Parker, Helen Keller and a plethora of other strong leaders in history.

On the other hand, if it means beating men down to nothingness and obliterating them entirely, then I am not a feminist. If I have to agree that a woman is nothing but a "man's slave" if she so chooses to be a homemaker and stay-at-home mom, then I disagree wholeheartedly with their plight.

As I stated in the "other" thread, women have gained the right to go out and work 8 and 12 hours a day and then come home and cook, clean, do laundry, ready the kids for bed, etc. and still have the energy to be sexy for her man. This statement was posted half jokingly, but in part, is truth, because a lot of men have yet to catch up with the "feminist movement" and still believe that the above mentioned are "women's chores."

As was once thought by men that they did not need women for anything other than sex and to bear children, it is now fact that women do not need men...even for that.

Being a homemaker, wife, mother, used to be a noble profession, and it's been proven that a man could not afford to pay a homemaker's worth in salary. Unfortunately, it is, of course, near impossible for a man to have the luxury of a homemaker with today's ecomonomy. That's a whole other story, though.

In "fighting" for women's rights in such a radical way, I believe we, as women have given up a great deal of our right to femininity and until we stop using the word "fight" (as someone much more intelligent than I stated) we will continue to be at war.

*laughing* I probably didn't answer but one of your questions. Sorry.

[claire]

I am most probably the one that "hijacked" J-Go's thread a "ticky," and for that I apologize.

Darn it, I wanted credit for that hijack. My post was before yours.

Yes I am a feminist, in terms of equal rights. No I am not a militant feminist wanting to get rid of all men and treating women as superior. Anyone who thinks women have achieved equal rights has not looked at labor statistics that clearly show the women with the same degree of education and experience, still make less than men.

In most of the two parent families that I know of, the woman is still the primary care giver for the children and the one expected to take time off for sick children etc. Cooking and household chores seem rarely to divided equitably either. I am not saying to be equal that each person should do half of each type of chore. We all have individual preferences and talents. What I oppose is a division of labor where a woman must do a double shift. First putting in an 8 hour day for wages, then coming home and putting in an 8 hour day there. The studies I've seen show that men put in many fewer hours at home than women do.

Now maybe this is all just part of me showing my age. Maybe the younger generation does have a more equitable arrangement. I might be like the people who said Obama isn't black enough because he didn't go through the civil rights era and isn't still carrying the frustrations of being part of an underclass. Yet, I would argue, that like minorities, women still have not gained full equality. Why else would the media have talked about Hilary Clinton putting cracks in the glass ceiling?

As far as it influences my life, well it did take me a couple of decades or so to realize that being feminine did not contradict being a feminist. Now I would argue just the opposite. Embracing our femininity and the differences between men and women and valuing those differences, should be the focus of today's feminism. As far as how it effects my BDSM life, well feminism is about having equal opportunities and choices and that means I can choose to be a sub or a Dom or neither or both.

[blythe spirit]

Darn it, I wanted credit for that hijack. My post was before yours.

I will be more than happy to share the blame with you. I took the blame, cos I didn't want to point a finger...but -
hehehe.

[Ragoczy]

Do you consider yourself a "feminist?"

No, I don't consider myself a feminist. If anything on that topic, I think I'd characterize myself an "equalist", meaning that I believe in equal pay, rights, etc.

Not that I think men and women are entirely "equal", because differences in biology and mental processes do, in general, create things that men and women are, in general, each better at than the other.

What is your definition of one?

When I think "feminist", I think N.O.W. Which makes me think of someone who denigrates mothers who've chosen to stay home with their children and someone who minimizes the importance of fathers in children's lives.

Do you have a negative or positive view of feminists in general?

Negative.

[SnickerKitten]

No, I do not consider myself a feminist. In my view, feminism cheapens what it means to be a woman.

I will say, that in the work force I absolutely believe that women should be paid the same as men and have all the opportunities available to men. Course, if you really want to get into it deep, I also believe that all children in a two parent home should have a parent at home with them. I don't believe it should always be the mother, but I do believe that it should be a parent. Don't get all up in my face about how the majority of families can't afford that and what not because if one parent in every two parent family quit their job to stay home that would diminish the available workforce by a huge percentage (NOT gonna do the research right now to figure out what it would be!) and therefore the demand for the available workforce would go up and thus so would the pay. Nevermind all that though, there are many other issues with our society today to be handled before that one!

As far as being "equal" to a man, there is NO man out there that I am equal to. In my book, there is no equality between men and women. I am a treasure to prized. I am a lady. Gentlemen should open doors for me, rise when I join the table, take my hand as I exit a car, pay when on a date, etc. Fortunately, I have found a gentleman who knows how to cherish a woman and I reward him with my undying love and honor him with my submission.

-kitten

[Hime]

I am a radical feminist and a switch. I think that feminism and BDSM can be a good combination, since being a feminist means being keenly aware of power relationships and how they relate to sexuality. It also means celebrating a woman's right to decide what she wants in a sexual relationship and actively look for it. I consider it a great victory for women that there are so many women and girls here, submissive and dominant, who have thought through what their own sexual needs and desires are and pursued those desires in their relationships, instead of just trying to accommodate the desires of a man.

My opinions about feminists in general are mixed. I think that a lot of feminists are out there doing great work to make our society more accepting of gender differences. I also think that the feminist movement over the years has been overly dominated by upper- and middle- class, straight, white women who have often been dismissive of the concerns of lesbian and bi women, women of color, poor women and trans people (since both MTFs and FTMs have to deal with sexism and misogyny). I can understand why a lot of women are uncomfortable describing themselves as feminists because of these problems, although personally I believe that the movement has the potential to move past its problematic history and grow into a more universal project.

A lot of people here seem to have some misconceptions about what a feminist is. Being a radical or militant feminist does NOT mean wanting to get rid of men or make them slaves to women -- that's being a female separatist, or a male sub with an overactive imagination. A few useful terms:

Liberal feminists are people who believe that men and women should be equal in the eyes of the law, meaning they believe in equal pay laws, reproductive rights, laws against sexual harassment, domestic violence, etc.

Radical feminists believe that patriarchy (the male-dominated hierarchy that largely defines Western culture) is too entrenched to be changed by law alone, and work to change the culture itself, not just the government. A radical feminist might focus on balancing gender representation in the media, organizing anti-sexual assault campaigns on campuses, or encouraging women to accept their bodies as they are.

Womanists are women who believe in some or all of the principles of gender equality, but choose not to identify as feminists because they see the feminist movement as exclusive of gay, trans or non-white women.

Female separatists are feminists who believe that it is destructive for women to have relationships with men, and that all women should be lesbians instead. This was mostly a 1960s/70s movement that hasn't really remained relevant, and it's rare to encounter one these days. As a woman who enjoys dating and sleeping with women, I'm really annoyed by female separatists, because the ones I've encountered online have this obnoxious tendency to co-opt lesbianism for their own purposes without actually being sexually attracted to women themselves. I suspect that a lot of them are really asexual, rather than gay, since the thought that some lesbians actually enjoy sex often seems to bother them.

[damyanti]

I suppose that depends on your (often skewed) definition of what feminist is.

I find those women who say that they are not feminists to be spoiled, rude and ungrateful. And also ignorant, because one of the meanings of the word feminist is to be of feminine character. So if you are not feminine, what are you, butch?

If we dare to judge a religion based on the war mongering of the extremists there are always those who will say "shut up you racist hater", and yet it is completely acceptable to bash all women who identify themselves as feminists based on some caricature or a small group of dellusional radicals.

Women died so that you could have a choice. Yes, YOU! They were tortured and prosecuted in a manner that some of you are terribly casual about. And thats not even counting all the women condmned just for daring to show that they have a brain.

Its a horrible matter of things that only a small percentage of women on this planet enjoy it (relative freedom) and yet we now want to stiffle it there too. More than half of Earths population are women, yet they only make 1% of its rich and the most of its poor. Even in countries that we are talking about (a few professions aside) women with equal qualifications are regularly paid less than their male counterparts.
And we are still laregly judged based solely on how we look and how we dress.

Being a feminist isnt about being the one thing, its about the right to be a woman and that we are valued for it.

To me Helen Gurley Brown is as much of a feminist icon as Susan B. Anthony.

Yes, I agree, that in some western countries certain things have went too far...but its once again a matter of women having to be responsible for everything. It, of course, has nothing to do with men being lazy and spoiled and twisting things by thinking that now that women are "liberated" it means that in adddition to going to work, cooking, cleaning, and looking after the children they also now have the right to change their own tires.

How exactly are feminists responsible that men cant keep up? I must have missed the part in the feminist manifesto where it says that wanting equal pay and the right to expression somehow amounts to men becoming rude and unmotivated.

Yes, its all feminist fault. It would have nothing to do with consumerism, technological development, increase in the population, mobility of the people, the fact that teaching etiquette in schools has been deemed uncool and worthless...

I am a feminist. I expect to be treated equally in all things. And I think that when it comes to "romance" men should be men and women are to be treated as ladies.

But men are rarely men anymore, and paradoxaly thats often down to overindulgent stay at home moms. An example: a lady in question was a high powered corporate manager who quit her job to raise her children, an older boy and a girl. Last year a girl started school. But seeing her take them to school is a real telling sight...her little daughter carries (struggles, really) her own bag, and she is teaching her to mend for herself and to be independent. Mom however carries her sons bag, and openly admits that she is softer on him and that she tends to "cuddle" him more and do things for him that she expects her daughter to do for herself.

Personally, (I am not that old)...I couldnt wait for my mom to go back to work after my brother was born. Its true that her career for a long time took back seat to my dads, but I cant exspress how much I was always proud of her for working. I love my mother, but the thought of her as a stay at home mom fills me with horror. The trick is in balance.
Of course, I have to admit, when it comes to my brother my mom was no better than the lady in the above example.

Sorry ladies, you cant have it both ways. You cant say I am not a feminist, but I want choice and equal pay. You want want want...well, sorry, but without feminits you are nothing but a pair of tits and an ass and nobody cares what you want.

*I appologies for crude language, but I was demonstrating a point.*

[damyanti]

As for how it plays into my bdsm thing...other than I have a right to make this choice for myself...it doesnt.

I submit because I am submissive, but I am not submissive because I am a woman.

[AdrianaAurora]

I already answered this before in another thread, some time ago, to me feminism isnt about belittling men, but empowering women.

My husband cooks and canes my ass. I make bed and vacume and gladly place myself over His knee. We are a modern household, lol.

I am pretty happy with Him and His attitude. And I think He is a pretty good example of how a modern man should be - a delightful blend of New Age sensitivity and Old World manners. When it comes to work He is "an equal opportunity bastard", lol, but in everything else He treats women as equal and as ladies. He does have a machismo attitude when it comes to women who make the first move, He absolutely cant stand it, (but I am not exactly going to complain about that, lol).

I am a feminist and proud of it.

But I notice that both those who call themselves Feminists and those who claim that they arent one, want the same thing only under different label!

Another interesting off shoot to this thread could be - why are women so mean to women?

I work in an old boys club profession, and the stories I could tell you about sexist remarks and put downs I had to and still do tolerate, and things I have seen when travelling abroad, would make your blood boil.

Ultimately, however, it comes down to ones ability to do the job and men get used to it, to me. But women - it doesnt matter how nice, smart and qualified you are - if you are percieved as younger and prettier, watch your back!
All the horror stories I have about working with men are child play compared to those I have of working with single, middle age women (as a superior, equal or an employe). *shudder*

[leo9]

My husband cooks and canes my ass. I make bed and vacume and gladly place myself over His knee. We are a modern household, lol.

Yep, that's how it was for me and my wife. I cooked, kept house and whipped her in chains. She went out to work and ordered men around, came home and knelt for punishment. Balanced roles...

[leah06]

Liberal feminists are people who believe that men and women should be equal in the eyes of the law. . . .

Radical feminists believe that patriarchy (the male-dominated hierarchy that largely defines Western culture) is too entrenched . . .

Womanists are women who . . . choose not to identify as feminists because they see the feminist movement as exclusive of gay, trans or non-white women.

Female separatists are feminists who believe that it is destructive for women to have relationships with men . . .

What do you think of lipstick feminists? Here's a quote from Wikipedia:

Lipstick feminism also referred to as "stiletto feminism" or "slut feminism" [1] is a branch of feminism in which it is not seen as contradictory to both be a feminist and to put on a show to attract men/women. Besides the acceptance of makeup that the title implies, lipstick feminists also do not find stripping, pole dancing, flashing, girl-on-girl exhibitionism, or sometimes even glorification of prostitution to be in conflict with feminism. Lipstick feminism also associates sex with power and the power of sexual allure as power over men.

A more mild degree of lipstick feminism allows proponents to call themselves feminists while still wearing make-up, suggestive clothing such as short skirts, revealing tops, high heels, and other female-specific clothing and accessories usually shunned by more traditional feminists. Also, in milder forms it allows for a feminism that is in favor of equality under the law, equal pay, and other concrete demands for gender equality, but does not take issue with the effect of modern media and culture on gender relations. Many feminists see lipstick feminism as a contradictory philosophy in which women willingly objectify themselves while calling it empowerment.

I find this interesting in the context of feminism and bdsm, because in the cases of both lipstick feminism and female submission, you have women who choose to adopt, at the very least, behaviors that are in apparent conflict with traditional feminist theory. These women assert (or could assert) that because these behaviors are the result of automonous choice and not imposed on them by a patriarchal society, they are compatible with, and even a reflection of, feminist ideals. As the last sentence of the Wikipedia article shows, there are other feminists who still adhere to the concept of false consciousness.

I also find this interesting because of the explicit connection between sexual choices and power relations.

[blythe spirit]

A lot of people here seem to have some misconceptions about what a feminist is. Being a radical or militant feminist does NOT mean wanting to get rid of men


Radical feminists believe that patriarchy (the male-dominated hierarchy that largely defines Western culture) is too entrenched to be changed by law alone, and work to change the culture itself, not just the government. A radical feminist might focus on balancing gender representation in the media, organizing anti-sexual assault campaigns on campuses, or encouraging women to accept their bodies as they are.

Female separatists are feminists who believe that it is destructive for women to have relationships with men, and that all women should be lesbians instead. This was mostly a 1960s/70s movement that hasn't really remained relevant, and it's rare to encounter one these days. As a woman who enjoys dating and sleeping with women, I'm really annoyed by female separatists, because the ones I've encountered online have this obnoxious tendency to co-opt lesbianism for their own purposes without actually being sexually attracted to women themselves. I suspect that a lot of them are really asexual, rather than gay, since the thought that some lesbians actually enjoy sex often seems to bother them.

Granted,feminism became fanatical and ugly in the 1960s; however, Gloria Steinem, who said "We don't just want to destroy capitalism, we want to tear down the whole f____ patriarchy" was considered a "militant feminist" not a "separatist." NOW was considered a "terrorist organization" that wanted to dissolve "traditional" family life completely, referring to it as a "comfortable concentration camp from which women needed to be liberated."

The problem, as I see it, is that all "feminists" good and bad were lumped into one category known as the "Women's Movement."

Being a feminist isnt about being the one thing, its about the right to be a woman and that we are valued for it.

Women, imho, always had value. Even when they were nothing more then chattel, albeit a very singular type of property. They had value because they alone could "give birth."

I would venture to say that more men "died" in history to protect that which was his, namely womenfolk, than those women who faught to be liberated from gentlemenfolk, who rose when a lady entered the room, who opened doors and relieved her from heavy labor and protected her reputation.

Even the lowliest of woman escaped first from the Titanic. I just wonder, if the boys being raised today would not push their way past these women to extricate themselves from the sinking ship...because women are now just as equal as they?

And when it's all taken into account, all we really have is the right to complain that we still don't have the equality that our foremothers intended.

[damyanti]

Women, imho, always had value. Even when they were nothing more then chattel, albeit a very singular type of property. They had value because they alone could "give birth."

I would venture to say that more men "died" in history to protect that which was his, namely womenfolk, than those women who faught to be liberated from gentlemenfolk, who rose when a lady entered the room, who opened doors and relieved her from heavy labor and protected her reputation.

Even the lowliest of woman escaped first from the Titanic. I just wonder, if the boys being raised today would not push their way past these women to extricate themselves from the sinking ship...because women are now just as equal as they.

Sorry, blythespirit, but having value and being valued are two very different things.

If it gives you pleasure to blame other women knock yourself out, but you have a very romanticized and very inaccurate view of history.

And your last paragraph...how does being good at my job and wanting freedom to make my own decisions, ends up equal asking to be pushed around and treated rudely? Boys are being raised to disrespect women because women are equal now? So they don't respect other men, their friends, fathers? And please look around...women are still far from being equal.



(This isnt directed at you! I just didn't feel like double posting)

It has been my experience that women who proclaim that they are not feminists are the ones who just want to stay home, go shopping, do nothing and have a "sponsor" who pays for it all and are too conceited to lift a finger. They want to be treated like a lady. In Europe we call them WAGs, and if thats a lady,...I prefer to buy my own handbags. To me a man is a person, not a wallet.

[denuseri]

Skips in, stops all of the sudden and looks up at the pretty post. Puts my hands to my chin and cringes down a little bit with an audible gasp...........

"It has been my experience that women who proclaim that they are not feminists are the ones who just want to stay home, go shopping, do nothing and have a "sponsor" who pays for it all and are too conceited to lift a finger. They want to be treated like a lady. In Europe we call them WAGs, and if thats a lady,...I prefer to buy my own handbags. To me a man is a person, not a wallet. " by damyanti

OMG damy: WOW by this quote of standards above I must be like a new type of feminist the UBER-FEME-A-Excellente!!!! ,(best James earl Jones meets Ricardo Montaban and Grace Jones voice I can squeak out) You know the type that whorships her "man-sponser" like he is a little demigod. ( nodding a lot)

I mean like gosh! I allmost am like allways doing "something" as opposed to nothing, I am like never home, shopping is like somthing I never have time to do, like well other than buying food to feed everyone when I cook, (even on E-bay) I am like allways off working instead of being home...like I have two jobs even,, (does the "I couldve had a V8 face)..I am sure of it now!`

I am Femanist Suprema Maimila!!,

oh~ wait I am also his professional house maid, cook, and all around slut too, sooooo that actually cums to like (counts on my fingers) FIVE!!..five jobs I am holding down.

Thanks for pointing it out and forgive this silly girl's fuzzy math.



..........Skips out whistleing Dixie

[blythe spirit]

If it gives you pleasure to blame other women knock yourself out, but you have a very romanticized and very inaccurate view of history.

Frankly, damyanti, I have not romanticized history, I was part of it. No, I wasn't on the Titantic. lol. And I'm not blaming other women. Perhaps you should reread my posts (all of them).

I do, however, think the "militants" and the "terrorists" have a great deal to do with the demise of chivalry. It was to a point where men would actually ask, "Is it okay for me to hold the door for you?" Poor guys had absolutely no clue what was and was not proper anymore. And I don't think their fear was brought about by other men out there.

Long before you, there were women out there holding pregtigious positions that they worked hard to get. It was their "choice" to do so. As to your last statement, I think you confirmed what some of us said, about being looked down upon by "radicals" whose belief is that any woman, who "chooses" to stay at home is nothing.

Thank you, denuseri, for pointing out the many (more than five) responsibilities that homemakers hold without renumeration. I, for one, chose career over marriage and had to do battle on a daily basis "breaking" into a man's world. It wasn't an easy task, but I learned early on that I caught more flies with honey. *winks* Later on in life, I did marry. Strangely, a man with very old-fashioned ethics.

As far as the way boys are being brought up, I would hope that women being equal doesn't mean that boys should treat them rudely; however, I have yet to see equality in the work place or in the home, but I have observed boys treating little girls disrespectfullly.

[damyanti]

LOL denuseri, that posts wasnt about you and you know it. Just as you know that WAGs do exist and their mantra is "I am a girls girl and not a feminist".

And, darling, you may not wish to call yourself one, but you are a feminist. In fact, you are my feminist girl icon. (and I considered you that before this thread, so

[denuseri]

Giggles I just figured i better point out the irony in stereotyping catagorically.

"I find those women who say that they are not feminists to be spoiled, rude and ungrateful. And also ignorant, because one of the meanings of the word feminist is to be of feminine character. So if you are not feminine, what are you, butch? " by damyanti

Just to use myself as an example:

Again I must say I most certianly am not a feminist.

I have never been spolied other than to have good gender based role models for parents and a Master that puts my life above his own.

Admitably I am sometimes rude, but I am working on it.

No one that I have had contact with to my knowledge has said I am ungrateful, heck I even thank the dominants in my life for spanking my ass among other things winks (IE: OWWWW! two! Slut thanks Master! may she have another? )

I am far to much of a girlie girl (despite being raised rather tomboyishly) with a out of control hello kitty fettish to be even remotely accosiated with being "butch".

Ignorance might be bliss, but the little korean boy that heads the chess team in the honors room at school does fear my approch for a reason, and it's not becuase I have nice legs or a naughty nature that knows when he is looking at my mouth he is thinking about anything but the game (licks my lips). It's actually probabley got more to do with something about my wicked end game or the way I out think him.

Historically speaking:

The conseptualization of what it means to be "feminine" ergo to be "female" existed for tens of thousands of years perhaps even longer (even before "language" fully developed) which is a far better example of precedance than any recent mis-conseptualization by the so called feminists....... who have managed to twist and transvaluate values (to quote niestche).

So I find the your statement saying it must be this or that (feminist or butch) indicative of sophistry as it is a catagorically spurious corelation with little relevance to any logic in your argument other than to attempt to invoke an emotional responce instead of apealing to reason.

Just for paradoxical purposes:

If I am a feminist then you are a kajira!

And, darling, you may not wish to call yourself one, but you are a kajira. In fact, you are my kajira girl icon in waiting. (and I considered you that before this thread. (winks)

[damyanti]

If I am a feminist then you are a kajira!

And, darling, you may not wish to call yourself one, but you are a kajira. In fact, you are my kajira girl icon in waiting. (and I considered you that before this thread. (winks)

( I actually quite like that, thanks)


Fine, let me ask you this - what does it mean to be a feminist? Who is a feminist?


Because to me being a feminist means that I am respected as a human being, that my opinions are not rejected just because I am a woman, or my "place" predetermined just by my gender. Because yes, if you say that you are not a feminist, then what are you? To me it means that you have a mold, into which women should fit.

But to me thats just it, you cant put all women down into a mold as if they all want the same thing. Just as all women don't want to be touched the same way, not all women want their doors held. Just because most women choose so called female professions, why does that mean that the one who wants to be a truck driver has to go through hell and all the put downs, and even antagonism from other women because she is not "a lady"?

To me feminism is about freedom and choice, many choices - a freedom to be a kajira, a stay at home mum, a carpenter, not to marry, and a right to do with your body as you want - so when someone says "I am not a feminist," what I hear is, "Only my choice is right, and all the others who don't fall into that mold, should be forcefully brought into the flock or eliminated". Because thats what it comes down to, so I have an equal distaste for those "militant" feminists and those who puff their chest and say that they aren't - because to me its a sign of ultimate disrespect and ungratefulness to all those women who came before them (throughout history) and fought to break the mold.



And off topic, you cant, in every, argument accuse someone of sophism. I wont even go into the argument about what Sophism really was or is. But in the derogatory sense that you are so fond of using, the prime example of it is, accusing another of sophistry as a persuasion technique.

[blythe spirit]

Historically speaking:

The conseptualization of what it means to be "feminine" ergo to be "female" existed for tens of thousands of years perhaps even longer (even before "language" fully developed) which is a far better example of precedance than any recent mis-conseptualization by the so called feminists....... who have managed to twist and transvaluate values (to quote niestche).

Thank you, again. This is basically what I referred to in my original post.

And, damyanti, thank you for "coming around." Your last paragraph (in bold) differs dramatically from your last paragraph in post #24. I believe that all women want their voice, but to be heard we sometimes have to whisper.