So long but not Goodbye

[Ocean_Soul]

So I wonder after all this will the room be somehow bettered by the extreme (IMO) actions taken. No longer plagued by the hate, bickering, and overall bad atmosphere that apparently must have existed in the previous room.

I'm at least glad that only 1 to 49 people had to be banned for the betterment of the 5000+ active members of the chat for it to become a better place and not some greater number (50+).

Maybe things will be better now. We shall see.

[SheepishJaina]

I did not mean to suggest that it is only a Dom/Domme that is offensive. I have seen subs be offensive. And I will admit, In the situation I mentioned above, I was probably offensive myself in a self defense way.

I have also seen people be repeatedly asked not to PM without asking. A particular person, really, but again I am not one to mention names. I have only seen one mod in the chat room do something about this. He was warned, and then kicked. That is the one and only time I have seen this happen. And this person is a repeat repeat offender and one who hardly "chats" in chat. Just kinda trolls.
Again, I think something needs to be done. There needs to be consistancy involved where rules are concerned. Cuz if there isnt, then really no ban is fair.


girl

If someone is constantly PMing you in chat without permission, Ask a mod to PM, and then tell them who it is. We can't stop those we don't know about. If there is no mod in the room at the time, Use the PrtScn button to take a screen shot of the unwanted PM, paste it to a photo/mspaint program, and save it, then email it to AC. Also, Many times new folks don't bother to read the rules about PMs, tell them in the main room (not the PM, as this will only perpetuate their PMing) that they have to ask permission and gain it in order to PM.

[goodgirl_85]

If someone is constantly PMing you in chat without permission, Ask a mod to PM, and then tell them who it is. We can't stop those we don't know about. If there is no mod in the room at the time, Use the PrtScn button to take a screen shot of the unwanted PM, paste it to a photo/mspaint program, and save it, then email it to AC. Also, Many times new folks don't bother to read the rules about PMs, tell them in the main room (not the PM, as this will only perpetuate their PMing) that they have to ask permission and gain it in order to PM.

In my case, I told the person a few times in the room, and then a Mod PMed me, telling me to tell them if the person Pmed me again. When he did, the person was warned, and then kicked.

However, I only mentioned it because the person that was PMing me, IS NOT NEW. I have never seen him actually TALK in the chat room. And I have seen him be told by other members (not mods) to not pm them unless they ask and I have seen this more once. And I have never seen him kicked except the one case. And he has been told both when mods are and are not in the room.

My point is, shouldn't he in all contents and purposes, be banned, for repeated failure to follow rules.


girl

[SheepishJaina]

I'm quite sure I know whom you mean, and if its the person I'm thinking of, we need the proof, documented proof (screen shots) of them PMing, and then they will be banned for failure to follow the rules.

[goodgirl_85]

I would think people constantly telling this person not to pm them without permission would be enough... and no offense sheep, as you are one of the ones i spoke about in my original post in this thread, but you can not say that he will be banned. It has been posted in this very thread that yes mods can ban someone but not permanently. Only AC has that power. And really now, how many people are going to take screen shots. I for one dont even know how to do that. He has been kicked by a mod at least once. Others have complained about him.... You would think that would be enough proof to know that he is not following chat rules.

[Ocean_Soul]

What's wrong with ignoring them? They have to be severely mentally disabled to be able to carry on PMs if they get nothing but ignored. And to ignore them all you have to do is look one line down. About 1/8" for most people.

[goodgirl_85]

Actually for me, it would be closing a box. For those who dont know there is a way ... i think in the settings section... to have your pms automatically pop up in a box.

I dont mind ignoring them, I was just making a point, as people are saying if you break rules you are out. There is no consistancy it seems, in the chat rooms. And by having no consistancy it makes all bans seem unfair and baised.

Why should Red, whom is loved by many in the chats, get banned when someone who hardly even talks in the room, and CONSISTENTLY breaks the rules is not banned? Because the powers that be say so? That makes it not fair. And again people are left with the thought of "which rules are ok to break this week and which are not"

girl

[Ocean_Soul]

Actually for me, it would be closing a box. For those who dont know there is a way ... i think in the settings section... to have your pms automatically pop up in a box.

I dont mind ignoring them, I was just making a point, as people are saying if you break rules you are out. There is no consistancy it seems, in the chat rooms. And by having no consistancy it makes all bans seem unfair and baised.

Why should Red, whom is loved by many in the chats, get banned when someone who hardly even talks in the room, and CONSISTENTLY breaks the rules is not banned? Because the powers that be say so? That makes it not fair. And again people are left with the thought of "which rules are ok to break this week and which are not"

Nods, I see where you were going. But you know people are just going to respond with the default "well if I heard about it I would have done something about it." Red was loved so therefore high profile and anything she might do is noticed. In a system where what you contribute to the group means nothing it's easy for the popular ones to get banned, maybe. Or maybe a mod was insulted and made good use of their power to solve their personal problem.

[SheepishJaina]

Now wait just a second.. You have never PMed me in chat about someone bothering you with PMs, so don't throw back in my face that I've not done anything. I may not be able to perma ban someone, but when I do ban a person, I email AC and he then perma bans them. I also told you in my post above how to take a screenshot. (hit PrtScn paste to a photo program, save)

Also, if you say in the main room that someone is PMing without permission, I speak to that person in PMs, so the whole room doesn't see the exchange. Just complaining about someone is not proof that they are actually breaking the rules. We know its going on, but without hard proof, I refuse to actually ban someone.

[cariad]

Please can this thread be kept to a discussion of the more general issues rather than slipping into the rights and wrongs of a particular situation.

Sheepish, thank you for the point about taking screenshots and saving them, and of course if the PM appears in the main chat screen it can be saved as part of the room log. As a side point, screenshots can also be pasted into things like word documents and saved there (just because not everyone is familiar using photo editing software).

However, I fear that I have to say in the current atmosphere which includes accusations of modification of room logs, screen shots, or series of screen shots are the best 'evidence'.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr - has a part of this site which I once saw as a second home, and which helped me through a very difficult time, really slipped, for whatever reason, to a state where I have to say that.

Very, very sad.

cariad

[Widget]

I too don't know all the politics and the things that have led to this thread being started. I do respect all the people that are posting in here and I wish to state again how proud I am that you are able to discuss this without things becoming a he said she said situation.

Very little post editing goes on here unless its breaking site rules and those of you who have been mods know this, those of us who are mods have to leave things here that we may not agree with if its not a flame or breaking rules. I do think that there (I hope so anyway) is not much more to say on this topic as I know that the chat admin knows this is here and has read it. Your voices have been heard.

I AM going to go into the chat room because I like to say hi in real life when I have time to all the people whos posts are so interesting and get to know them a bit better, I hope that some of you will wander in again and things will become better.

I for the most part do believe that (and maybe i am being an optimist in human nature) everyone here wants to be part of a great online community and the chat room is no exception. I am willing to give things a chance to improve, I hope that everyone here is as well.

Just my two cents as a member, not a moderator of this forum.

[Warbaby1943]

OK as a complete stranger to the chat room but trying to follow this thread I must ask, does "PM" have a different meaning in the chat room than it does here in the forum?

[Guest 91108]

Warbaby .. a PM in chat brings up a window similar to an IM window between you and one other. The Initial chat page under rules says that permission has to be asked chat room before PMing .. not in PM . Many new people often violate that rule as they do not take time to read and/or adhere to it.

[Warbaby1943]

Warbaby .. a PM in chat brings up a window similar to an IM window between you and one other. The Initial chat page under rules says that permission has to be asked chat room before PMing .. not in PM . Many new people often violate that rule as they do not take time to read and/or adhere to it.

Thanks Wolf

[Guest 91108]

No problem.

[Tasker]

I was going to let this one go, but I just kept coming back to it and gritting my teeth. I'm actually surprised it hasn't been edited, but...~shrugs~

Tasker, your reasons for wanting to moderate a chat room are good and very admirable. I think the problem is that there are quite a few of us who have stopped enjoying chat and having fun with friends, especially if said friends are getting banned. If they deserve to get banned, then so be it. By all means, ban them. But, I will never, for one second, believe that Red deserved it. Now for you to go on and basically say that those of us who disagree with the way things are going in chat nowadays are wanting to "play silly games"...~shakes my head~ Not nice. Everyone is entitled to their opinion...I am...and you are. I just find it odd that by disagreeing or stating a differing opinion, now suddenly we are all playing silly games?

Do I miss Library chat? Sure I do. I miss all my friends in there. I miss the fun. But I refuse to go back...until something changes. Until then I guess I will just gather up my friends and go play silly games with them in a different chatroom. ~rme~ Anyone up for a game of Monopoly? lol

babt_girl(W) My sincerest appologies if my previous comment appeared to be directed at you. It was not. Reading back over my original post I can see I made the error of generalising way too much in an effort to avoid naming names.

The orginal one was about a small group that was started and has seem to have grown all due to the fact that someone complained to their S/O that they had been banned from chat and when in fact they HAD NOT been at the time and spiraled downhill from there. Unfortunatly others then jumped on the bandwagon, some for reasons of their own, some with an axe to grind, and some because they wanted to believe their friend.

The whole situation IMHO is sad as there have been members that have left of their own accord over this.

PMs without permission. Let a Mod know. I NEVER let that one pass without the PMer being at first given a polite warning, in the main room, that PMing without obtaining permission in the main room is not allowed. As sheepy has stated, we need to know who is doing it before we can deal with the problem.

One thing to bear in mind when you see a ban occur in chat. You do not know how many times that particular person may have been warned about their behaviour or breach of rules. Most warnings happen via PM. the room does not see this, nor should they. Peolpe do make mistakes, so they get a first polite warning in PM. The sole exception to this I use is for a first time PM without permission. This also lets everyone know and reminds them of that rule.

[goodgirl_85]

Sheep- I was not throwing anything in your face. Nor was I trying say that you weren't doing your job. All i was saying was that it seems the rules are being enforced inconsistently and that is one particular situation in which I can personally adhere to.

You say you know who it is I am talking about, you say others know it is going on... well point blank... He has been kicked from chat at least once because of this, and told politely by others that PMing is not allowed without permission.

And btw the PrntScrn button... yeah I wouldnt be able to give you any proof because i tried it after you told me about it and it didnt work.

girl

[Warbaby1943]

Sheep- I was not throwing anything in your face. Nor was I trying say that you weren't doing your job. All i was saying was that it seems the rules are being enforced inconsistently and that is one particular situation in which I can personally adhere to.

You say you know who it is I am talking about, you say others know it is going on... well point blank... He has been kicked from chat at least once because of this, and told politely by others that PMing is not allowed without permission.

And btw the PrntScrn button... yeah I wouldnt be able to give you any proof because i tried it after you told me about it and it didnt work.

girl

Can you highlight it, copy, and then paste it into a word processing program? Also maybe try "Alt PrtScrn."

[Jadetiger]

That is how I see it. Those who do not bend and "fall in line" are soon gone.

From the chat rules page.


Respect can have many levels...
I think respect is a very objective thing on the boards.
Also Respect is not always a certainty but is something that has to be earned.
There is only a very modest level of respect that is given freely to anyone. Civil respect. This is a level of respect that every one gets. Even people you meet on the street or at a store. And it works both ways, that is something often forgotten .
But it would seem that most ( those who have higher levels/positions) want the kind of Respect that is given to Royalty or Honored as those who have done something extraordinary are ... That just isn't going to happen in an online deal. IF it does happen it has to be earned. Not demanded.
Respect of a higher level is one which must be earned to be maintained and that is the problem here. It isn't earned and maintained daily.
Respect is given when it is deemed able and desireable, not because someone says you will respect me in a manner which pushes them above others ...
Another thing.. Respect is not given to things. they do not do anything to earn respect. No thing, whether that be a book or an idea or a situation is worthy of respect IMO. It is silly to demand such.
Think of it like this :
" You will respect my plate of sphagetti. "
see how odd that sounds ?

I also find it very odd that many see something wrong and others don't see anything at all.
makes me wonder ....

Ok i will end my long post on this and hope someone finds it valuable.

Glad I am not the only one who knows the difference between common courtesy and respect. No one has a right to demand respect but everyone has the right to be treated with common courstey. If someone wants me to fall in line then they had better live up to their own standards. I am not one for following someone I don’t respect.

[Psynymph]

Unfortunatly others then jumped on the bandwagon, some for reasons of their own, some with an axe to grind, and some because they wanted to believe their friend.

The whole situation IMHO is sad as there have been members that have left of their own accord over this.

~sorry cariad~

i take offense to the "bandwagon" remark because, to me, it implies that the people that posted in this thread are merely following a general idea, not thinking on their own. and this is of course assuming you were speaking mainly of this particular thread, considering you are posting in it.

i had absolutely no intentions of spreading my opinion or convincing those of it. many people have asked what exactly this thread was about, or what was going on, and not a single time have i attempted to explain to them.

i started this thread solely to voice my opinion of a problem i perceived. i'm not particularly friendly with any of those that have been banned, not anymore friendly than i am/was with you, Tasker, AC and delia. i am not taking sides, except my own side.

And obviously, there is a real problem, for SO many people to feel basically the same as i do. i was just the first to actually publicly say something, well besides Red.

And as DTT pointed out, apparently there is SOME sort of problem that needs to be addressed seeing as so many people have said they will no longer be apart of the chat room.

So maybe instead of everyone getting offended, maybe they should simply take an unbiased step back and look at it from a different, impersonal point of view.

Maybe instead of getting angry at those of us that chose to maturely voice our opinions that aren't the same of yours, you should actually listen.

There is no easy solution to this problem. It's a pretty big, but also delicate problem. It involves individuals and i understand completely that in this situation it's very hard for sides not to get offended. i realize that people felt as if they were under attack.

But no one, from either "side", has been told not to voice their own concerns, suggestions, or opinions. Because that is exactly what this thread was made for.

And Tasker for the record, only maybe half of this was actually directed at you. The rest was at the rest of the individuals on the "other side".

[Guest 91108]

Can you highlight it, copy, and then paste it into a word processing program? Also maybe try "Alt PrtScrn."

You can't copy and paste in the chat windows. only in the input part of the window.
makes it very difficult to save anything needed.

[Widget]

OK this thread is rapidly deteriorating into a he said she said thing. I will lock this if it continues. Please keep the discussion civil and constructive or it needs to be closed to give people a time out.

[kewlie]

I chose to leave the chat room a few months ago. As far as I can tell it was prior to some of the problems alot of these posts are referring to.

I mainly left due to people not being treated fairly. I also found that some people could give their opinion and it was fine. However, if other people gave their opinion they were criticized or made fun of by certain people. I also got tired of the last minute made up rules, it seemed like they changed quite often.

All of the people that are speaking out and saying how they truly feel - I APPLAUD THEM!!!!

I also feel that there are alot of people that are, or have been, unhappy due to things that have apparently happened in the chat room. Many of them haven't spoken up until now. I am sure there are some that still won't speak up.

However, I don't see that 1 or 2 banned people can be causing this much of an uproar. I think there are major problems.

We use to have a blast in that room. I met so many fantastic people.

As some have said in earlier posts - It is really sad!!!

[Warbaby1943]

OK this thread is rapidly deteriorating into a he said she said thing. I will lock this if it continues. Please keep the discussion civil and constructive or it needs to be closed to give people a time out.

That sure as hell is one way to kill a thread with very interesting comments. Another way would be to actually look for flaming and go from there. Why punish the masses for the sins of a few? I have always hated when that happens.

Some people need to vent and a little latitude, as long as no flaming occurs, should be tolerated.

[cariad]

When I first saw this thread I anguished over what the correct action was. And I will be honest, if Rabbit had been around I would very happily have thrown the whole thing at him. I know that he has always had a guideline that chat is a different part of the site, and discussion about chat should happen in chat, as much as discussion about the academy happens in the academy. However it is clear from what has been said that this thread is the result of a number of members of this community feeling that they are unable to that.

Most of us live in countries where freedom of speech, and the freedom to think differently to those in power, and the freedom to say so is a treasured right. People are rightly also protected by law against defamation of character.

Unfortunately there is a very fine line between venting and flaming (defamation). What is written as a vent, may be read as a vent by people who 'support' the case being put, and as a flame but people who think otherwise. This is part of the staff team's very difficult juggling act, at all times, not just in this thread.

I believe that is what was behind Widget's post. Whilst the discussion is constructive, with controlled emotions, people able to express ideas which they have not previously felt able to, then it is healthy and will stay open. If it gets into a he said, she said match, where emotions are rising, then it may be closed for a short while, just to let things simmer down again.

cariad

[_ID_]

Please can this thread be kept to a discussion of the more general issues rather than slipping into the rights and wrongs of a particular situation.

Sheepish, thank you for the point about taking screenshots and saving them, and of course if the PM appears in the main chat screen it can be saved as part of the room log. As a side point, screenshots can also be pasted into things like word documents and saved there (just because not everyone is familiar using photo editing software).

However, I fear that I have to say in the current atmosphere which includes accusations of modification of room logs, screen shots, or series of screen shots are the best 'evidence'.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr - has a part of this site which I once saw as a second home, and which helped me through a very difficult time, really slipped, for whatever reason, to a state where I have to say that.

Very, very sad.

cariad

I highlighted the part of this post that I thought expressed what others are thinking. For the Site Admin to utter it. I think tells quite a lot about the underlying problem.

One problem I have with everything thats been said. AC himself has not spoken, only delia. Sure she spoke for him, but I believe that leaves it open for the he said she said problem. As well as leaves open the question, if she speaks for him here, does she do so in the chat? If they are live in, the IP address that would be logged during the chat would be the same. Therefore any logs to 'prove' anything would actually prove nothing.

I don't have an ax to grind, and I don't have a problem letting people know what I think of them. I am not taking sides, and I am not playing little games. To say such things sounds very adolescent to me, but then again, that is just an opinion I have. Perhaps other people feel statements like that are dignified and responsible.

I don't come into the chat very much, as I don't have very much time to do so. I don't do it on other sites either, so I don't feel I am jumping on any bandwagons. The one time I had a problem with a chatter, I did do the screen shots, but only after a mod instructed me to do so. I didn't see it in the rules, so I didn't know what the protocol was.

Another problem with being able to express problems your having, with the chat. If we were to express how we felt in the chat room, like we are here. We would be banned, as that would be 'disrespecting' the chat.

It is difficult to know what 'feelings' are being expressed, since all of this is nothing but text, or emoticons.

[Warbaby1943]

When I first saw this thread I anguished over what the correct action was. And I will be honest, if Rabbit had been around I would very happily have thrown the whole thing at him. I know that he has always had a guideline that chat is a different part of the site, and discussion about chat should happen in chat, as much as discussion about the academy happens in the academy. However it is clear from what has been said that this thread is the result of a number of members of this community feeling that they are unable to that.

Most of us live in countries where freedom of speech, and the freedom to think differently to those in power, and the freedom to say so is a treasured right. People are rightly also protected by law against defamation of character.

Unfortunately there is a very fine line between venting and flaming (defamation). What is written as a vent, may be read as a vent by people who 'support' the case being put, and as a flame but people who think otherwise. This is part of the staff team's very difficult juggling act, at all times, not just in this thread.

I believe that is what was behind Widget's post. Whilst the discussion is constructive, with controlled emotions, people able to express ideas which they have not previously felt able to, then it is healthy and will stay open. If it gets into a he said, she said match, where emotions are rising, then it may be closed for a short while, just to let things simmer down again.

cariad

I do understand your dilemma and can sympathize with you. However, I still feel it best to deal individually with violations and leave the thread itself alone. If you want to kill a thread just temporarily close it. My father always said there was no more permanent a tax than a temporary one. I believe the same principal applies here.

If I may suggest an idea I got from the other forum we all know about, they have come up with a separate area which allows more freedom of speech and emotions as long as it is not an outright flame. Maybe we need something very similar here.

If "he said," "she said" statements are mentioned in the right context without calling the author any derogatory names, in my opinion, I don't see that as flaming. Still I wouldn't want to be in your shoes having to make those decisions.

I just really hate to see any thread of substance closed even if the intention is temporary. How may threads have survived a temporary closing? If you want to give it time to settle down couldn't the same result be accomplished by dealing with the guilty parties individually thus leaving the thread itself to thrive or die of its own accord?

Just for the record I have no idea what goes on in chat nor do I really care but I find this one of the most interesting thread going right now.

[annie]

This was originally a post in response to ID's comment about AC responding...

That has been edited several several times... not because it was against what ID had stated. Not because it was against AC...

Why? because no matter what is said at this point... no matter who says it... be it AC, Rabbit, Tiger, or sally sue smith who has never been here before... it appears as though minds are made up and nothing can change that. That is everyone's right as it should be...

Life is never 100% fair from anyone's perspective... unfortunately... that is life.

[caged]

It's disturbing to read suggestions of physical threats. I find it immensely difficult to believe that any of the 'well-known/popular' recently banned chatters did anything like that (though I'm not omniscient of course). Creating such an impression, even inadvertantly, would be very unfortunate if it's not the case.

[cariad]

Warbaby, thank you for your comments - and honestly I do carefully consider things such as the points which you make.

If an individual errs in a post then a member of staff does deal with that as a separate matter - threads are closed, either temporarily or otherwise, when the whole thread starts going off kilter.

But your words are not falling on stony ground, and if this thread is closed for any reason, for any length of time they will have been considered.

cariad