Harry Potter Book Discussion *SPOILER ALERT*

[MajesticFae]

Since the book has been released everywhere now, I'd like to know what everyone thought about it. I think we can have a lovely book dicussion about it and the culmination of the series. I'll let others post before before I throw in my two cents. I'm done with it, just finished it not too long ago... so... Discussion Time!


SPOILER ALERT: If you haven't read it and don't want to know what happens, DO NOT READ THIS THREAD!

[MajesticFae]

Okay. Just kidding. I'll start.

I thought it was fantastic. I really think it's my favorite book yet. There was a surprise around every corner and it kept me intrigued the entire time. Order of the Phoenix didn't quite do that for me when I read it, but this book, Wow.

I won't add any spoilers to this since it's the second post and people might accidentally see it. But I love this book and will post my thoughts about everything in detail with spoilers a bit later. ^_^ I hope people seriously heed my giant spoiler warning...

[MrEmann]

So who dies then?

[nightsilver]

Why not make all spoilers font color the same color as the background for posts so anyone who wants to read them has to highlight the text with the mouse? Thus you can converse worry free.

[MajesticFae]

Why not make all spoilers font color the same color as the background for posts so anyone who wants to read them has to highlight the text with the mouse? Thus you can converse worry free.

Because I meant for this thread to be a book dicussion thread for those of us who've finished it. It's to dicuss the entire Potter series really.

There's a huge spoiler warning at the top for those who aren't done/haven't read it and all that jazz and if they click on this thread it will take them to that post, unless they've peeked in here before then it will take them to the first unread post. There are even posts below that one to shield them from the spoilers if they accidentally click in here. There's really no need to make the text "invisible" that'll just make it tedious for those that reread threads to reread this one in the long run. Besides if someone really doesn't want to know what happens before they're done, they won't access this thread in the first place.

[tessa]

Maybe add the words "spoiler alert" to the thread title?

[MajesticFae]

Maybe add the words "spoiler alert" to the thread title?

I can't change the title, Tessa, love... only you silly Moderators can! If you want to change the title change it to "Harry Potter Book Discussion (Spoilers)" Or something along those lines. =)

Aaaand off to work now, will post my thoughts on the book finally when I get home... ^_^

[nightsilver]

I was apparently sleepy last night when I posted this and thought it was the same as the other potter thread where the spoilers where a no-no. ^_^

[nk_lion]

I didn't expect so many people to die. And Hedwig and Dobby were a shocker.

[MajesticFae]

Oh I know! NK. Lots of people died that I didn't expect.

Freaking Nymphadora should've stayed home with her baby instead of going to Hogwarts to find Lupin, and they both end up dead.

I was so mad at Ronald for Disapparating in the Forrest... but atleast he came back.

That scene where Nagini came out of Bathilda Bagshot was freaking creepy as all hell.

And Xenophillius Lovegood... what a freaking traitor and totally not worthy of his super awesome daugther.

[margaret]

The beginning was definitely shocking in its brutality - I expected that, but I expected it at the end, and only at the end.

I was somewhat disappointed at how well fans seemed to have predicted the book - with the other six there were twists that nobody saw coming, and I didn't get that from this one. I liked how Hogwarts defended itself - that will be a good scene in the movie.

[Clevernick]

I was actually surprised that nobody more major than Fred or Remus died.

Hedwig was foreshadowing, as was George's ear. Rowling's big on foreshadowing.

I thought the predictions that came true -- the "seventh horcrux is Harry", and the "Snape loves Lily" and "Dumbledore made Snape kill him" theory, for example, were all inevitably hinted at strongly in book six. I can't be disappointed in them being true.

I thought she made up for the predictability of those things by introducing other twists -- Dumbledore's family history and its consequences, the Hallows themselves, and the whole wand thing. And this was the right way to keep the surprises going!

Just doing the unexpected to confound those who've picked up your hints is a chump's game. Add more hints and make people think all the way through!

And she did.

On another topic though -- while the plot of the book was nonstop and wonderful, the epilogue left me screaming with disappointment.

Not only was it boring and trivial, and unworthy of even the Book One scene it echoes, it was also completely uninformative. You could sum it up as:

"Everyone else grew up and got married and had kids, who went to Hogwarts."

What about the answers to questions we've been wondering about throughout the book, like:

* What do Hermione and Harry and Ron and Ginny each do for a living afterwards?
* How is the Ministry of Magic reorganized so this crap won't happen again? I can't believe Harry won't be actively involved in that. Who's the new Minister for Magic? (Kingsley got it temporarily)
* What happens to the Dursleys?
* What happens to Hermione's House-Elf campaign?
* Does Quiddich come back? Do Harry or Draco get into it professionally? Why not?
* Where do all the surviving former Death-Eaters go? Do they get witch-hunted? Thrown in Azkhaban? Ignored, as the Malfoys are at the end? Put back to work in the Ministry, where people are as evil and callous as bureaucrats can get already?
* Does the Daily Prophet finally get an editor with a conscience? Does someone finally get rid of Rita Skeeter?

I looked forward to the Epilogue for these questions, and they were NOT answered. Instead the epilogue raised another question or two, like:

* Neville's apparently still single 19 years after his triumph and brave show? Why? Do those plants in Herbology make him smell funny? Or did he cut off more than one snake with that sword?
* Is there anything more interesting in life besides getting married and having babies named after people you loved?
* Now that Harry has been crucified, sacrificed, killed, spoken to the guy with the long white beard and learned all the answers, come back from the dead and spoken to his followers, where are his devoted worshippers? Will a cult of Potter-worship arise to replace the sycophantic Death-Eaters?


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Want answers!

[MajesticFae]

I had a lot of questions of my own Nick. I was DYING to know who Draco was married to in the Epilogue... I was glad she atleast confirmed that Ron and Hermione married and that Ginny and Harry did as well. I was disappointed in Harry and Ginny's kids names... Lily, James and Albus Severus... waaay too sentimental for my tastes.

I never really read all of the "Fan's Predictions" so I was surprised by a lot of stuff.

[Clevernick]

She didn't say who Draco married, though the son's name was a hoot.

I'm guessing Pansy Parkinson though.

How could Harry and Ginny NOT be sentimental about kids? That's Harry's whole character throughout the book...

MF, did you get that Tonks and Lupin's son Teddy was snogging with "Victoire" who had to be Fleur and Bill's? A fascinating quarter-werewolf one-sixteenth Veela brood would ensue...

[nk_lion]

Yeah, the childrens' names were too sentimental, to the point of almost being sappy.

The epilogue was OK, nothing more. From the way she worded it, that she would tie up all ends to make sure no one wrote another book after her about Harry Potter (Like Gone with the Wind), I assumed that everything would be answered, as opposed for all the readers to guess what would happen. Although a couple of days before the book was released, the never say never comment was said regarding future books.

As for predictions, Snape and Lily, Snape killing Dumbledore, it was kinda predictable. The whole not so Jesus like innocent Dumbledore was a huge shocker....my heart was beating hard at that one point, and the Harry a Horcrux was pretty surprising as I remember hearing her say that he wasn't one.

And why did she have to kill Hedwig? Dobby I can understand, but Hedwig??

And the Tiara and locket seemed like good candidates for Horcruxes to me before I read the book.

[tessa]

Ok, I thought I only cared about Harry, Ron, Hermione or Hagrid dying.

Dobby dies?????

~sobs~

Oh well, at least now I know. I can be prepared when I read the book.

~sniffles~ Poor Dobby.

[Clevernick]

Tessa, I'm just shocked that you're reading this thread and you haven't read the book! Apologies for giving so much away!

I had more questions following onto my last ones --

The only major jobs in the wizarding world appear to be:

1) Ministry of Magic civil servant
2) Hogwarts teacher or staff
3) Shopkeeper or tavern proprietor, or manufacturer of magic goods
4) Working with Dragons in Eastern Europe
5) Pro Quiddich player or organizer

Given this dearth of choices, and that Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny don't seem to work at Hogwarts, that says that none of the four become Hogwarts headmaster. I wonder who succeeds McGonagall?

And if they're not working at Hogwarts, does this mean that Harry and Ron are either helping George out with the joke shop, or putting in time at the Ministry? Does Harry become Minister of Magic? He seems a natural for it, so why not mention it?

What does the brilliant Hermione do with her talent? Surely raising kids with loveable lummox Ron doesn't occupy much of her planet-sized brain.

What about the brave Ginny?


One final comment, and it's snarky. I really love the books, but still -- Ron and Hermione's continued difficulty expressing their feelings for each other, and Harry's pathetic continual whinging about whether Dumbledore had really loved him and trusted him, are possible only in chick literature.

They were fun as plot devices when the kids were 14-15, but are really just irritating at 17. Only in chick-lit would they survive.

Harry Potter's series is thus, despite its brilliance, still a chick-lit classic. I found myself wishing that Rowling had outsourced some of the last book to a man, say, George Lucas.

This would have made no real change to the "I just love Hermione like a sister" moment, or the "Harry, I, Snape, am not your father, but I wish I had been" moment, or even the rebels' breaking into the Ministry of Death Star scene. But it would have removed a lot of the womanly whining from characters who should have balls.

I don't recall Luke ever wondering if Obi-Wan (or Vader) had really loved him. Men know better than to write that stuff.

I'm just sayin'

Grins,
C

[MajesticFae]

From the way she worded it, that she would tie up all ends to make sure no one wrote another book after her about Harry Potter (Like Gone with the Wind),

And why did she have to kill Hedwig? Dobby I can understand, but Hedwig??
.

Not sure if you knew it, NK, but GWTW got a sequel... it's called "Scarlett."

Hedwig would've been unnesscessary in this book. It would've been kind of obvious where Harry was if someone saw Hedwig that recognised her.

Tessa! Stop reading this thread and go read the book! ^_^

She didn't say who Draco married, though the son's name was a hoot.

I'm guessing Pansy Parkinson though.

I think I'd die laughing if he married Millicent Bullstrode... but it was probably Pansy or some other "dark" witch.

MF, did you get that Tonks and Lupin's son Teddy was snogging with "Victoire" who had to be Fleur and Bill's? A fascinating quarter-werewolf one-sixteenth Veela brood would ensue...

I totally caught that! I thought it was simply amazing. Victoire Weasley is a pretty funny sounding name.

I'll bet Luna married Neville. They always seemed like they'd make a good couple. I really wish she'd just tell us what happened to all of the characters, what they're jobs were, who they married and all that. Just like this big book of "What Happened After Book 7" done by Character and such for all of the "major" characters like Harry down through Seamus and Dean. Maybe even the Parvati's and Lavender Brown... I'm so curious about all of those kids!

That should so say Even the "Patils" and Lavendar Brown.... Wow, I'm smart. It's Padma and Parvati Patil... not Padma and Patil Parvati!

[Clevernick]

I'll bet Luna married Neville. They always seemed like they'd make a good couple. I really wish she'd just tell us what happened to all of the characters, what they're jobs were, who they married and all that. Just like this big book of "What Happened After Book 7" done by Character and such for all of the "major" characters like Harry down through Seamus and Dean. Maybe even the Parvati's and Lavender Brown... I'm so curious about all of those kids!

I have decided to write it. There's no stopping me now. I have no idea if anyone will ever read my version, but there will be legions of fans out there demanding a real epilogue and I intend to provide one.

It will also deal with what happens to the Death Eaters, the Dementors, the Giants, and the Aurors. And how things are improved to avoid the next Voldemort.

[MajesticFae]

I'll so read it, Nick. I'm a Harry Potter Fanfiction addictee. I've read that fanfiction for years now. I definately want to read that Epilogue... Oh yes.

[^firefly^]

Oh good...book discussion!!!

Luna and Neville do NOT get together...someone on Mugglenet suggested that and Rowling herself shot that theory down, even before "Deathly Hallows" came out.

As for the epilogue...I liked it. I like not knowing everything. Does it really matter who was Head Boy and Girl the last year? Or what jobs they all hold? Not really. The epilogue would have been boring (and long) if she'd tried to cram all the little tidbits that everyone seems to want in there. I think she answered just enough questions, and left room for herself to write more Wizarding books (though not about Harry, she's already said she won't do another Harry book).

And I doubt Draco married Pansy Parkinson. I strongly think Rowling wanted us to see a change in the Malfoys by the end of the book. And besides, if it had been Pansy, why wouldn't she have just said so? So I suspect it was someone unknown to readers.

I loved the book, as a whole, though it's not my favorite. I was sad about the deaths of some of my favorite characters (Dobby and Lupin) and felt that some of the deaths were glossed over (I know the book was written for children, but still...) I was generally happy with everything, though I think the seach for the Horcruxes took waaaaay too long and the battle at the end was a little short.

I think, in general, that Harry was a little less of a whiny brat in this book that he was in the last one, though his indecisiveness still bothers me. I miss the self-confident Harry from the earlier books in the series. As far as this being chick-lit....I think that's unfair. I remember high school. There were a lot of on-again/off-again couples. They are only 17, for pity's sake! Despite some of the adult things the characters in the series had to deal with, they were still, at heart, children, especially Harry, who grew up without the loving reassurance of his parents. I find his lack of trust in Dumbledore's love and caring entirely appropriate, even if I did wish there were times that he'd buck up and move along.

Anyway, that's my 3 cents, because I've rambled so much...shutting up now...

[nk_lion]

Not sure if you knew it, NK, but GWTW got a sequel... it's called "Scarlett."

Mis-worded what I said....meant to say that Jo didn't want what happened with GWTW to Harry Potter.

[Ozme52]

Someone said Harry was the 7th Horcrux (sp) but I counted six. The seventh bit of soul being within Voldemort himself... and not specifically a Horcrux. Maybe just a matter of semantics... but I may have missed one and the book is too long to reread so soon.

So someone recap it for me. What were the seven Horcruxi? And while we're at it... who destroyed each one... Then we can argue.

[Ozme52]

I think Rowling did a good job at working the audience in advance. By making us believe "a major character" would die... didn't it really make you worry as you read each encounter that put Ron or Hermione at risk? I'll be you were all as invested and worried during each encounter as I was.

And... in fact she did tell the truth... After all, Snape is a major character. So is Voldemort. And bottom line... Harry was killed... though being the 'master' of the 3 deathly hallow artifacts in fact did let him choose to return to life.

[Clevernick]

Oz:

The list of the seven horcruxae and their eventual fate is neatly laid out at

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Ho...t_of_Horcruxes

firefly:

I agree that Pansy is probably not a good choice for Draco and you've convinced me that if Draco had married her, we would have been told.

It's also pretty obvious that Neville's not with Luna, or the epilogue would have mentioned it.

I disagree that Ron and Hermione are a typical on-off 17-year-old couple. They haven't even kissed yet (until quite late in the book) and they have long since admitted to themselves that they're interested, but not yet admitted it aloud to each other. Both have had other relationships and caught the other being jealous. Each is aware of the other's interest and their own. They're hanging out sleeping rough in the woods together for weeks on a life threatening adventure. And no kiss. How long can mind games like this go on without a single kiss? Answer: maybe a month in reality. But more than two years in this series.

Verdict: Chick-lit.

I am equally disappointed with Harry's failure to grow up at 17. He learned in book 4 that his dad had really loved him. He learned in book 5 that he was going to be a hero and that he had what it takes. He learned in book 6 that Dumbledore loved and respected him enough to take a whole year off all other extracurricular activities just to teach him everything possible, and be mentor and tutor to him.

Further agonizing and paralysis about whether Dumbledore really loved and trusted him is just maddening, on the level of Hamlet. The confident, selfless Harry was over his teen angst and could and should have come back by then.

Verdict: Chick-lit.

I think Shakespeare defined Chick-lit best:

And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.

All that said, it's a great plot and follows the hints perfectly, while adding an incredible number of plot twists and extra points. Love that.

I disagree that the jobs these people take on after graduating is trivia. My wife and I have argued about it endlessly since book 4. Since the whole OWLS and Aurors thing, it's been a major question. It should be resolved. Hermione must use her talent in some important way. Harry needs a fitting position in the Wizarding world besides "Dad". And Ron needs to show all of us "C" students that there's something useful he can do too.

Not to mention all the questions raised by the multiplication of the Dementors, them being out of control, the Death Eaters still at large, and the Ministry basically out of control too. This stuff needs a firm hand to set it straight, and most of the really good firm hands are dead. Our new generation has a part to play and should be involved. Remember all of Harry's confrontations with Fudge and Scrimgeour?

I'm still going to have to help JKR out and write a real epilogue for her excellent book.

[GaelstormIRA]

I was actually surprised that nobody more major than Fred or Remus died.

Hedwig was foreshadowing, as was George's ear. Rowling's big on foreshadowing.

I thought the predictions that came true -- the "seventh horcrux is Harry", and the "Snape loves Lily" and "Dumbledore made Snape kill him" theory, for example, were all inevitably hinted at strongly in book six. I can't be disappointed in them being true.

I thought she made up for the predictability of those things by introducing other twists -- Dumbledore's family history and its consequences, the Hallows themselves, and the whole wand thing. And this was the right way to keep the surprises going!

Just doing the unexpected to confound those who've picked up your hints is a chump's game. Add more hints and make people think all the way through!

And she did.

On another topic though -- while the plot of the book was nonstop and wonderful, the epilogue left me screaming with disappointment.

Not only was it boring and trivial, and unworthy of even the Book One scene it echoes, it was also completely uninformative. You could sum it up as:

"Everyone else grew up and got married and had kids, who went to Hogwarts."

What about the answers to questions we've been wondering about throughout the book, like:

* What do Hermione and Harry and Ron and Ginny each do for a living afterwards?
* How is the Ministry of Magic reorganized so this crap won't happen again? I can't believe Harry won't be actively involved in that. Who's the new Minister for Magic? (Kingsley got it temporarily)
* What happens to the Dursleys?
* What happens to Hermione's House-Elf campaign?
* Does Quiddich come back? Do Harry or Draco get into it professionally? Why not?
* Where do all the surviving former Death-Eaters go? Do they get witch-hunted? Thrown in Azkhaban? Ignored, as the Malfoys are at the end? Put back to work in the Ministry, where people are as evil and callous as bureaucrats can get already?
* Does the Daily Prophet finally get an editor with a conscience? Does someone finally get rid of Rita Skeeter?

I looked forward to the Epilogue for these questions, and they were NOT answered. Instead the epilogue raised another question or two, like:

* Neville's apparently still single 19 years after his triumph and brave show? Why? Do those plants in Herbology make him smell funny? Or did he cut off more than one snake with that sword?
* Is there anything more interesting in life besides getting married and having babies named after people you loved?
* Now that Harry has been crucified, sacrificed, killed, spoken to the guy with the long white beard and learned all the answers, come back from the dead and spoken to his followers, where are his devoted worshippers? Will a cult of Potter-worship arise to replace the sycophantic Death-Eaters?


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Want answers!

All I can say is that I am pretty much in full agreement with you. Although I think she just couldn't think of anything else to write when it came to those who boring camping and house parts. Actually I think this book could have been dropped to about 400pgs and had the exact same effect. The epilogue was such a cop out that I could hardly believe my eyes, I actually wish I could demand a refund of my money, she simply and plainly did nothing with the epilogue, besides tells everyone has kids and harry named his son Albus Severus Potter. All in all it was an ok book, with an extremely bad ending.

[TomOfSweden]

Oh, cool. A new Harry Potter book. I'll go out and buy it at once. So far they've all been great.

[GaelstormIRA]

After some time to think about the book and talking to the SO, I actually have came around to liking the book more than I did. But I will say I still think the first three were the best. There was still that since of mystery and magic then.

[Laila]

I have to say this is probably my favourite, too. (Must be because the Harry Potter series are the only books that can reawake that all consuming passion for reading that makes you read for hours and hours straight! And this was that in its best form, I basically read 12 hours straight slept a bit and then read the last 50 pages.)

On the one downside (and also I thought this about The Order of the Phoenix, with all these decrees of Umbridge's) I think its so political in a way that a german feels its almost taken fact for fact from Nazi-Germany, encoded and written down.
Muggle-borns having to register, being interrogated, fleeing the country - people listening to a radio station that reports the truth as germans illegally listened to the BBC...
I suppose it might be a little bit like any tyranny, but germans are sesitive . And i'm not necessarily saying its bad to do it like that, I just find it distracting sometimes.

Same with relying on other sources - the locket-horecrux? With burning itself into the chest and making the bearer moody and bad-tempered and actually make him think his worst suspicions are reality - how is that not just like Lord of the Rings? (It has to be destroyed, too lol)

But I'm just nit-picky because I utterly loved it! Rowling has that amazing ability to make a book both incredibly exciting and absolutely hilarious at the same time. Sometimes literally at the same time.

Hated the deaths though! Fred? That's like George, too. What will he do without his twin? And Remus, my favourite teacher and object of lust ... and Tonks, leaving their baby without parents... hmpf.
Even Snape... I mean, it would have been nice (sentimental but nice) to see how they would get along after Harry had seen these Memories...
Buts worst: Dobby! How could she kill Dobby? *pouts*

And I didn't mind the ending, in fact I really liked it (mainly because I was so afraid she's kill Harry! I mean atually kill him so that he is actually dead) - and because just the day before I got it I told someone in a discussion that that's exactly what I wanted - Harry marrying Ginny and have lots of cute babies. So I can't complain.
Besides - this ending will inspire scores and leagues of fans to write terrible fanfiction again. So for them it was rather kind of Rowling that she didn't reveal too much. Gets the creative juices flowing

I think the ending had to be sentimental, and even though the question I want to have answered most is also who Draco would have married and what all their jobs were, I like the mystery, too.
Besides it had my favourite line in the whole book: "Mum, I can't give a professor love!"

[MajesticFae]

I agree with you Laila about the whole Nazi Germany thing. I was thinking about it while reading parts.

I think we keep forgetting that Mad Eye died as well as Hedwig. I loved Mad Eye's Character. (Constant Vigiliance).

Supposedly JK is going to write a Harry Potter "Encyclopedia" revealing some back history on some characters and giving us more tidbits of what happens in the future.

Additionally, Jo announced that she "probably will" create a Harry Potter encyclopedia! From NBC's website:

The encyclopedia would include back stories of characters she has already written but had to cut for the sake of narrative arc (“I've said before that Dean Thomas had a much more interesting history than ever appeared in the books”), as well as details about the characters who survive “Deathly Hallows,” characters who continue to live on in Rowling’s mind in a clearly defined magical world.

Also, according to Mugglenet, JK could bear to kill off Mr. Weasley. I'm glad she didn't, I would've been very sad for the Weasleys. But Still, I can't help but wonder what George is going to do without Fred. I suppose run Weasley's Wizard Wheeze's by himself.