Out of body religious experiences

[TomOfSweden]

What is true? How do we know it's true? Because it's been proven in a scientific manner? Anything can be "proven" scientifically given the right (wrong?) conditions. Because we see it with our own two eyes? Seeing is most definitively not believing. Ask the eye-witnesses to a crime what the bad guy was wearing and you'll get as many different answers as there are colors in the rainbow. Because our faith allows us to believe in it? Well, that's not one you particularly care to ponder, so I move on. Because it's what we perceive as true? Self-peception of what's true is as close as we mortals will get to it, in my opinion.

Or perhaps what's "true" is spoken as such because someone with too many letters after their name calls it a "proven theory"- what an oxymoron. Again, in my opinion.

Speaking of those type morons (will she, won't she?...will she, won't she?), here's another one for you from Tennyson's Idylls of the King:

"And faith unfaithful kept him falsely true."

It's a thought.

So I finally had a quite moment to sit and ponder this thread. I'm sorry my answers have been a bit rushed here. I really shouldn't have even tried coming here earlier this week, but the library is such a addictive place.

Ok, truth. All methods of finding the truth aren't equally as good. When people say that science can't find all the answers and that just because nobody can fit god into a beaker doesn't invalidate it.

A major problem in science is that you often don't know what you're looking for until you've allready found it. People seldom find what they hoped they would. And often they think they find it and then 150 years later somebody turns the model the right way up. As they did with the now extinct creature Hallicinogensis.

Isn't the plain and painful truth is that we have no better method than science? We can't trust our senses or common sense. We can't trust our feelings either.

A problem that religious research faces is off-course that it's impossible for anybody to verify. So the Bible says that god and the angels communicates with to people. What is that based on? How do we know that the people who had these visions weren't just plain crazy or hallucinated? What I don't understand is under these circumstances anybody can take the leap of faith? I can understand if somebody wonders about freaky shit they've seen and can't explain. But that's all it is. Things that can't be explained. To extrapolate from this the extremely complex system of belief that Christianity is, is extremely far fetched.

I understand that we like seeing meaning in things happening. We all have the compulsion to create narratives for everything happening around us. So we like to be able to explain things. But that doesn't mean we really can.

If I hear my now dead grandmothers voice calling out to me in my head and telling me stuff I can from that draw very little conclusions This has actually happened to me.

It may indicate that somehow her spirit survived and is floating around and is trying to tell me things. Maybe. It may also be that she's become an angel and is communicating with me from heaven. Maybe. It may also be that she was reincarnated as a fly on the wall and because of our close connection she can somehow communicate with me. Maybe. She may have entered a dimensional rift and can speak to me through a rip in the space time continuum. Maybe. It may not be a supernatural occurrence at all. Maybe.

There really is no point for me to try to come up with my own scientific theory for how this happend since I'm not half as good at neuro science or psychology to come up with an explanation. I haven't asked any religious authority figure about it, but I doubt they could say anything convincing. How did they come to their insights? How do they know that what they're saying is the truth? My point is that I don't see any fault in admitting that I don't know. And I'm also totally open to the fact that it could be a third possibility, and whole paradigm of thought that hasn't sprung into existence yet.

The major problem with all the religions is that there's really no reason to believe any of their theories. And if there's no reason to adapt a theory then why do it? If it's only guesswork then why? Why have faith in something when it is blind faith?

[tessa]

How do they know that what they're saying is the truth?

They don't. It's called faith. And you have it just like I do, Tom. It's why you got married. Faith, hope and love...

My point is that I don't see any fault in admitting that I don't know. And I'm also totally open to the fact that it could be a third possibility, and whole paradigm of thought that hasn't sprung into existence yet.

And this is why I read what you have to say and learn something from it. And it's why I respect you a pretty good little bit, Mr. Tom.

Christianity has so many flaws, I won't touch that part.

Add the word "organized" in front of that (as Wolfscout did), and I'm in complete agreement. But one's own personal spirituality, yeah, that's where one needs to look for truth. Way to say that, Wolfie.

Isn't interesting that the greats of science and religion should think so alike?

Alex Bragi is brilliant!...she said for the umpteenth time. I should just make a sign...walk around with it and flash it as necessary.

Fabulous discussion/debate, people. Thanks for the learning!

tessa

ps. Still laughing over Sir G's "string theory".

[TomOfSweden]

They don't. It's called faith. And you have it just like I do, Tom. It's why you got married. Faith, hope and love...

Isn't that just sweeping the problem under the carpet. How can it make any sense to build a case for and against something. Weigh them together. Not being able to reach a conclusion, (who can?) and then pick one based on faith? That's not faith, that's willful self delusion.

[tessa]

Isn't that just sweeping the problem under the carpet. How can it make any sense to build a case for and against something. Weigh them together. Not being able to reach a conclusion, (who can?) and then pick one based on faith? That's not faith, that's willful self delusion.

Po-TA-to = Po-TAH-to.

Has everything really been said and discussed here?

Nope. I don't think so. Could it ever?