Do you believe in miracles?

[Thorne]

I shall wait for science to tell me why refraction happens (not just what happens when light is refracted). I shall also wait for science to discover what the uncaused cause was and why it is/was the uncaused cause. Finally, I shall wait for science to tell me why I think a rainbow is beautiful while Thorne (possibly) does not.

I shall not hold my breath.

TYWD.

Refraction happens because light travels at different speeds through different media. If you want to know why THAT is then I suggest you take a course in optics.
As for the uncaused cause, I have no idea what you're talking about.
And I never said I don't think a rainbow is beautiful. On the contrary, I think they are quite amazing. As for why you think they are beautiful, it's probably because you were taught that they are. Beauty is a subjective matter, primarily. And it changes all the time. What we find beautiful today may be viewed as vulgar 10 or 20 years from now.
True, some beauty lasts for a long time. Music especially is enduring. Yet even that is subjective. Many people find opera to be exquisite, food for the soul. To me it is no better than fingernails scraping across a chalkboard. I enjoy the music! But you can keep the singing.
And the same can hold true for belief systems. Most people tend to believe what they were taught to believe. And they hold to those beliefs because they are comfortable, uncomplicated. Questioning them requires an effort which many people are not willing to put forth. Yes, some turn to other belief systems, some turn away from all of them completely. It is all subjective, different for everyone. And in that diversity there is true beauty.

[Thorne]

Voodoo_Child
A beautiful and thoughtful statement of your beliefs. I applaud you for your sincerity, and my sympathies for your aunt.
Yet within your post lies the central reasons for my lack of faith. I cannot permit myself to believe in a God who would take the life of a young mother and wife while allowing evil people to live, and to live in relative luxury. I cannot tolerate a God who would force millions of people who love and fear him to labor in poverty and filth while hypocritical thieves rob them of what little they can salvage and live lives of privilege and wealth. What God deserving of that love could allow innocent children to be raped, abuse, murdered, while those who perform that abuse go unpunished. And how can any God force all of humanity to pay for the sin of just two people. This is not a God who is worthy of my love. If he truly does exist he is worthy only of contempt.

[Flaming_Redhead]

Voodoo_Child
A beautiful and thoughtful statement of your beliefs. I applaud you for your sincerity, and my sympathies for your aunt.
Yet within your post lies the central reasons for my lack of faith. I cannot permit myself to believe in a God who would take the life of a young mother and wife while allowing evil people to live, and to live in relative luxury. I cannot tolerate a God who would force millions of people who love and fear him to labor in poverty and filth while hypocritical thieves rob them of what little they can salvage and live lives of privilege and wealth. What God deserving of that love could allow innocent children to be raped, abuse, murdered, while those who perform that abuse go unpunished. And how can any God force all of humanity to pay for the sin of just two people. This is not a God who is worthy of my love. If he truly does exist he is worthy only of contempt.

Thank you for the kind words. There seems to be no end to the evil that people are capable of, but it is my belief that the wicked will not go unpunished. I think torment in hell for eternity is worse than any prison sentence we could impose, though I'm not opposed to hurrying wrongdoers on their merry way. *eg* If I chose not to believe in God, then I would also have to believe that there would be no justice in the end. It's a miserable thought. Anyway, your view point reminds me of an old song, which still doesn't explain why bad things happen to good people....

"Farther Along"

Tempted and tried we're oft made to wonder
Why it should be thus all the day long
While there are others living about us
Never molested though in the wrong

[Chorus]
Farther along we'll know all about it
Farther along we'll understand why
Cheer up my brother live in the sunshine
We'll understand it all by and by

When death has come and taken our loved ones
It leaves our home so lonely and drear
And then do we wonder why others prosper
Living so wicked year after year

[Repeat Chorus]

When we see Jesus coming in glory
When he comes down from his home in the sky
Then we shall meet him in that bright mansion
We'll understand it all by and by

[Repeat Chorus]
Yeah we'll understand it all by and by

[Ozme52]

Red (can we still call you Red?)

The problem with this statement...

There seems to be no end to the evil that people are capable of, but it is my belief that the wicked will not go unpunished. I think torment in hell for eternity is worse than any prison sentence we could impose, though I'm not opposed to hurrying wrongdoers on their merry way. *eg* If I chose not to believe in God, then I would also have to believe that there would be no justice in the end. It's a miserable thought. Anyway, your view point reminds me of an old song, which still doesn't explain why bad things happen to good people....

...is "Who defines wicked?"

The "people" who brought you the concept of hell would say you are wicked. Sex outside of marriage, sex for pleasure instead of procreation, worshipping (by their defintion) another before God...

[Flaming_Redhead]

Red (can we still call you Red?)

The problem with this statement...



...is "Who defines wicked?"

The "people" who brought you the concept of hell would say you are wicked. Sex outside of marriage, sex for pleasure instead of procreation, worshipping (by their defintion) another before God...

Of course you can still call me Red! I don't think you'd have a problem finding people who agree that child molesterers, serial killers and other cold-blooded killers, etc., are wicked. The gray area lies in intent. In some cultures, it's customary to chop off the hand of a thief. Is a person who steals food because he's starving the same as a person who steals for a living rather than work an honest job or simply because he's greedy? I don't think so, and I don't think God thinks so either. I wouldn't press charges against a hungry person who runs off with a bag of groceries, but I'd let my investment broker rot in prison for running off with my retirement fund. Yeah, I know I'm hardly a saint. *eg* I believe the term commonly used is "sinner." What's your point? I'm not perfect. I know it. You know it. God knows it.

Btw, I believe the concept of sex strictly for procreation is an invention of the Catholic church, not God. I'm not Catholic, so I don't buy into that nor do I fornicate only in the missionary position, which was supposedly the optimal position for conception. I also use birth control. In addition, I'm divorced, so anyone who fornicates with me is committing adultery. *GASP* I guess this means I'm on the highway to hell.

[Ozme52]

Of course you can still call me Red! I don't think you'd have a problem finding people who agree that child molesterers, serial killers and other cold-blooded killers, etc., are wicked. The gray area lies in intent. In some cultures, it's customary to chop off the hand of a thief. Is a person who steals food because he's starving the same as a person who steals for a living rather than work an honest job or simply because he's greedy? I don't think so, and I don't think God thinks so either. I wouldn't press charges against a hungry person who runs off with a bag of groceries, but I'd let my investment broker rot in prison for running off with my retirement fund. Yeah, I know I'm hardly a saint. *eg* I believe the term commonly used is "sinner." What's your point? I'm not perfect. I know it. You know it. God knows it.

Btw, I believe the concept of sex strictly for procreation is an invention of the Catholic church, not God. I'm not Catholic, so I don't buy into that nor do I fornicate only in the missionary position, which was supposedly the optimal position for conception. I also use birth control. In addition, I'm divorced, so anyone who fornicates with me is committing adultery. *GASP* I guess this means I'm on the highway to hell.

My intent is not to argue the specifics per se. Just the concepts of science v. religion as manifested in the concept of miracles and down all the tangents that takes us... (hmmm did I just contradict myself? )

I'm spiritual but not "religious"... mostly because of the connection to organized religion that implies. But I will stand by my statement. Who gets to decide what is wicked?

All of your examples sends chills up our spines. Of course we all agree child-molesters and serial and other cold-blooded killers are evil and will be or should be punished both here on earth and by god...

But wait!! Please define child-molester. Are all our British friends going to hell? They use a different age than we use in the USA. I'm not actually asking you to define it... Ancient Jews consider 13 to be the age of assent. And in many cultures girls became marriable upon menstruation.

Just pointing out the folly of general statements when arguing 'right and wrong'.

[Thorne]

But wait!! Please define child-molester. Are all our British friends going to hell? They use a different age than we use in the USA. I'm not actually asking you to define it... Ancient Jews consider 13 to be the age of assent. And in many cultures girls became marriable upon menstruation.

A long time ago I posted somewhere about this very idea. ( I think it was here when Rabbit took over and changed some rules about posting stories containing underage characters.) I'm not going to do the research again, but my recollection is that here in the US there was a very large variation between states regarding age for marriage. In at least one state, I believe, a girl of 14 could marry without her parents consent, and in many states she could marry with their consent. In other states women under 21 had to have their parents consent. There was even one country, as I recall, which allowed girls as young as 9 years old to be given away in marriage (I'm not certain, but I think it was Afghanistan under the Taliban.)