Do you believe in miracles?

[ThisYouWillDo]

[QUOTE=Ozme52;523329]Actually science can explain that. Turns out to mostly be about symmetry. Ask a large sampling of men and women to arrange a large sampling of faces from most handsome/beautiful to least and then take measurements of all the faces and the most symmetrical faces are beautiful and the least symmetrical faces are ugly.

Are you saying beauty is about symmetry or that it is symmetry. The experiment seems to suggest the latter, and I reject that. Also, it doesn't account for the fact that I think wifey is ugly and Thorne thinks she's beautiful. And it seems to me that handsome men have more asymmetrical faces while pretty women have symmetrical ones.

So the point is that we are governed by things that science can explain. And you can ask all you want about big bang and atoms... Your attitude is very arrogant in the sense that your argument presumes we know everything there is to know... and anything we don't know must be because of some omnipotent omniscient being.

No, no, no! That's quite wrong (apart from the "arrogant" bit) - I am arguing that science does not know everything. I am trying to counter the suggestion that everything can be explained by science now, or at some time in the future. Currently (I am told), science regards atoms as "unknowable".[/QUOTE]

[Flaming_Redhead]

Red (can we still call you Red?)

The problem with this statement...



...is "Who defines wicked?"

The "people" who brought you the concept of hell would say you are wicked. Sex outside of marriage, sex for pleasure instead of procreation, worshipping (by their defintion) another before God...

Of course you can still call me Red! I don't think you'd have a problem finding people who agree that child molesterers, serial killers and other cold-blooded killers, etc., are wicked. The gray area lies in intent. In some cultures, it's customary to chop off the hand of a thief. Is a person who steals food because he's starving the same as a person who steals for a living rather than work an honest job or simply because he's greedy? I don't think so, and I don't think God thinks so either. I wouldn't press charges against a hungry person who runs off with a bag of groceries, but I'd let my investment broker rot in prison for running off with my retirement fund. Yeah, I know I'm hardly a saint. *eg* I believe the term commonly used is "sinner." What's your point? I'm not perfect. I know it. You know it. God knows it.

Btw, I believe the concept of sex strictly for procreation is an invention of the Catholic church, not God. I'm not Catholic, so I don't buy into that nor do I fornicate only in the missionary position, which was supposedly the optimal position for conception. I also use birth control. In addition, I'm divorced, so anyone who fornicates with me is committing adultery. *GASP* I guess this means I'm on the highway to hell.

[Thorne]

Even you have redeeming qualities!

Just don't tell anyone! It'll destroy my reputation.

I think can agree with you that, while the ability to appreciate beauty might have to be taught, the act of appreciating it is a subjective one. So, while I might think my wife is ugly, and you consider her beautiful, there is a quality of "beauty" out there somewhere that we both subscribe to: an idea of what beauty is. Science cannot explain what that is.

Although I do not even KNOW your wife, this basically has been my point. And it is not science's task to explain what beauty is, or even what may be beautiful. It is science's task to try to remove the superstition and myth which permeates people's views of their world. And I, for one, find a certain amount of beauty in that.

[Ozme52]

Are you saying beauty is about symmetry or that it is symmetry. The experiment seems to suggest the latter, and I reject that. Also, it doesn't account for the fact that I think wifey is ugly and Thorne thinks she's beautiful. And it seems to me that handsome men have more asymmetrical faces while pretty women have symmetrical ones.

Neither, I'm saying that science is able to correlate beauty to some things that are in fact measurable. I'm making the point that some of the things we attribute to the human experience, music and art and the concepts of beauty, can in fact be correllated to factors in the physical world that science can attempt to explain. Countering the specific statement you made that science couldn't explain beauty.

You may call your wife ugly and someone else may say she's beautiful and you would likely both place her in the same relative position on a continuum of faces. The words are qualitative, not quantitative. But regardless of the word, you probably would both rate her relatively similarly in comparison to other faces.

And... familiarity breeds contempt. LOL. And variety is the spice of life... so of course one tires of the same face after a while. Another reason you might use different adjectives.

No, no, no! That's quite wrong (apart from the "arrogant" bit) - I am arguing that science does not know everything. I am trying to counter the suggestion that everything can be explained by science now, or at some time in the future. Currently (I am told), science regards atoms as "unknowable".[/QUOTE]

I will always disagree with the one statement 'or at some time in the future.'
That's religion masquerading as philosophy trying to deny science.

"Science" has regarded stuff we understand very well today as unknowable in the past. That particular statement, that atoms are unknowable, is itself pretty old... before we understood protons and neutrons and electrons, let alone quantum mechanics.

[Thorne]

Are you saying beauty is about symmetry or that it is symmetry. The experiment seems to suggest the latter, and I reject that. Also, it doesn't account for the fact that I think wifey is ugly and Thorne thinks she's beautiful. And it seems to me that handsome men have more asymmetrical faces while pretty women have symmetrical ones.

I think you will find that the majority of people tend to find things which are symmetrical to be more beautiful than things which are not. But this is by no means definitive. That's why I say it is subjective. And yes, men and women, perhaps because of gender differences or differences in upbringing, do tend to have differing concepts of beauty.
As for your wife (and I apologize in advance to the lady), if you were to show me a picture of her, or even if I were to meet her socially somewhere, I might indeed find her attractive, even beautiful. But I am looking solely at her appearance, while you are seeing her with the eyes of familiarity. And it is true that "familiarity breeds contempt." You have had to live with her for some number of years, perhaps you've had to deal with her lackadaisical housecleaning, or dealt with her foul language, or are just plain sick of smelling her farts all night long, as I'm sure she is sick of smelling yours! I'm sure that at one time you must have considered her beautiful, or you wouldn't have married her. You had to "learn" to think of her as ugly. (Again I apologize to her. I don't know her, have never seen her, everything I said is for illustrative purposes only, there's not a grain of truth in it. I'm sure she never farts.)

No, no, no! That's quite wrong (apart from the "arrogant" bit) - I am arguing that science does not know everything. I am trying to counter the suggestion that everything can be explained by science now, or at some time in the future. Currently (I am told), science regards atoms as "unknowable".

It's true, science does not know everything. Probably never will know everything. But religion knows nothing, cannot prove anything, and is based upon supposition and guesswork rather than facts. And calling something a miracle just because science cannot explain it doesn't make it so.

[Ozme52]

Of course you can still call me Red! I don't think you'd have a problem finding people who agree that child molesterers, serial killers and other cold-blooded killers, etc., are wicked. The gray area lies in intent. In some cultures, it's customary to chop off the hand of a thief. Is a person who steals food because he's starving the same as a person who steals for a living rather than work an honest job or simply because he's greedy? I don't think so, and I don't think God thinks so either. I wouldn't press charges against a hungry person who runs off with a bag of groceries, but I'd let my investment broker rot in prison for running off with my retirement fund. Yeah, I know I'm hardly a saint. *eg* I believe the term commonly used is "sinner." What's your point? I'm not perfect. I know it. You know it. God knows it.

Btw, I believe the concept of sex strictly for procreation is an invention of the Catholic church, not God. I'm not Catholic, so I don't buy into that nor do I fornicate only in the missionary position, which was supposedly the optimal position for conception. I also use birth control. In addition, I'm divorced, so anyone who fornicates with me is committing adultery. *GASP* I guess this means I'm on the highway to hell.

My intent is not to argue the specifics per se. Just the concepts of science v. religion as manifested in the concept of miracles and down all the tangents that takes us... (hmmm did I just contradict myself? )

I'm spiritual but not "religious"... mostly because of the connection to organized religion that implies. But I will stand by my statement. Who gets to decide what is wicked?

All of your examples sends chills up our spines. Of course we all agree child-molesters and serial and other cold-blooded killers are evil and will be or should be punished both here on earth and by god...

But wait!! Please define child-molester. Are all our British friends going to hell? They use a different age than we use in the USA. I'm not actually asking you to define it... Ancient Jews consider 13 to be the age of assent. And in many cultures girls became marriable upon menstruation.

Just pointing out the folly of general statements when arguing 'right and wrong'.

[Thorne]

But wait!! Please define child-molester. Are all our British friends going to hell? They use a different age than we use in the USA. I'm not actually asking you to define it... Ancient Jews consider 13 to be the age of assent. And in many cultures girls became marriable upon menstruation.

A long time ago I posted somewhere about this very idea. ( I think it was here when Rabbit took over and changed some rules about posting stories containing underage characters.) I'm not going to do the research again, but my recollection is that here in the US there was a very large variation between states regarding age for marriage. In at least one state, I believe, a girl of 14 could marry without her parents consent, and in many states she could marry with their consent. In other states women under 21 had to have their parents consent. There was even one country, as I recall, which allowed girls as young as 9 years old to be given away in marriage (I'm not certain, but I think it was Afghanistan under the Taliban.)

[ThisYouWillDo]

For all your very interesting and even learned responses to my trite postings, I cannot get past this point:

We all seem to agree that science cannot explain everything and possibly never will. But regardless of that, we have to argue from our current state of knowledge. It is certain that we do not know everything now.

Given that fact, the possibility has to be acknowledged that some things might happen as a result of divine interervention. Those of us who reject the idea of divinity are backing a hunch: we do not know that there is no god - at least, not in the terms of the only standard that is left: science, which requires rigorous proof before it says a thing is or is not so. We simply believe it. Until an apparent miracle can be scientifically explained, its cause can only be guessed at, and divine causes are imaginable.

This goes far beyond simple mechanical explanations: science must provide an answer to the question "why". Eventually, it must explain the mind of man, and account for self-awareness and abstractions. It must tell us what the square root of -1 is or why negative numbers cannot have roots. It must discover what caused the Big Bang, and what the purpose of the universe is. And it must confirm whether or not we are the crazed imaginings of some super being, or pawns in a huge chess game.

Finally, to prove its own validity, it has to demonstrate that science exists independently of god: it therefore has to prove there is no god.

Until it does all that, who's to say God isn't responsible after all?


TYWD

[Thorne]

For all your very interesting and even learned responses to my trite postings, I cannot get past this point:

We all seem to agree that science cannot explain everything and possibly never will. But regardless of that, we have to argue from our current state of knowledge. It is certain that we do not know everything now.

Given that fact, the possibility has to be acknowledged that some things might happen as a result of divine interervention. Those of us who reject the idea of divinity are backing a hunch: we do not know that there is no god - at least, not in the terms of the only standard that is left: science, which requires rigorous proof before it says a thing is or is not so. We simply believe it. Until an apparent miracle can be scientifically explained, its cause can only be guessed at, and divine causes are imaginable.

This goes far beyond simple mechanical explanations: science must provide an answer to the question "why". Eventually, it must explain the mind of man, and account for self-awareness and abstractions. It must tell us what the square root of -1 is or why negative numbers cannot have roots. It must discover what caused the Big Bang, and what the purpose of the universe is. And it must confirm whether or not we are the crazed imaginings of some super being, or pawns in a huge chess game.

Finally, to prove its own validity, it has to demonstrate that science exists independently of god: it therefore has to prove there is no god.

Until it does all that, who's to say God isn't responsible after all?


TYWD

Once again we seem to batting this subject back and forth with no real way to resolve it. As you say, it's all a matter of belief.
One thing that I think you and I are both guilty of here, though, is treating science as if it were a living entity, a god if you will. It's not. It is simply a tool, a method of explaining the world around us, of investigating those things we don't understand. Science is humanity seeking to learn about the universe we live in.
Can we prove that God does not exist? Absolutely not. One thing that science HAS taught us is that you cannot prove a negative. You cannot prove that something is impossible. But for all the time and effort that mankind has spent trying to prove the existence of gods, we are no closer to that proof now than we were when we worshiped the volcano gods.
And to my way of thinking, a belief in miracles stems from the same roots as a belief in a divine creator: it's an attempt to explain our world when unexplainable things happen. When you have no concept of geologic forces, it's just as valid to suppose that there is some sort of superior being living in that mountain who vomits out lava periodically.
The problem there, though, is that you can get the idea that there's something you can do to appease that being, to make him stop the destruction. And that's when you have some really smart guy, who really hates working for a living, step up and say, "All we have to do is toss a virgin into the mountain and the god will be satisfied." And when that doesn't work, well, we must really be bad, so let's find another virgin. And maybe the volcano will die down, as it's done in the past, or maybe it will destroy the village. But either way, that smart guy has it covered and before you know it he has everyone convinced that the god speaks only through him and if they don't follow the god's directions really bad things will happen.
So I say, let's forget about the gods. Let's find the real reason for that volcano erupting. Maybe we can't do anything about it, but at least we won't have to sacrifice any virgins to it. I can think of much more enjoyable things to do with them!

[TomOfSweden]

Well therein lies the issue. Where does science end.

I think it's even simpler. Some people are just more critically minded than others. That's a skill that is taught in schools, not necessarily by science institutions. And it can also be learned simply by living life. The scientific discussions on the gods existence from a scientific view, are on such a high level that it's mostly just an amusing parlour game. The supernatural religions fails before it even comes to the point where science is relevant. They're always forced to make mind boggling assumptions, for which they have absolutely no basis. This doesn't make it wrong, but it does question the basis for faith. There's a world of difference between having a theory which sounds compelling and having faith in it. I guess what makes scientifically minded people different is there ability to have faith in several different theories, and apply a ratio between how great the possibility is that any of them is right.

Christianity 000.1, Islam 000.1, Judaism 00000.1, Buddhism 000.3, Hinduism 000.1, Flying Spagghetti monster 000.1. aww god I'm cruel now. Sorry about that. The subject of religion is just asking for it.

[ThisYouWillDo]

I guess what makes scientifically minded people different is there ability to have faith in several different theories, and apply a ratio between how great the possibility is that any of them is right.

Christianity 000.1, Islam 000.1, Judaism 00000.1, Buddhism 000.3, Hinduism 000.1, Flying Spagghetti monster 000.1. aww god I'm cruel now. Sorry about that.

Now, that I can agree with. I have never really tried to exclude the probability that science has the best, more believeable, more probable answers. I have just tried to acknowledge that there is a conceptual possibility, however improbable, that events could be divinely influenced.

Personally, I think the existence of a Flying Spaghetti Monster is far more probable than that of a divinity: I have seen spaghetti fly with my own eyes, due to a minor dispute with "her indoors"!

So back to the original question: Do you believe in miracles? Yes I do believe they just might happen, but I believe it is far, far more likely that they don't.

TYWD

[Captain]

I absolutely believe in miracles. I believe some are performed by God, and others through the natural occurrence of scientific probability. Let me explain. If someone is suddenly healed from a serious illness, it could that God healed them, or it was a one in a million scientific natural healing.

I believe God gave us free will and does not interact in our everyday lives as much as most religous people think. If he controlled our every move, thought, feeling, emotion...what would be the point in making us in the first place? God intends for us to lead good lives under our own free will.

[Thorne]

I believe God gave us free will and does not interact in our everyday lives as much as most religous people think. If he controlled our every move, thought, feeling, emotion...what would be the point in making us in the first place? God intends for us to lead good lives under our own free will.

If we assume that you are right, who defines what "good" is: some smarmy TV evangelist who takes badly needed pennies from his viewers while driving around in a limousine and wearing $500 suits? A book which was devised 2000 years ago and which has been edited and adjusted to justify a repressive religion? Or perhaps some insane jihadist who hates anyone who's not as insane as he is?

No, if God exists, an assumption I'm not ready to make, he's certainly not interested in the goings-on on this ball of dirt. For mankind to assume that God is so consumed with our lives that he would change things around just because someone prays to him is the height of egotism.

[Ozme52]

I just read A War of Gifts by Orson Scott Card.

It's an 'Ender' story and quite nice. Embedded in the midst of the story is a very very cogent perspective of faith with regard to the Bible.

Basically... the central character believes that God had the writers of the bible, men, explain things in a manner mankind could understand within the scope of knowledge at the time.

Now we know more about how the world really works... our understanding of God's works should change accordingly. Imagine... all you really have to believe is that God wrote the code and kick-started our universe. Big Bang. Believe in that and you can probably have faith and science too.

[Thorne]

I just read A War of Gifts by Orson Scott Card.

It's an 'Ender' story and quite nice. Embedded in the midst of the story is a very very cogent perspective of faith with regard to the Bible.

Basically... the central character believes that God had the writers of the bible, men, explain things in a manner mankind could understand within the scope of knowledge at the time.

Now we know more about how the world really works... our understanding of God's works should change accordingly. Imagine... all you really have to believe is that God wrote the code and kick-started our universe. Big Bang. Believe in that and you can probably have faith and science too.

Yeah, I've heard similar concepts. And to be honest I have no quarrel with the idea. My belief, though, is that the universe is cyclical, exploding into being, expanding for billions of years, then slowly contracting back into the cosmic egg before exploding once again. If you can live with the concept that God is eternal, why can't the universe be eternal?

Either way, unless you intend to ride out the end of the universe and step into the next one (see "Tau Zero" by Poul Anderson) I don't think there's any way to prove either point of view. Certainly not with our present scientific knowledge.

[mkemse]

Have never seen anything to convience me one way or the other

[Ozme52]

Yeah, I've heard similar concepts. And to be honest I have no quarrel with the idea. My belief, though, is that the universe is cyclical, exploding into being, expanding for billions of years, then slowly contracting back into the cosmic egg before exploding once again. If you can live with the concept that God is eternal, why can't the universe be eternal?

Either way, unless you intend to ride out the end of the universe and step into the next one (see "Tau Zero" by Poul Anderson) I don't think there's any way to prove either point of view. Certainly not with our present scientific knowledge.

Agreed. But by that very fact, (at least as far as we know as of now,) it's the one place that perhaps the two beliefs can easily co-exist. And more importantly, the issue between science and faith can also coexist.

[Thorne]

It's funny that I seem to have empirical evidence and still I find myself doubting but if you want evidence that is astounding, I have three miracles to share. I’ll be brief.

Okay, I'm going to take you at your word that these things happened as you say they happened, or at least as you remember them. I have no doubt that you honestly believe them, and I cannot, of course, definitively say that they were NOT miracles. But I may have alternative explanations which don't necessarily require the intervention of God.

Situation one: I fell off a house and screamed Gods name as I was falling when I was nine. As I was rolling down I saw my feet go over my head and my life was ending before me. I didn't scream it as though I was begging, I screamed it as though God were my parent and I was informing him that I needed his care right then and there. I am telling you, and I'm not playing, I was instantaneously at the top of the roof again as though nothing had ever happened.

My first instinct is that this was probably a very vivid, perhaps even repetitive, dream. Maybe even a waking dream. You are playing on the roof, your mom or dad have warned you that you could fall off and get hurt, and perhaps you slipped a bit. Your mind fabricated everything right down to just above ground level. Then you woke up. As I understand it, it's common for people who are dreaming of falling to wake just before they hit. It's even happened to me. Unless there were witnesses who saw you miraculously teleported back to the roof top, I'll have to go with this explanation.

Situation two: I became deaf in one ear in college for three months. I had always been taught in my religion to expect instantaneous healings since it was what Jesus taught his disciples and tried to get them to pass the word on. I hadn't prayed about it at all when one night I decided that I was a Christian Scientist and I should be able to heal myself instantaneously. So I knew that I was a child of God. Not born into matter and that my rightful heritage was spiritual. I had only been knowing the truth for one minute max when all the fluid drained from my ear in that very instant.

We often hear about people who seem to have achieved a cure through the power of faith, or the power of the mind. It's true that the mind can do some pretty amazing things, as can the body, in times of stress. People have been known to perform some amazing physical feats to save a loved one. It can generally be explained without resorting to the mystical.
I take it that you suffered with this malady without seeing a doctor? If you had, he would probably have diagnosed a cyst of some sort and drained it himself. As it was, you had to wait for the cyst to "ripen" until it burst on its own. The belief that you magically (or miraculously, if you prefer) cured it in less than a minute is, I believe, likely to be a fiction your mind formed to try to explain it all.

Situation three: I was about 50 miles inland in the middle of nowhere. My job as an ornithologist required very remote settings. I became lost as I lost my flag line. I wondered aimlessly for 30 minutes and then panic set in. I realized my life was in danger. There literally was no way out but by boat which was an hour walk to the boat and the boat ride took 30 minutes and to get out of the forest took another 45 minutes by car. I was screwed if I didn't find the flag line! I told God. I will calm down and listen. He said to me, "Stop and know that I am God." So I stopped and prayed. He was quiet and I didn't hear him and began to get nervous so I stopped again and listened very carefully. He told me 90 degrees. So I was startled and turned my compass 90 degrees. Nothing. I thought, "That's the wrong way anyway." So I decided to head at about 350 degrees. Well I didn't make it more than three feet when I ran into a web of a spider! With the spider in it! I thought that was a sign from God so I backed up. I went back to where God had told me to turn my compass to 90 degrees. I looked again but nothing. Then I thought to myself. If He says it is 90 then it is 90. So I started at the ground and with a straight line I ran my compass into the air and it was the last flag on the corner of the plot dangling over 10 feet in the air. Holy Cow! It was then that I remembered that in Arkansas, the Tensas River National Wildlife Refuge is under water when the flags were put in. God had saved my life again!

You know, Moses doubted God once and the Israelites had to wander in the wilderness for 40 years. You must be particularly holy if God gave you a second chance!
No, again I must rely on the power of the mind. Consciously you were lost, and you were frightened and panicked. Understandably. But your subconscious mind was keeping track all along. It was only when you calmed yourself down, and allowed the subconscious to exert some control over your conscious mind, that you "remembered" the way out.

I am not trying to ridicule your beliefs or minimize these events. I'm sure they had a profound influence upon you. But the interpretations you, and I, make are all subjective. I am not happy with the mystical explanations and prefer more rational ones. You are convinced that God has interceded in your life. I certainly can't prove that I'm right and you're wrong. But then, neither can you.

Coincidence? If so then I should sign up for the lottery!

If God wanted you to be rich, He wouldn't have to depend upon the lottery to do it, would He?

[ThisYouWillDo]

Well, all I can say is, it's a poor kind of god that favours some people over others for no obvious reason. What have you done to deserve three life-saving miracles, plus wealth, while other good people starve and die, fall into the hands of psychopaths and so on.

Good luck to you, Pro-Dom, I'm not envious, and I do not begrudge you your good fortune, but if you're argument is true, God is hateful.

[Thorne]

Well Thorne, I have to say that I had 5 witnesses when I fell off the roof since we were jumping from the roof onto a trampoline. In the second senario I had put hydrogen peroxide in my ear to clean it out better. Stupid! True. But it was there for three months so why in the only minute that I was praying during that whole three months did it decide to drain right then and there? Finally, I thought that 350 degrees was the correct angle and had the 90 degrees not been said to me at the very moment when I was standing next to the flag, there is no way I could have seen it in the thick swamps. Remember I'd been wondering aimlessly for 30 minutes before realizing that I was truly lost. I think that it is important as well to be sure that it is not bullshit which is why God could fall from the sky and I would still doubt but I know for a fact that this happened and that the moment for opportunity was slim to none. If these are all coincidences then that implies there is no God and then I have revealed myself to be a winner at slim opportunities which would make the lottery a good bet. P.S. I am wealthy so I guess he's already intervened there.

So, those 5 witnesses actually saw you levitate back up onto the roof? Or saw you vanish into thin air and reappear on the roof? Or is it possible you fell off the roof, hit the trampoline and landed back on the roof?
As for the ear, I'm not a doctor, but perhaps a sudden drop in blood pressure as you grew calm while you prayed.
And after being lost, once again you calmed yourself while praying and this allowed your mind to work more freely. It's been well documented that there are significant physical changes which occur when devout people pray: drop in blood pressure, changes in cerebral activity, and so on.

Like TYWD, I would have to wonder why you have been singled out to receive such blessings from a God who seems to have abandoned even some of his most faithful servants. It would seem to be a most capricious God indeed.

[mkemse]

To be honest, I have never seen or not seen anything to make me believe either way, sorry if that sounds strange

[ThisYouWillDo]

I am one of the confirmed atheists who is prepared to admit that he is wrong. That's not to say I'm agnostic, I truly believe there is no god - but I could be wrong. You have completely failed to change my mind, however.

Now you might have been taught that God has no favourites, but the evidence is there to demonstrate quite clearly the opposite. Look at Africa. Look at the Middle East. Look, even, at the inner cities of the West. Then look at the wealth of western farmers, industrialists and bankers, most of whose wealth was taken from the poor: precious little was earned by the sweat of their brows! Look too at the ostentatious wealth of the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Anglican Churches. Then regard their poor missions to developing countries. God's work or Satan's? You tell me.

(I recall it used to be said that most of the brothels in London were owned by the Church of England!)

The USA could take several of the poorest nations out of poverty at a stroke if it chose to, so too could Britain, Germany, France and Japan. Many other developed nations could make significant inroads on the dire poverty some of God's children face daily. They prefer to serve their own interests first.

Besides, the Bible tells us that the Jews are God's Chosen People after he made a covenant with Abraham to bless and protect the Jewish people provided they worshipped him faithfully.

If there is a God, he DOES have favourites. Your teachers lied to you, or at least, misled you.

We have already established, in another thread, that God is not perfect and also that he is probably malign, as he "tests" his perfect creations (which, if perfect, could not fail). We all know that we are imperfect and flawed, and God knew beforehand that we would fail his test.

After we failed, he punished us.

Some people see the truth clearly, others see mirages.

TYWD

[Thorne]

After we failed, he punished us.

Even that would be consistent. But we aren't even given a chance! IF the bible is accurate, then God has punished all the generations of mankind for the sins of one man and one woman! This is certainly not the action of a just and merciful god.

[mkemse]

I do not wish to make light of or a joke out of this serious question, but If the Chicago Cubs win the World Series in 2008 I will in fact believe in miracles, they will be ilvinig proof after 100 years of waiting that miracles do happen

[ThisYouWillDo]

Don't know anything about the Cubs, but as a Leicester City supporter, I understand the sentiment!

[ThisYouWillDo]

<deleted: just an unnecessary smart-arse comment.>

[Warbaby1943]

Simply put do you believe that God still performs miracles today?

Simply answered - yes I do.

[TomOfSweden]

It's funny that I seem to have empirical evidence and still I find myself doubting but if you want evidence that is astounding, I have three miracles to share. I’ll be brief.

Situation one: I fell off a house and screamed Gods name as I was falling when I was nine. As I was rolling down I saw my feet go over my head and my life was ending before me. I didn't scream it as though I was begging, I screamed it as though God were my parent and I was informing him that I needed his care right then and there. I am telling you, and I'm not playing, I was instantaneously at the top of the roof again as though nothing had ever happened.

Situation two: I became deaf in one ear in college for three months. I had always been taught in my religion to expect instantaneous healings since it was what Jesus taught his disciples and tried to get them to pass the word on. I hadn't prayed about it at all when one night I decided that I was a Christian Scientist and I should be able to heal myself instantaneously. So I knew that I was a child of God. Not born into matter and that my rightful heritage was spiritual. I had only been knowing the truth for one minute max when all the fluid drained from my ear in that very instant.

Situation three: I was about 50 miles inland in the middle of nowhere. My job as an ornithologist required very remote settings. I became lost as I lost my flag line. I wondered aimlessly for 30 minutes and then panic set in. I realized my life was in danger. There literally was no way out but by boat which was an hour walk to the boat and the boat ride took 30 minutes and to get out of the forest took another 45 minutes by car. I was screwed if I didn't find the flag line! I told God. I will calm down and listen. He said to me, "Stop and know that I am God." So I stopped and prayed. He was quiet and I didn't hear him and began to get nervous so I stopped again and listened very carefully. He told me 90 degrees. So I was startled and turned my compass 90 degrees. Nothing. I thought, "That's the wrong way anyway." So I decided to head at about 350 degrees. Well I didn't make it more than three feet when I ran into a web of a spider! With the spider in it! I thought that was a sign from God so I backed up. I went back to where God had told me to turn my compass to 90 degrees. I looked again but nothing. Then I thought to myself. If He says it is 90 then it is 90. So I started at the ground and with a straight line I ran my compass into the air and it was the last flag on the corner of the plot dangling over 10 feet in the air. Holy Cow! It was then that I remembered that in Arkansas, the Tensas River National Wildlife Refuge is under water when the flags were put in. God had saved my life again!

Coincidence? If so then I should sign up for the lottery!

The thing is that I've experienced plenty of similar things. It's just that my assumption has always been that it's my mind playing tricks on me. This is down to faith. I've got a great one with the sky lighting up, angels, trumpets, divine presences and a great epiphany. The whole circus. But even though I've seen it, I'm still convinced that there was nothing there. That's my faith. I have a very over active mind. If I gave that credence, I'll have to have faith in all kinds of monsters and space aliens. I've chosen to give all of them a miss. Faith.

We know perception is interpretative. Basically, if we believe in God, we'll see God everywhere, and if we don't, we won't. So here is the dilemma. Since we can't trust our senses, how do we know what is really there?

Christians seem to be at ease about the fact that God is hiding whenever Scientists try to prove his existence, or even whenever there's a measuring device in the vicinity. Personally, that only serves to make me suspicious, but that's just me. And it's certainly no proof God doesn't perform miracles, or even exists. But if God would exist it would strongly suggest that God didn't want me specifically to believe in him/her. Just out of respect for Gods wishes, I'll refrain from faith in him/her.

amen

Here's a fun little video on topic


edit:
... and there's that great quote from Jesus Christ superstar. From Judas lips:

"Everytime I look at you I don't understand
Why you let the things you did get so out of hand
You'd have managed better if you'd had it planned
Why'd you choose such a backward time and such a strange land?
If you'd come TODAY you would have reached a whole nation
Israel in 4 BC had no mass communication
Don't you get me wrong - I only want to know"

That's a film I don't understand how it could keep from being black listed by Christian fundamentalists. To me it's a vitriolic attack on Christianity as a whole. But, hey... that's just my interpretation.

[ThisYouWillDo]

You're considerate to a fault, Tom

[ThisYouWillDo]

ProDom

I was about to make a considered rebuttal to your last post about coke bottles and walking in truth with God - and then I realised - you're having a laugh aren't you!!!!

HA HA HA

TYWD