Iraqis still ask if U.S. invasion was worth it

[mkemse]

[QUOTE=Moonraker;582337]I question to what extent there is an Al Qaeda as portrayed by the USA and whether there is too much misplaced focus on this "enemy".

The US seems to be promoting the idea of a Smersh type organisation with a central leadership controlling cells around the world. You cut off the head and the snake dies. Really the problem is fundamental Islamic militancy. So the enemy is more of a concept than a single group. It's like the mafia, if you capture the Don of a New York family have you eradicated organised crime throughout the world? I suspect that, aside from 911, Bin Ladins importance was that he had money and experience. So if you had a scheme you could go to him and if he supported the plan you could get financing for it.[/QU

i believe that most Islamic Terrorists view Bin Ladin as a "Savior" or "God" and thus will do anything he asks them
And I amn not an expert on the Quran, but I have heard Islamic Clerks say infact that the Quran specificly prohbits killing or violence of any kind for any reason, thus BinLaden does not even follow his own holy book
and amaziing enough in the late 1980's Bin Laden was hired by the United States Governement (The CIA) to help fight off Russia when they invaded Afghanistan in 1989, now he is attacking us

[TomOfSweden]

i believe that most Islamic Terrorists view Bin Ladin as a "Savior" or "God" and thus will do anything he asks them

Pure George Bush propaganda. I'm convinced there's no basis for this belief. You're mythologising the "enemy". I'm guessing you're reducing them to some evil fantasy creature to enoble yourself. To make you feel better about yourself and your countries actions. Few things pisses me off as much as this.

Islamic terrorists are just a bunch of half-wit losers. I mean, just check out Richard Read!!! There's no coherent ideology behind any of them. It's just random bouts of lunatic ramblings from poor and uneducated people who want at least a moment in the spotlight. I'm sure Bin Laden sees himself as some kind of prophet. I'm very doubtful anybody else does.

You do realise that by talking about Al Qaeda as some kind of international conspiracy of Islam, you're giving these poor sods in run down Ghettoes n the world an incentive to do terror? A method to make a mark in life. If everybody would assume that these guys are just random pathetic losers acting completely alone with very little support, (which the evidence in most cases seems to indicate) they'd have no incentive to carry out any acts of terror. Because then people would just feel sorry for them instead of feeling fear.... which is their goal.

And I amn not an expert on the Quran, but I have heard Islamic Clerks say infact that the Quran specificly prohbits killing or violence of any kind for any reason, thus BinLaden does not even follow his own holy book
and amaziing enough in the late 1980's Bin Laden was hired by the United States Governement (The CIA) to help fight off Russia when they invaded Afghanistan in 1989, now he is attacking us

I've studied both the Koran and the Bible. I'm very interested in religious history. The Bible and the Koran are interchangeable. The Koran is just less vague. But not a lot.

[Moonraker]

And I amn not an expert on the Quran, but I have heard Islamic Clerks say infact that the Quran specificly prohbits killing or violence of any kind for any reason, thus BinLaden does not even follow his own holy book

I have read the Quran but cannot offhand point you to relevant texts. Suffice it to say that since beheading is the Sharia penalty for certain crimes and Mohammed fought several wars killing you may be in error here.

This seems to be a popular US tactic, trying to use the Quaran to prove terrorist are not "real" muslims and thereby isolate them. I see this tactic as potentially counter-productive. If you are wrong about a terrorists act being "haram" (prohibited in the Quaran) it will just reenforce the view that westerners know little about Islamic culture religion and are telling lies all the time. This then alienates mainstream muslims pushing them closer to the extremists.

Similarly portraying them as crazies (as Tom of Sweden does) is also a risky tactic. For sure the suicide bombers are pawns but I don't think the planners who know precisely the optimum floor for the plane to hit its target are that stupid. It is often considered foolhardy to underestimate your adversary and I would hope those responsible for counter terrorism dont believe their own propoganda.

[Thorne]

I have read the Quran but cannot offhand point you to relevant texts. Suffice it to say that since beheading is the Sharia penalty for certain crimes and Mohammed fought several wars killing you may be in error here.

If, as Tom says, the Bible and Quran are virtually interchangeable, then the prohibition against killing seems only to apply to other Arabs (Quran), Jews (Old Testament) or Christians (King James Bible). In virtually every culture throughout history, killing of barbarians, heretics, outsiders, just "those who are not like us" has always been looked at differently than killing within the community. This is, after all, what makes wars possible.

Similarly portraying them as crazies (as Tom of Sweden does) is also a risky tactic. For sure the suicide bombers are pawns but I don't think the planners who know precisely the optimum floor for the plane to hit its target are that stupid. It is often considered foolhardy to underestimate your adversary and I would hope those responsible for counter terrorism dont believe their own propoganda.

Crazy does not necessarily equate with stupid. It's crazy to strap a bomb to your chest and explode it, knowing you are going to die. It's crazy to fly an airplane into a building, knowing you are killing hundreds of people, including yourself. It does take some intelligence to learn to fly that plane, even marginally, well enough to crash it. And it takes a lot of intelligence to plan and coordinate all the intricate elements of such a plan.

But I don't care how smart they are, I doubt very much that any of the planners truly expected the towers to fall as they did. I don't think anyone could have predicted that. It's only in hindsight, after much analysis, that we understand just how that happened.

[mkemse]

If, as Tom says, the Bible and Quran are virtually interchangeable, then the prohibition against killing seems only to apply to other Arabs (Quran), Jews (Old Testament) or Christians (King James Bible). In virtually every culture throughout history, killing of barbarians, heretics, outsiders, just "those who are not like us" has always been looked at differently than killing within the community. This is, after all, what makes wars possible.


Crazy does not necessarily equate with stupid. It's crazy to strap a bomb to your chest and explode it, knowing you are going to die. It's crazy to fly an airplane into a building, knowing you are killing hundreds of people, including yourself. It does take some intelligence to learn to fly that plane, even marginally, well enough to crash it. And it takes a lot of intelligence to plan and coordinate all the intricate elements of such a plan.

But I don't care how smart they are, I doubt very much that any of the planners truly expected the towers to fall as they did. I don't think anyone could have predicted that. It's only in hindsight, after much analysis, that we understand just how that happened.

I agree and when it come to Islamc Terroistss, please Allah(hope i spelled that right) and dying for him and the cause seems more important to most Islamic Terrosits the anything else, Islamic Terrorsists have no regard for any human life