Do you believe in miracles?

[stripedangel]

It's such a specific scenario catering to a very slim definition of God. Maybe? It's not even clear anything religious is intended with the original question. I think the question you are thinking about needed to be formulated more along these lines:

"If the [insert religion] theory of God would be true according to the [insert denomination/sect], do you think that it follows, that God still performs miracles".

By formulating the question as if it would be straightforward, or made sense as is, the creator is trying to play down the complexities of the question.

Without a kind of scenario given as I did, it is in fact impossible to answer.

Are you telling me that with your high intelligence, you cannot simply recognize that it is a question for whatever religion? What's it matter the religion of the thread starter?

So, why not answer it according to what you believe, in stead of complaining that your religion (or non-religion, whichever the case may be) was left out?

So, Tom, according to what you believe, if you believe in God, and that he performed miracles, do you believe that He still performs miracles today?

[TomOfSweden]

Are you telling me that with your high intelligence, you cannot simply recognize that it is a question for whatever religion? What's it matter the religion of the thread starter?

So, why not answer it according to what you believe, in stead of complaining that your religion (or non-religion, whichever the case may be) was left out?

So, Tom, according to what you believe, if you believe in God, and that he performed miracles, do you believe that He still performs miracles today?

What about the Pantheist definition of God. Where God is the naturalistic universe following the laws of nature. I think it is totally valid to assume that is what is being meant since pantheism is the fastest growing religion in the world right now.

Anyway even if we believe in the Catholic Christian definition of God... then ...still ... no. We don't think that way. God created the laws of nature. The laws of nature is Gods work. When/if God breaks the laws of nature, then those breaks would be included in the laws of nature.

So it gets reduced to a semantic inconsistency. A miracle is the laws of nature being broken, but every break results us to redefine nature to incorporate the breaks as intrinsic to its laws. So with our paradigm of how we think of nature, miracles are impossible. We have no way of recognizing laws of nature being broken as described in the Bible in our language. Christianity rests on that humans/science reject certain Godly laws of nature, only to use the same as evidence of Gods existence. Confusing?

How about that for developing my position? It's just a matter of perspective.
Wasn't it the Muslim philosopher Avicenna who said that there's no point in doing science since everything is a miracle? Everything that happens is Gods will, so why bother studying it? Basically that everything is a miracle so the acts of Jesus, was just as normal/abnormal as everything else.

And even if we're atheist, and God exists. If a trajectory goes straight for 15 billion years and then wobbles a bit, science just assumes that the wobble is nature, and normal, no matter what caused it, and expect that it'll wobble again 15 billion years later. No matter its divine origin science will never understand it as a miracle. We have no way of detecting breaks in the laws of nature even if they did take place.

Christianity and the monotheistic theory of God is not philosophically or scientifically simple. I don't think it's possible to be Christian and understand your faith without studying philosophy for fucking ages. I know a guy who's done that. But he's stripped away so much from Christianity to make it consistent that it would be unrecognisable for the common unread evangelical Christian. Threads like this gloss over the philosophical problems. The interesting bits. And if one doesn't care, then why discuss it?

Was this thread only about affirming ones faith? Not understanding it? My left eye twitches when I come into contact with blind faith propaganda.

[Mr.FixIt]

Was this thread only about affirming ones faith? Not understanding it? My left eye twitches when I come into contact with blind faith propaganda.

What color is your car? If you believe that it is blue, why? It is simply because someone told you that the color that you see is known as blue, and you believed it, blindly. I am literally colorblind. I see colors different than you do. But, are you seeing the colors correctly, or am I? You believing that your car is blue could also be simply your own blind faith.

But is blind faith wrong then? Maybe not. You go ahead and believe that your car is blue, and I will believe that God exists. I won't try to convince you that your car is not blue if you will not try to convince me that God does not exist.

But, you still have not answered the original question. It seems that through all of your intellectual jargon, you, for some reason, are skirting the issue.

[TomOfSweden]

What color is your car? If you believe that it is blue, why? It is simply because someone told you that the color that you see is known as blue, and you believed it, blindly. I am literally colorblind. I see colors different than you do. But, are you seeing the colors correctly, or am I? You believing that your car is blue could also be simply your own blind faith.

He he. Now you succinctly summed up the problem philosophy has been grappling with for the last 250 years. The problem is that we are changing reality by watching it. We are loading it in a way to suit our needs. My reality isn't the same as yours. Neither of us has access to the real reality. So much philosophers can agree on. No philosopher since Plato has claimed that the true reality is accessible to any human ever. So I think that a good answer is that neither you nor I know that correct interpretation of the colour of the car.

But that doesn't mean that there is no reality. Philosophical relativism is not the same thing as reality being arbitrary. Reality is there, we just can't use our common sense or senses and pretend like that's some kind of definite proof of anything. This is where semantics and science helps. Numbers and measurements are less open to interpretations than vague concepts like colour or feelings.

My car is R: 256, G: 0, B: 0

But is blind faith wrong then? Maybe not. You go ahead and believe that your car is blue, and I will believe that God exists. I won't try to convince you that your car is not blue if you will not try to convince me that God does not exist.

Of course blind faith is wrong. Blind faith is the same thing as arbitrary faith. It's just a rhetoric question. Blind faith is always worthless. Nobody believes anything based on blind faith. It's always based on evidence and conclusions drawn from them. Always. One might be wrong or basing ones faith on sketchy evidence, but that's not the same thing as blind faith.

But, you still have not answered the original question. It seems that through all of your intellectual jargon, you, for some reason, are skirting the issue.

I believe I answered this in my first post in this thread.

[stripedangel]

I believe I answered this in my first post in this thread.

Missed that one...I even looked to make sure. Sorry.

i am a Christian. i believe in God, and i believe that there is a higher power out there, no matter what you call it. Everyone learns about a higher power...Greek Gods/desses, Mayan Gods, etc. Native Americans beieve in the higher powers of Mother Earth. I don't down others' beliefs,and i believe it's the same higher power with many different names and forms. We've all learned it differently.

i also believe that those who are not secure in their own beliefs will try and force those beliefs on others, in an attempt to validate them. You'll never see me on your front porch with tracts and scriptures. Your salvation (or non-salvation) is your business.

I don't care that there is no "absolute proof" of God's existance. The proof need only be in my heart. I've seen what His light has done for myself, my family, and many of my friends. I don't attend church. They don't seem to understand that my relationship with God is MINE, not to be interfered with by anyone. I don't need instruction from them, i have the Bible. i have Master, who knows the Bible very well. i have friends and a Master who will pray with me when i request it. .......and i believe that God placed the Bible, my family, Master, and my friends in my path for a reason.

I met Master at a park that neither of us had been to. He was 45 days from the start of his enlistment. We were just gonna be fuck-buddies (sorry for the vulgarity) until he went away. I lived in #107 at the Park Place Apartments...he lived in #7 at the Southeast Park Apartments (right next to Southeast Park, where we met). Just buddies...and less than two weeks after we met, he was proposing. We're soul mates, best friends, lovers, and now, Master and slave. Together, we've been able to do a lot of good things for ourselves and others. We have been there to lend aid and see 3 people and a dog die in 3 different car accidents, all within a few months' time. We've been able to pitch in and help send a friend for a potentially life-saving operation. We have always tried to be generous and helpful, anytime we get a chance. How long does a miracle take? Is it a "one-fell-swoop" kinda thing, or can it take years? Could it be a miracle that Master and i met like we did? Neither of us was in a good place in life when we met...but we are now! How would our lives have been otherwise? As good as it is now? There's no way to test that, so i will say it happened for God's reason!

i had "blind faith" in Master When i said "yes" to his proposal. i guess if "blind faith" is "wrong"......then i don't wanna be right...but now, my faith in my Master is no longer "blind."

[GearJammer]

Missed that one...I even looked to make sure. Sorry.

i am a Christian. i believe in God, and i believe that there is a higher power out there, no matter what you call it. Everyone learns about a higher power...Greek Gods/desses, Mayan Gods, etc. Native Americans beieve in the higher powers of Mother Earth. I don't down others' beliefs,and i believe it's the same higher power with many different names and forms. We've all learned it differently.

i also believe that those who are not secure in their own beliefs will try and force those beliefs on others, in an attempt to validate them. You'll never see me on your front porch with tracts and scriptures. Your salvation (or non-salvation) is your business.

I don't care that there is no "absolute proof" of God's existance. The proof need only be in my heart. I've seen what His light has done for myself, my family, and many of my friends. I don't attend church. They don't seem to understand that my relationship with God is MINE, not to be interfered with by anyone. I don't need instruction from them, i have the Bible. i have Master, who knows the Bible very well. i have friends and a Master who will pray with me when i request it. .......and i believe that God placed the Bible, my family, Master, and my friends in my path for a reason.

I met Master at a park that neither of us had been to. He was 45 days from the start of his enlistment. We were just gonna be fuck-buddies (sorry for the vulgarity) until he went away. I lived in #107 at the Park Place Apartments...he lived in #7 at the Southeast Park Apartments (right next to Southeast Park, where we met). Just buddies...and less than two weeks after we met, he was proposing. We're soul mates, best friends, lovers, and now, Master and slave. Together, we've been able to do a lot of good things for ourselves and others. We have been there to lend aid and see 3 people and a dog die in 3 different car accidents, all within a few months' time. We've been able to pitch in and help send a friend for a potentially life-saving operation. We have always tried to be generous and helpful, anytime we get a chance. How long does a miracle take? Is it a "one-fell-swoop" kinda thing, or can it take years? Could it be a miracle that Master and i met like we did? Neither of us was in a good place in life when we met...but we are now! How would our lives have been otherwise? As good as it is now? There's no way to test that, so i will say it happened for God's reason!

i had "blind faith" in Master When i said "yes" to his proposal. i guess if "blind faith" is "wrong"......then i don't wanna be right...but now, my faith in my Master is no longer "blind."

The opposite of faith is not unbelief. Faith, as a matter of fact, is not belief. Faith is WHY one believes. The opposite of faith, then, is sight. No doubt you have faith in your master, but as to the matters you described as associated with the blind faith in the beginning... now you have sight on those.

[TomOfSweden]

i had "blind faith" in Master When i said "yes" to his proposal. i guess if "blind faith" is "wrong"......then i don't wanna be right...but now, my faith in my Master is no longer "blind."

No...no...no. "Blind faith" would have been if you had no prior experience of him, men or living life at all. Even your human instincts... the stuff we're born with that makes us go yummy when we see a firm and muscular ass removes you from the ability to claim that you said "yes" based on nothing but "blind faith".

Let's sort out the terminology. "Faith" is about measuring things and drawing conclusions from it. There's Kierkegaardian faith, (the so called "leap to faith") where you accept that there's holes in our ability to gather evidence about some things and you simply need to fill in the holes yourself to get a meaningful picture. But that still isn't blind faith. It is also different from the leap of faith, (as defined by Thomas Kuhn) which is when we've measured enough times with the same result to assume that it will always behave the same way. This is the type of faith who people who believe in scientific theories hold.

Both these are different from "hope" which is wishful thinking.

"Blind faith" is when we spend no time reflecting about anything, and rather try to beat any kind of thinking or reason out of the equation at all... probably because we subconsciously know that we're not going to like the result. Keeping ourselves intentionally in the dark because we're is fighting to keep a delusion intact. Blind faith is nothing anybody would want to be proud of ever. If you do, you haven't understood the terminology. To be blunt, it's a bit like tattooing the word "retard" in your forehead and sporting it proudly. Just don't. Please.

"Belief" covers all three definitions of "faith".

Maybe it was more like this: You squeezed that firm soldier ass and hoped that it would stay rock hard for a long while longer, and from this inferred that you were very much in love with him and couldn't care less about reason or measuring any damn thing! Could this have been a more accurate description of it? I doubt faith entered into it anywhere. It doesn't really fit.

Mr Fixit: I'm fucking proud of my intellectual jargon.

[stripedangel]

OK, Tom, i see your point about blind faith....i had it wrong.

So how 'bout responding to the REST of my post??