"Is that really love? Isn't that the commitment? Love can come both before and after we've made the commitment. But I'm pretty convinced love won't allow itself to be tied down. We can kill it within us, but we can't really make it run where ever we want it to. It's a bit stubborn and annoying that way."

I feel it is love, yes. I have spent an entire lifetime becoming me, building who I am and building the esteem I hold for myself. Upon meeting someone that responds to and is reflective of those same high values, a relationship and love grows. When I love, my commitment is to myself as much or more than it is to anyone else, and that commitment is to hold to my own values. I'm not sure how that ties love down? I'm not sure either how that causes it to run where I want it to? Really, I don't think I've ever tried to steer it someplace it isn't already going. That would rather defeart the purpose of it being a truth of any sort.

"Who here hasen't at one point in your lives hated yourself for loving someone?"

*raises hand* Um, I've been occasionally embarrassed over crushes based on physical attraction. Then I got to know the person and went, "sheesh, what was I thinking??" I have also occasionally been off base in my assessment of the qualities of the person I was falling for. It's never been fun, but to say I "hated" myself for loving or for staring to fall? Wow. Harsh. I can't see how you even could hate yourself for having love in your heart.

"And seriously, highest values? Ok, sure, you value somebody very highly. But are those the highest values? Really."

Tom, I think you misunderstood me. I said love was a choice made in response to the highest values we hold for ourselves. My love is based upon judgment of myself, what I want, MY highest values - when I find a person that represents that which I hold in esteem and respects me for doing so for myself, my response is the beginning of love. Toss in a little chemistry and now we're on our way to "in love."

[i]"I bought my wife 20 long roses yesterday just because I was so much in love. What's so high and noble about that?"[i/]

The high value and the nobility is simply the love you hold and why. The roses are just a small symbol of that. I can't imagine you love your wife as an act of pity toward her, do you? It's not a selfless love, born from a lack of love for yourself and an attempt to compensate for that, is it? If I were to take a stab, I would say you could list off MULTIPLE fine qualities your wife possesses and the fact that you enjoy those qualities and why speak volumes about the type of person you are. Your love for her is a response to your values, is a response to yourself. For someone with low values and little sense of self, sure, love may not be what a lot of people would consider "noble," but it is still a response by that person to what is most prevelant within them, thier highest values regardess of low their high may seem to the rest of the world.

"I understand why we would like to see that as something high and noble, since that means that we label our own greed and self gratification as a noble deed.... and who wouldn't want that?

When I give my wife/slave flowers its not because I make her happy. I become happy making her happy. So I do it for myself. The logical error is removing yourself from the equation. Thinking that the goal is to make her happy. It isn't. It's only about making yourself happy and using your tools you have avaialble."

We're right on the same page with each other, Tom. My post that spawned this was either misread or I failed to make myself clear enough.

"It's like "hey, I'm a rational being so my actions must be rational, and therefore my goal was to make her happy". But love isn't rational, so that screws up that line of reasoning. We just have to accept that human nature/instinct includes falling in love and making the object of our love happy. Human instinct is just another word for, what-ever-makes-us-happy."

I am going to disagree here. Just because we either can not or simply choose not to comprehend what causes us to choose the people and things we do, there is always a motivation behind our decisions, something that our brain rationalizes even though in practice our theory of the best course of action may crash and burn. Making ourselves happy seems pretty rational to me.

"I think there's a real danger in seeing love as something noble and giving. The danger is in that we might think we're entitled to something because we've shown our love. We might think that we're actually giving something that is valuable to the target. That's just setting yourself up for disappointment."

I see it as noble, but frankly it is taking as much as it ever is giving. By taking I mean, for me, the joy the feeling of loving gives me. When I am shown love, FABULOUS. Do I ever feel entitled? Hell no.

"I hear people saying all the time that pure love is a "selfless act". No, it isn't, its just that the person saying that has worked through half the rational but stopped before seeing where it ends.

Expressing love is like any self gratifying act. It's all about you.

Understanding that the target of our love doesn't owe us anything, and that it is only our own wish that our love is reciprocated is very healthy. It's quite understandable that we would want those who we love to feel compelled to return the expression of love. None of us wants our love to be wasted on people who doesn't appreciate or return it. But that really doesn't mean that that it still isn't just about you and what's going on in your own head. That fact that you love somebody doesn't necessarily mean they've gained anything they would value. And expressions of love they don't count as expressions of love, aren't for them, no matter how strongly you might feel they are.

I'm not devaluing love. I think its a beautiful and wonderful thing, or I wouldn't have bought my wife that large bouquet of flowers. I love it when my love is received by her and it makes her happy. But I'm very well aware that giving her the flowers was a selfish act on my part and it does not make me entitled to anything from her. I would be happy if she would feel the same way about me, (and I'm pretty convinced that she does, oooh my sweetest of snuggle muffins) but that in turn would only be about her. I wouldn't feel any pressure to to act in some special way.

We all know the feeling when we give somebody a gift they don't appreciate. They feel the need to act like they do, just to make us happy about the giving, ie expressing love.

Anyway, I felt the need to explain my earlier post some more. I wouldn't like to come across like some bitter old love-hating miser. Love is great and wonderful, but its all ultimately selfish.'

It's a good thing I consider selfishness a much underappreciated virtue. Thanks for the post, Tom.