Expressing Love...Hmm What's That?

[tessa]

What I wonder about, is how does it affect us to move in our life? I love my children no matter what (unconditionally if you will) however I don’t want them to spend the rest of their lives in my home.

You want them to mature into responsible, independent adults, capable of making decisions in the present that will positively affect their future, right? If that's the case, I think it's what most parents want for their children. Being the excellent example to epitomize lends to the success of that parent-wish.

Mother Theresa loved working with the poor but that is a far cry from a committed love relationship.

On the surface, of course it's different. I mean, Mother Teresa wasn't sexually involved with her charity work. But make no mistake, she was consumed with her work. The nature of her chosen religion and work as a nun set that fact in stone. And she took her vows seriously. She devoted her entire adult life to her work. The level of her commitment was much deeper than most will ever realize, whatever type relationship. To the subject of her devotion, she never stopped trying, she never retreated when things got super tough and she never quit. Isn't that what we all, in many ways, dream of when giving attributes to the perfect mate?

What is love to a couple, what does that cycle look like? We all know what falling in love is, or trusting in love or following love…really these all deal with the same issue romantic love, the process of falling in love. I’m interested in what keeps it going, what keeps people in love for a life time with each other?

I said it before- every single day, making the decision to keep the idea of that romantic love alive and thriving is what will sustain you both through to the end. I believe that if you have that spark to begin with, if the chemistry is strong enough, and the pure enjoyment of each other is in place, then that love can go on and on and on, even when it seems impossible at times that it can continue to be. But it is decided upon daily, as you make your way through this life we live.

But that decision, J-Go, is yours alone to make. And I wish you and Amber nothing but the very best in the making of it.

[TomOfSweden]

Really, I don't think I've ever tried to steer it someplace it isn't already going. That would rather defeart the purpose of it being a truth of any sort.

This is interesting. Now we're narrowing down the definition of love. But yeah, I agree, but it is I think up for debate.

"Who here hasen't at one point in your lives hated yourself for loving someone?"

*raises hand* Um, I've been occasionally embarrassed over crushes based on physical attraction. Then I got to know the person and went, "sheesh, what was I thinking??" I have also occasionally been off base in my assessment of the qualities of the person I was falling for. It's never been fun, but to say I "hated" myself for loving or for staring to fall? Wow. Harsh. I can't see how you even could hate yourself for having love in your heart.

Ok, now it gets sticky with the terminology. Now we have to define various types of love. I was thinking about crushes. Isn't it love? If not, why not? I'm not really making a case here. I just think its interesting to think about?

I personally think love is a pretty uncomplicated affair which is basically defined by physical attractions and physical feedback, which in turn is interpreted as something it isn't. Don't forget that we're the story telling simians. We put everything that happens into a story, no matter if its true or not.

Here's an example. When we like somebody and they say something or otherwise communicate with us, our pupils dilate. When we don't like somebody and they communicate with us our pupils retract. Try it on a few people with blue eyes, its really apparent. Two people in love are stuck in a re-enforcing feedback loop of this. If our pupil dilation isn't matched, we will eventually lose interest. This is of-course not conscious. But its simple enough to measure.

But hate was a strong word. "Be annoyed about" was probably better.

Anyway. This begs the question, in what way is a committed long term love affair/marriage different from a fling? Is it the mutual bank account, shared apartment, the commitment or is it something deeper? I personally can't think of anything. The things I still love about my current wife is the exact same things I got stuck for when we first met. I love her more, because the things I suspected of her proved to be true. But I still suspected it when we first met or I wouldn't have married her.

For example, she said she "hates religion with a passion" and my assumption was that she had intellectual interests and liked thinking. This proved to be true. What I love about her isn't that she hates religion but that she thinks. I for one love religion... but not as a follower.

"And seriously, highest values? Ok, sure, you value somebody very highly. But are those the highest values? Really."

Tom, I think you misunderstood me. I said love was a choice made in response to the highest values we hold for ourselves. My love is based upon judgment of myself, what I want, MY highest values - when I find a person that represents that which I hold in esteem and respects me for doing so for myself, my response is the beginning of love. Toss in a little chemistry and now we're on our way to "in love."

Ok, now I get it. Thanks for explaining. I think we agree there. But could you fuck somebody with opinions you judge as stupid? I could and have.

But I only agree now. I didn't used to. This is a fairly new approach for me... Only since my current slave actually.

[i]"I bought my wife 20 long roses yesterday just because I was so much in love. What's so high and noble about that?"[i/]

The high value and the nobility is simply the love you hold and why. The roses are just a small symbol of that. I can't imagine you love your wife as an act of pity toward her, do you? It's not a selfless love, born from a lack of love for yourself and an attempt to compensate for that, is it? If I were to take a stab, I would say you could list off MULTIPLE fine qualities your wife possesses and the fact that you enjoy those qualities and why speak volumes about the type of person you are. Your love for her is a response to your values, is a response to yourself. For someone with low values and little sense of self, sure, love may not be what a lot of people would consider "noble," but it is still a response by that person to what is most prevelant within them, thier highest values regardess of low their high may seem to the rest of the world.

I don't understand what you mean with low values? But other wise I agree.

It's a good thing I consider selfishness a much underappreciated virtue. Thanks for the post, Tom.

No, problem. It's always nice when my opinionated rants are appreciated.

[TomOfSweden]

Please guys. Let's stop using Mother Theresa as a symbol of unconditional love. Her gloria is a bit tainted today. She siphoned off large sums of money that people gave to her to give to the poor, and gave it to the church to promote Catholicism. It was most of it, something like 60% or something, depending on how you count. But sure, she unselfishly spread Catholicism. If we think that's a good thing, then I guess its fair to polish her gloria a bit. But considering the popes stance on combating aids and so on.... it doesn't make Mother Theresa look so good. If you're going to scam people and keep your gloria intact, you might want to make sure the money goes to something positive. Like helping instead of killing people.

edit: but this is no criticism against the discussion as such. I'm totally with you Tessa, that if you believe in heaven it's all about brownie points to get in. Which hardly is a selfless act. The big question is why all Christians don't all follow her example. I mean, its pretty much a no brainer. Eternity is a much longer time than the short stint here. But maybe that's better to take in another thread.

[TomOfSweden]

My point about crushes was that the only difference IMHO about crushes and love is that a crush a love affair that doesn't go anywhere.

[tessa]

Please guys. Let's stop using Mother Theresa as a symbol of unconditional love.

Sorry my example didn't fit your given paradigm. Tom. The mention of anything to do with religion caused you to miss my point entirely, it seems. What I was pointing out had so little to do with Mother Teresa as a symbol and so much more to do with the ideas and questions about how love can be sustained and made real within a lifetime. I might have used a non-traditional approach to the discussion of a couple's love for each other, but my intent was only to address the issues within this thread.

I knew mentioning a religious figure would tend to create a certain mindset with some readers. Using Mother Teresa as an example of living and expressing love (again, which is what the thread is about) had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with thinking about it all with a different perspective. Referencing a religious figure doesn't mean I'm using religion as a standard for love and the expression of such. Not at all. I intentionally used an "outside the box" reference to answer a few questions that were specifically related to J-Go and Amber's situation (which is also what this thread is all about). That you didn't understand the way in which I used the Mother Teresa idea is of no consequence in regards to what I meant to convey to these two people about their situation. (And you're very right in saying that no such religious discussion about it belongs here in their thread.)

What I am hoping is that J-Go and Amber got something out of my nonconformist take on a discussion of living love, as they are processing quite a bit in their lives at the moment it seems. If not, then I failed in my attempt to assist them in my own small way.

(And Tom, since this is not a thread on anything religious (spiritual maybe, but not religious), I sent you a pm about your edit comments.)

All the best to you both in your search for your own happiness, J-Go and Amber, separately and together.

[TomOfSweden]

Tessa, I totally agree that religion isn't a part of this thread. But I think you underestimated the depth of "the edit" answer.

The price we're willing to pay has to do with the pay-off. I know Catholics have a hazy definition of how many brownie points you need for heaven. It seems to shift depending how much power the church has. And now its easier than ever to get in. But Mother Theresa is old. I don't know how the point system was back in the day in Greece, but I doubt getting into heaven was a given.

This still isn't a religious discussion. This is a discussion about the source of the strength of Mother Theresa's love.

We could change the subject and talk about a zoo keeper and his animals. It's the same situation. I doubt they do it for the money, because its a total shit job as far as wages is concerned. I don't know this for a fact, but I'm convinced they love the animals. What's the pay off for the love they show the animals.

Cat-ladies? You know the type. They love cats and will do anything for them.

Anyhoo.... I'm sorry for having the religion discussion thing earlier. I sent you a grovelling letter Tessa. Love you.

[stripedangel]

i love animals and little children. i love ice cream and candy. i love a good steak with a baked potato. i love a good joke, a good time, a good buzz, and a good fuckin.

That is all just an expression to say that you really like or enjoy something...the word love, turned into the ultimate adverb. i hate anchovies...there's no real difference in the useage of the two words here...they both fit the same blank, it just depends on your preference.

i am hopelessly in love with my Master. Totally enamored and enfatuated with him. i am filled with veneration for my Owner, as he is so amazing and wonderful to me. i cherish being his bride and property. i adore his sweet, kind gentlemanly ways, and hold my loyalty to him in high regard. He is so beautiful in mind, body, and soul that i cannot control the obeisance that my own body shows in his presence.

Would that be true LOVE?

[DowntownAmber]

"Anyway. This begs the question, in what way is a committed long term love affair/marriage different from a fling? Is it the mutual bank account, shared apartment, the commitment or is it something deeper? I personally can't think of anything. The things I still love about my current wife is the exact same things I got stuck for when we first met. I love her more, because the things I suspected of her proved to be true. But I still suspected it when we first met or I wouldn't have married her."

I think there is some practicality to the difference between a fling and long term love. I had a "fling" with a man I was friends with, but had no desire to ever marry and certainly didn't fall in love with. We had respect for each other, good chemistry, and had fun together as friends. However, there was enough difference in our day to day lives and goals that we both knew neither of us would be content living the day to day with each other.

On the other hand, like you and your wife, I think the love there is simply a confirmation of the things you suspected, as you said. I think the comfort in confirmation does strengthen the bond and deepen the love. The more intimately you know someone, the more texture there is to the relationship.

"Ok, now I get it. Thanks for explaining. I think we agree there. But could you fuck somebody with opinions you judge as stupid? I could and have."

They could have a couple opinions I deem stupid or silly, but I would still have to like and respect them overall. This could be a personal thing, as I know several people that have no problem ignoring the personality and mind if the physicality of their partner is attractive. I am more attracted to personality initially, then I start evaluation of body and physical attributes. That's not to say I don't ever see people without ever talking to them and think, "hey, that person is attractive/sexy," because that's the order of presentation of which I receive my criteria for evaluation, but you get the larger point.

"I don't understand what you mean with low values? But other wise I agree."

Low value of self, or esteem might be another way to put it. A simple example would be a woman that claims love for a man that abuses her, but still puts a roof over her head and "supports" her. Somewhere in her mind, she believes she must deserve or, at the very least, has to put up with the abuse for the level of love and support she does receive. I would wager to say her value of herself is not especially high, and thus she has chosen a man reflective of that. (And I know this example is dangerous semantic water in which to swim, so I will go ahead and remark right now that, yes, I know of many situations where the abusive aspect of a partner's personality was not revealed until later, and we can get into that if y'all want but it's a bit of a stretch for this thread.)

[TomOfSweden]

Ok, DowntownAmber. Just to clarify. Can you have a deep love with somebody you first didn't have a fling with? In other words, is a marriage just a long drawn out fling?

[DowntownAmber]

Ok, DowntownAmber. Just to clarify. Can you have a deep love with somebody you first didn't have a fling with? In other words, is a marriage just a long drawn out fling?

In answer to the first part, yes, I think that's possible. In my case I have loved prior to any type of "fling," and I'm not talking about love for a pet or a relative or a steak and baked potato.

As for marriage being a long, drawn out fling? I hope there's at least some of the fling element to it... *glances at J* *weg*

[tessa]

Tessa, I totally agree that religion isn't a part of this thread. But I think you underestimated the depth of "the edit" answer.

I know I did. Perspective and all.

The price we're willing to pay has to do with the pay-off.

This is in part why I put you way up there at the top of people I admire most, Tom. Because you get this. You so get the truth of that. Love you more. ~lil' hug~

As for marriage being a long, drawn out fling? I hope there's at least some of the fling element to it... *glances at J* *weg*

Let's hope that element is there, for the sake of love's longevity.