How to find a master?

[Logic1]

well put there Tom.
and as for the "vagina appreciation" class hahahaha


to the OP.
Patience is my best advice for sure. Just like with any relationship they mostly find you and you dont find it if you know what I mean.

[gemmy]

That was going to be my suggestion too. Munches are, imo, superior to clubs and private parties because you do get a chance to see and meet like-minded people who don't have the expectation you are there specifically to jump right into the deep end of the pool.

I strongly disagree here - munches are a whole different lifestyle and not one that at all appeals to me, could just be the ones here but what I've learned is they are all there posturing about what they know. All those old men in leather trying to be Domly is not at all attractive to me personally. The people I know that go to munches here have a different take on BDSM, it's all very public, including their play - they are not into the one on one bond and in fact don't even require a connection with the person they are playing with and that is something I absolutely NEED.

I see some here live for munches and recommend it as a first suggestion to many, but not all munches are created equal and may not be for everyone

[GearJammer]

I think you're wrong.... in a way. The only thing that is different is how brave you need to be to give and acknowledge hints. I mean... nobody is claiming sexual interests are learned are they? I certainly didn't attend "vagina appreciation" classes as a kid, I found an interest anyway. Sex and sex drive are all pure hormones.

I think it's a pretty even spread. All humans find it exciting to break taboos sexually... there's no reason Canada and UK should be any different. Basically, the more conservative the more taboos to break, and therefore it'll be easier to find people with a pronounced and advanced sexual fantasy life. It'll always be much harder to put ones finger on ones fetishes in a society where anything goes. A fetish is just something for your sex fantasies to latch on to.

I also think weather plays a part on how much action is going on. It's much easier being relaxed about your slutiness around people with less clothes on.... and hot and humid. But that doesn't really effect the mentality of the people to begin with.

There is the mentality and then there is the willingness to admit it/reveal it.

I think you are pretty correct about the former. I think she is pretty correct about the latter.

[TomOfSweden]

I strongly disagree here - munches are a whole different lifestyle and not one that at all appeals to me, could just be the ones here but what I've learned is they are all there posturing about what they know. All those old men in leather trying to be Domly is not at all attractive to me personally. The people I know that go to munches here have a different take on BDSM, it's all very public, including their play - they are not into the one on one bond and in fact don't even require a connection with the person they are playing with and that is something I absolutely NEED.

I see some here live for munches and recommend it as a first suggestion to many, but not all munches are created equal and may not be for everyone

I just wanted to say that, that's my and my slave's experience too. I've only met sad desperate people.... but maybe it's a Stockholm specific thing.

[Edm_Trainer]

I just wanted to say that, that's my and my slave's experience too. I've only met sad desperate people.... but maybe it's a Stockholm specific thing.

I'd third that emotion.
I've been to munches in a few different places, and even in a couple of countries. Much like Gemmy mentioned, most there (in my opinion) were there to make a show of it - and, perhaps in some way, themselves...
To each their own, for sure.
But I choose to not make that my own, nor would it be my first suggestion on where to find a Dom or sub.

Just one man's experienced take on things.

[Tojo]

I have no first hand experience of 'munches', & nor do I ever plan to. Not that there's ever likely to be any within a few thousand miles of here!

I've heard from many people though, that clubs, munches & dating sites are 'largely for the people who can't get a date anywhere else. '

For instance, if you go into a bar looking for a long-term fulfilling relationship, you'll probably be disappointed.

IMO, any Dom (or decent guy) who's worthwhile doesn't need to advertise.

Of course on the up side- there's always exceptions, & most of us only need one partner.

[Ozme52]

...but not all munches are created equal

Clearly. I guess I've been lucky to have met a great munch group.

Or maybe those who posture and preen have gone by the wayside in the face of those who still remember munches are not necessarily about hooking up as much as finding people who one can socialize with, without worrying about the "stigma" of being into BDSM.

[Ozme52]

I just wanted to say that, that's my and my slave's experience too. I've only met sad desperate people.... but maybe it's a Stockholm specific thing.

I'd third that emotion.
I've been to munches in a few different places, and even in a couple of countries. Much like Gemmy mentioned, most there (in my opinion) were there to make a show of it - and, perhaps in some way, themselves...
To each their own, for sure.
But I choose to not make that my own, nor would it be my first suggestion on where to find a Dom or sub.

Just one man's experienced take on things.

I have no first hand experience of 'munches', & nor do I ever plan to. Not that there's ever likely to be any within a few thousand miles of here!

I've heard from many people though, that clubs, munches & dating sites are 'largely for the people who can't get a date anywhere else. '

For instance, if you go into a bar looking for a long-term fulfilling relationship, you'll probably be disappointed.

IMO, any Dom (or decent guy) who's worthwhile doesn't need to advertise.

Of course on the up side- there's always exceptions, & most of us only need one partner.

Maybe it's just me.... bringing the best out in the people around me.

[DowntownAmber]

Maybe it's just me.... bringing the best out in the people around me.

Just chiming in to say that's gotta' be the case...

Anyway, back to topic... I've never been to a munch m'self - I managed to get lucky by finding Master, discovering we had chemistry, then allowing that chemistry to take us into BDSM activities quite naturally. However, for all the heat they seem to be getting on this thread, I would think the munches would be (or should be) just a real life version of what we all do right here. Talk, ask questions, network a little and occasionally meet someone. I mean, I'm certainly not here on the forums to find someone or because I can't get a date and I'm not here to advertise, but that doesn't mean I don't like talking to you all.

Give the munches a try, I say. If you don't like the group, don't go back. Simple as that.

[Ozme52]

Again, my experience is that it is going to lunch or dinner with a group of people. If that group is into sports, you can talk about a lot of topics and no one rolls there eyes when someone talks about the local team.

My munch group talks about a lot of things, and yes, a lot of the commentary broaches on bdsm, but not all of it... but when it does, no one gasps and looks at you in horror. You get to be with a group of people who are, at the least, tolerant of bdsm play.

Maybe it's because my munch group isn't open to all comers. They keep the locale private and you have to meet a lead member first. It keeps the predators and hook-up artists away.

[TomOfSweden]

Again, my experience is that it is going to lunch or dinner with a group of people. If that group is into sports, you can talk about a lot of topics and no one rolls there eyes when someone talks about the local team.

My munch group talks about a lot of things, and yes, a lot of the commentary broaches on bdsm, but not all of it... but when it does, no one gasps and looks at you in horror. You get to be with a group of people who are, at the least, tolerant of bdsm play.

Maybe it's because my munch group isn't open to all comers. They keep the locale private and you have to meet a lead member first. It keeps the predators and hook-up artists away.

I'm actually considering starting the same kind of thing in Stockholm. Only through invitation and at our place. We have a big central apartment, and it's a loft, so nobody can look in... We're not really into having sex parties because it has a tendency to get a bit uptight... and discussions aren't as interesting. What we where planning on having, is only inviting slutty and fun people with BDSM interest, and have it grow from there.

I'm getting bored with organising BDSM parties. It's not that they aren't fun.... but it's just such a lot of work!!! It takes days.... and I'm not making any money from it... This is a whole lot more low key, and therefore more fun for me.

[lily27]

I see a lot of different sides to this issue. Living in the same area as gem, I understand her point. I think there are kinky people everywhere, no matter how conservative the general population is (and yes, Alberta is very conservative), but you need a certain amount of population density before you can reach a critical mass.

I don't think that people who aren't Canadian, or who have never travelled to Canada understand just how spread out our population is. We have about 1.5 times the land mass of the US (roughly, off the top of my head... feel free to actually look it up and correct me) and only 1/10th of the population. "Major centres" are relatively few, and extremely far between.... and although we consider the likes of Toronto and Vancouver to be huge metropolises, they pale in comparison to the size of other major cities in the US and around the world.

So when you are trying to seek out people with a specific interest, no matter what that interest may be, (BDSM, model train collecting, juggling enthusiasts) it can be a difficult chore indeed. And when you do find them, they may not be as knowledgeable, or experienced, or even as interested as you would expect. When it comes to a group setting, if you don't have great people leading the charge, the group tends to become sub-standard.

When I was living in a smaller city I considered going to the local munch... however the only group in town met at a restaurant where I had a professional relationship with the owners (who were always there). I really didn't feel like mixing business with kink, so I never went. Using a kink-specific dating site was the only thing that made sense at the time. Of course I could get "dates" but I was really tired of dating vanilla men and was tired of wasting time there. It is of no suprise that when I met Master, we were living three hours apart.

Since we have moved we have thought about going to local munches, but there has always seemed to be something else happening that prevented us from getting there. I would love to have a couple of r/l kinky friends, not for play, but just to understand the nature of our relationship and where we are coming from. It might work out eventually, but it hasn't been a huge priority as of late.

[gemmy]

I see a lot of different sides to this issue. Living in the same area as gem, I understand her point. I think there are kinky people everywhere, no matter how conservative the general population is (and yes, Alberta is very conservative), but you need a certain amount of population density before you can reach a critical mass.

I don't think that people who aren't Canadian, or who have never travelled to Canada understand just how spread out our population is. We have about 1.5 times the land mass of the US (roughly, off the top of my head... feel free to actually look it up and correct me) and only 1/10th of the population. "Major centres" are relatively few, and extremely far between.... and although we consider the likes of Toronto and Vancouver to be huge metropolises, they pale in comparison to the size of other major cities in the US and around the world.

So when you are trying to seek out people with a specific interest, no matter what that interest may be, (BDSM, model train collecting, juggling enthusiasts) it can be a difficult chore indeed. And when you do find them, they may not be as knowledgeable, or experienced, or even as interested as you would expect. When it comes to a group setting, if you don't have great people leading the charge, the group tends to become sub-standard.

When I was living in a smaller city I considered going to the local munch... however the only group in town met at a restaurant where I had a professional relationship with the owners (who were always there). I really didn't feel like mixing business with kink, so I never went. Using a kink-specific dating site was the only thing that made sense at the time. Of course I could get "dates" but I was really tired of dating vanilla men and was tired of wasting time there. It is of no suprise that when I met Master, we were living three hours apart.

Since we have moved we have thought about going to local munches, but there has always seemed to be something else happening that prevented us from getting there. I would love to have a couple of r/l kinky friends, not for play, but just to understand the nature of our relationship and where we are coming from. It might work out eventually, but it hasn't been a huge priority as of late.

Great point lily, thank you!

[Guest011909]

Thank you everyone for all the great responses.

I have been to one munch....the one that is meets closest to where I live. It was entirely made of older overweight people. Now, before anyone slams me...let me say that I don't think people who are overweight are "bad" or less deserving. Actually, I happen to be lucky to have good metabolism...because my eating habits are terrible! Anyway, I'm just not usually attracted to people who are overweight. I also thought it was strange that everyone there was so alike. In any case, I did stay the one night I went, and I had some good conversation. So I was glad I went.

I am not into public play and - I forget who said it - but someone did mention something about people who were at munches being more public about it...or something along those lines. I have kind of conflicting reactions to people who bring the lifestyle out into the public sphere...I think it is very cool that people are evolved enough to accept it in themselves and to be who they are...on the otherhand, it's just not as sexy to me out in the open! It almost seems kind of clinical.

I have been a few times to a bdsm club here in Chicago and I met some very interesting, good people.

My problem with meeting people online has been that so many people are not who they say they are. Also, probably more than that, there are a lot of guys who claim to be into the lifestyle, but who are just looking for some easy, kinky sex. And they're often the same ones who talk about how all the other guys are the ones out there looking for easy, kinky sex!

Anyway, thank you to everyone for your thoughtful responses.

Cheers!

[Tojo]

"Santas" is what my friend on the West Coast calls them- the guys who frequent munches, & those dating sites like collarme etc.

However, there's exceptions to every rule- what's the odds of finding your future wife moving in next door, as mine did??

[Master Bradley]

seek and ye shall find

[Guest011909]

seek and ye shall find

Well...if that's true...then I should find it I suppose...

I am out and about...always searching. Please see my Pet to Be Boarded thread in the personals...

[craven]

I think that in trying too hard to find the perfect partner, dom sub whatever it is possible to miss what can sometimes be right in front of you. I firmly believe that right partners find each other, one does not hunt down and track another.

I also agree with TomOfSweden in that you need to be brave,bite the bullet and get yourself out there, let people know what you are seeking.

My advice would be to relax, enjoy and be yourself and look to hang out in suitable places, visit like sites and chat with like minded people.

We all have our soul mate out there somewhere, be you and you will find each other

[TomOfSweden]

...and even bad relationships are educational. If you don't know how to pick the right guy, pick any guy that has something you fancy and figure out why you don't like him, (or like). Having a fling with someone doesn't mean you'll automatically marry and carry his child.

I know there's Christians here who claim their religion looks down upon sex before marriage or slutting about. To that I say fuck 'em. It's a pure evil dogma with no positive outcome. There is nothing good about that attitude. It will set you up for ignorance regarding what you are looking for in a relationship. There's only one way to find out, and that is to have a taste at all the things that look good and seem appealing at the buffet.

I know a girl who had a relationship with a body builder just because she was curious about his physical limits in bed. Just for fun. She wasn't particularly attracted to huge muscles. It was just a fun experiment. Was it cruel toward the body builder? No it wasn't. He wanted her and he got to have her for a while. Which is better than never having her, isn't it?

Not all relationships are super serious. Even if that is your goal... every relationships will start out like just a fling and grow with time.

[Alex Bragi]

...and even bad relationships are educational. If you don't know how to pick the right guy, pick any guy that has something you fancy and figure out why you don't like him, (or like). Having a fling with someone doesn't mean you'll automatically marry and carry his child.

While I agree even bad relationships are "educational", I'm not convinced your "... pick any guy ..." advice is great, Tom. I mean, we're not talking about picking a chocolate out of a box here, we're talking about people.

I know there's Christians here who claim their religion looks down upon sex before marriage or slutting about. To that I say fuck 'em. It's a pure evil dogma with no positive outcome. There is nothing good about that attitude. It will set you up for ignorance regarding what you are looking for in a relationship. There's only one way to find out, and that is to have a taste at all the things that look good and seem appealing at the buffet.

Well, I'm an agnostic, yet I can still clearly see the benefits of having a limited number of sexual partners. I believe this "evil dogma" does, in fact, have a positive out come and will continue to have until we find a 100% safe and reliable form of contraception and cure for aids and all the other stds. Not to mention the attitudes of more than half of Frenchmen, who when recently questioned, claimed that while they believed in sex before marriage, they still wanted to marry virgins." Or, here in Australia, where of 57,000 men polled by men's magazine FHM, 28 per cent hoped to marry a virgin, while 41 per cent wanted a bride who had five partners or fewer, and just 5 per cent wanted a bride who had slept with more than 15 men. While you're obviously a very modern and broadminded man, Tom, today's women still need to be a little prudent.

I know a girl who had a relationship with a body builder just because she was curious about his physical limits in bed. Just for fun. She wasn't particularly attracted to huge muscles. It was just a fun experiment. Was it cruel toward the body builder? No it wasn't. He wanted her and he got to have her for a while. Which is better than never having her, isn't it?

Was it cruel? Well, that depends, Tom, on exactly how honest she was with him, doesn't it? I mean if she said, straight up front, "Hey, I'm really curious about your huge muscles and physical limits in bed, so let's fuck so I can find out, but please don't go expecting anything else from me..." then that's fair enough. On the other hand if she lead him to believe she was genuinely interested in him with the possibly of having a long term relationship then it wouldn't be so good.

Not all relationships are super serious. Even if that is your goal... every relationships will start out like just a fling and grow with time.

Well, I guess everyone's different.

[TomOfSweden]

While I agree even bad relationships are "educational", I'm not convinced your "... pick any guy ..." advice is great, Tom. I mean, we're not talking about picking a chocolate out of a box here, we're talking about people.

I didn't say any guy. I said "any guy you fancy". Basically picking a guy that could potentially turn out for something good if you gave him a chance. The motivation is to see that if you are looking for defects just because you're afraid of getting that which you most of all want.

Well, I'm an agnostic, yet I can still clearly see the benefits of having a limited number of sexual partners.

This'll be interesting.

I believe this "evil dogma" does, in fact, have a positive out come and will continue to have until we find a 100% safe and reliable form of contraception and cure for aids and all the other stds.

These are all bullshit fears. It's way out of proportion. This is justification of cowardice speaking. It's understandable since getting your ass out on the meat market is cruel at best. But that's just life.

Think of the pay off. Every risk and investment has to be weighed against what you get back. If finding a life partner is important for you in life these are all worthwhile risks to take. If you don't care about love in your life... (which is nobody...) then I guess it isn't. Risk nothing = gain nothing.

A little bit of intelligence can reduce these risks to negligible.

edit: I'm also convinced that's why this feature is in Christianity. If being a coward, (in this way) is held up as a virtue its easy to see how it can more easily be embraced. I'm not saying Jesus said it and was a coward and religious respect reclaimer yada yada yada. But rejection is scary. Formalising the courting and imposing strict rules minimises the risk of rejection once it gets serious.
*end edit*

Not to mention the attitudes of more than half of Frenchmen, who when recently questioned, claimed that while they believed in sex before marriage, they still wanted to marry virgins." Or, here in Australia, where of 57,000 men polled by men's magazine FHM, 28 per cent hoped to marry a virgin, while 41 per cent wanted a bride who had five partners or fewer, and just 5 per cent wanted a bride who had slept with more than 15 men. While you're obviously a very modern and broadminded man, Tom, today's women still need to be a little prudent.

Hardly a problem, is it? Your two options are either to avoid men like it, because you know they'll have an unrealistic view of women and sex. Or lie about it. He's an idiot and a childish buffoon so you know you can fool him to believe anything as long as you do the right steps.

edit: FHM.... Now I get it. I've seen it. It's a girly magazine that targets men who are about as emotionally mature as a piece of furniture... ...sorry... you were saying?

edit2: hmm....boys are not capable of any kind of long term commitment. It's kind of what being a boy is all about. It's a phase for fooling about in. Why would you care about what kind of women these men are attracted to for marriage? It's not like its likely to last is it?

Was it cruel? Well, that depends, Tom, on exactly how honest she was with him, doesn't it? I mean if she said, straight up front, "Hey, I'm really curious about your huge muscles and physical limits in bed, so let's fuck so I can find out, but please don't go expecting anything else from me..." then that's fair enough. On the other hand if she lead him to believe she was genuinely interested in him with the possibly of having a long term relationship then it wouldn't be so good.

Nobody ever listens to what the other person says about these things. If you are looking for a long term relationship, that's the cues you'll listen for. If not, then you will be deaf to them. You know and I know that we never know what we're likely to feel about somebody in five years time. "Forever" in love speak, only means a few years. If you promise somebody you'll love them more than that... then you're lying. It's a question of maturity and knowing when its romantic bullshit. Nothing wrong with romance. I tell my slave I'll love her forever all the time. And that's certainly how it feels in my heart at the moment.

[gemmy]

I'm completely in agreement with Tom on this one and have had the same discussion (a few years ago) with my daughter. Basically we agreed she would be stupid to be a virgin when she got married. It's not realistic, nor is it emotionally healthy to expect that you can have only one partner from beginning to end and expect it to be everything. (Yes I'm aware that a very select few couples enjoy this status but it's more the exception than the rule).

No, I'm not advising my daughter to be whore, but to not limit her options by someone (christians) else's rule. Her virginity is hers and hers alone, it's only she who can decide what to do with it and that decision should be based on how she feels, not how society says she should feel.

And all those men surveyed are idiots! Why is it still socially acceptable for men to whore around before marriage but still expect they deserve a virgin for a wife? All those women they've been sleeping with were virgins at some point as well. It's an archaic notion and one that is entirely bs. Women think they've come so far over time with equal rights and blah blah bullshit, they are only kidding themselves lol

[Alex Bragi]

Having begun typing up a reply to this thread several times, I've decided to let it go.

Tom, you may disagree with my opinions, and that's your prerogative, however, they are just that; not "bullshit fears" that are "way out of proportion", or "justification of cowardice speaking", but simply my views as a free thinking woman.

And, gem, no, I'm not advocating that women should remain virgins until they're married or limit their options by Christian rules either--hell no.

[TomOfSweden]

Having begun typing up a reply to this thread several times, I've decided to let it go.

Tom, you may disagree with my opinions, and that's your prerogative, however, they are just that; not "bullshit fears" that are "way out of proportion", or "justification of cowardice speaking", but simply my views as a free thinking woman.

Bad form. "my views as a free thinking woman". So basically, if I don't accept this line of argumentation I'm not only against freedom, but also against women? It's implied. It's so lame sneaking that in there. That's Bono argumentation.

Opinions without arguments to back them up are worthless. It's like saying "its true, because I've got faith its true". How is this not me being right and you not being woman enough to admit it?

I don't mind you saying that you think I'm rude and therefore don't want to talk to me. I am. I can't be bothered to wrap up my arguments in pretty packages. It's something I'm bad at which I'm working on. I'll get better. I promise. ....but you didn't. You used the fact that you think I'm rude as a weapon in this argument to kill whatever retort I might have had. Lame.

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/3716/awesomeomo0.gif

[Alex Bragi]

Bad form. "my views as a free thinking woman". So basically, if I don't accept this line of argumentation I'm not only against freedom, but also against women? It's implied. It's so lame sneaking that in there. That's Bono argumentation.

No, Tom. "Free thinking woman" Freethinker--a person who forms their opinions and idea independently of authority (in my case my Christian upbringing), and woman... well, do I really need to explain? Therefor, I believe it's fair and reasonable for me to call myself a "freethinking woman", certainly as far as this topic is concerned.

Opinions without arguments to back them up are worthless. It's like saying "its true, because I've got faith its true". How is this not me being right and you not being woman enough to admit it?

I don't believe there is a right or wrong here, only opinions, as ultimately each of us must choose how we live and love. And, I will never be goaded into revealing more about myself and/or my views than I'm comfortable with here--never.

I don't mind you saying that you think I'm rude and therefore don't want to talk to me. I am. I can't be bothered to wrap up my arguments in pretty packages. It's something I'm bad at which I'm working on. I'll get better. I promise. ....but you didn't. You used the fact that you think I'm rude as a weapon in this argument to kill whatever retort I might have had. Lame.

I did not say you were "rude", Tom. And if I insinuated it, I did so by quoting your words.

Nor did I say I wouldn't want to talk to you. Of course, I will continue to talk to you, although I will be a little wary of you and paraphrasing in future.

Believe me, it takes a whole lot more than this to make me angry, and angry enough to ignore you.

[TomOfSweden]

I don't believe there is a right or wrong here, only opinions, as ultimately each of us must choose how we live and love. And, I will never be goaded into revealing more about myself and/or my views than I'm comfortable with here--never.

That's fair. I apologise for drawing the wrong conclusion. ...I do think you're awesome. You know that

[claire]

Well, I'm an agnostic, yet I can still clearly see the benefits of having a limited number of sexual partners. I believe this "evil dogma" does, in fact, have a positive out come and will continue to have until we find a 100% safe and reliable form of contraception and cure for aids and all the other stds.... While you're obviously a very modern and broadminded man, Tom, today's women still need to be a little prudent.

I in general agree with Tom about Christian religious dogma and sex. Yes the risks of STDs are probably overstated if you take precautions, but most studies show that most people don't and that is particularly true for young people.

However, to my way of thinking the risk of unwanted pregnancy is the greatest risk and one that men just don't have to deal with. The worst that will happen to a guy is he has to take responsibility and pay 18 years of child support. Yes, again, both people should take precautions, but as Alex points out none of these methods are 100% safe and reliable. Yes, with precautions the risks are minimized and there is always the abortion option. But, a woman should never totally ignore those risks. Women can and still do die in child birth, rare though it may be. Men don't always take responsibilities as they should. Abortion has its own risks, both physical, emotional and some would say spiritual. Being a parent is a major life changing event. Doh! Being a single parent even more so. And for those of you men who are honorable enough to take care of your responsibilities, where is the guarantee that she will let you. Maybe you were just a sperm source for her and she may accept your child in her life, but not you.

Most of us probably think we are a little too old for that lecture, but a reminder never hurts.

Again, this is not a reason to avoid experiencing life, love and sex. Whether you wait until you marry or not, you are still experimenting with a relationship when you have sex. I agree with Tom, part of finding what you need, is trying it out and learning what does and doesn't work for you. But, I agree with Alex, women still need to be more prudent than men, because they are taking the greater risk.

I was debating about putting in this plug. WTH Now guys if you would just go after us older women, you wouldn't have to worry about the pregnancy risk.

[TomOfSweden]

Claire, thank you. I think you summed up each case succinctly. It's simply a matter of risk/benefit analysis.

I personally think herpes or risking AIDS is a price worth paying if it avoids the risk of wasting my entire life with a woman I'm not a good match with. I mean, what's the difference between dying from AIDS or never have been alive? Naturally I'm not in a position to judge whether abortion is worth it or not.

[gemmy]

I was debating about putting in this plug. WTH Now guys if you would just go after us older women, you wouldn't have to worry about the pregnancy risk

Here! Here! hehe

[Ozme52]

Now guys if you would just go after us older women, you wouldn't have to worry about the pregnancy risk.

Here! Here! hehe

Or one can just "unload" the gun...