Watch Christopher Hitchens Get Waterboarded

[Virulent]

The Video

You may have read by now the official lie about this treatment, which is that it "simulates" the feeling of drowning. This is not the case. You feel that you are drowning because you are drowning--or, rather, being drowned, albeit slowly and under controlled conditions and at the mercy (or otherwise) of those who are applying the pressure. The "board" is the instrument, not the method. You are not being boarded. You are being watered. This was very rapidly brought home to me when, on top of the hood, which still admitted a few flashes of random and worrying strobe light to my vision, three layers of enveloping towel were added. In this pregnant darkness, head downward, I waited for a while until I abruptly felt a slow cascade of water going up my nose. Determined to resist if only for the honor of my navy ancestors who had so often been in peril on the sea, I held my breath for a while and then had to exhale and--as you might expect--inhale in turn. The inhalation brought the damp cloths tight against my nostrils, as if a huge, wet paw had been suddenly and annihilatingly clamped over my face. Unable to determine whether I was breathing in or out, and flooded more with sheer panic than with mere water, I triggered the pre-arranged signal and felt the unbelievable relief of being pulled upright and having the soaking and stifling layers pulled off me. I find I don't want to tell you how little time I lasted.

I apply the Abraham Lincoln test for moral casuistry: "If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong." Well, then, if waterboarding does not constitute torture, then there is no such thing as torture.

For anyone who hasn't seen a video of authentic torture, I think you'll find it fascinating how much it mirrors a BDSM experience.

I need to find someone to waterboard me; I want to see if I can beat Hitchens' time now.

[Alex Bragi]

Interesting, however, while this experiment might certainly simulate some forms of bdsm games, the reality and the terrible truth is that water-boarding was not created for thrill seeing kinksters.

[rora]

You are right Alex, and if it saves the life of one of thr troops, then I am for it.

[Alex Bragi]

You are right Alex, and if it saves the life of one of thr troops, then I am for it.

Well, I think whether or not it's justifiable is a matter of opinion. I'm not going to reiterate my thoughts on this since they're already well documented on this forum. You may read mine and a few others, and possibly want to add your own here.

[TomOfSweden]

It was a long sequence setting it up, but the part where the actual waterboarding was done I thought was too quick to get a sense of. If he'd been naked it would have been much more educational. I couldn't read stress in his body other than those metal things dropping.

[Logic1]

You are right Alex, and if it saves the life of one of thr troops, then I am for it.

to turn that statement completely around then. Would you condone it done to YOU if it would save another country´s troops at war with the US.?? Remember here that you have no idea if you are going to survive it or not.

[rora]

We were attacked in our homeland on 9-11. People seem to forget that. It wasn't something I asked for, nor was this war something I asked for. No one asked my opinion, before either event.

War is not fun. It is not pleasant. It is not a picnic. How do you begin to fight someone who would strap a suicide vest on a child? What kind of mentality is that? What kind of cowards hide in a Mosque, and fire on troops when they know they won't shoot back? Or hide in a school full of children...or a hospital? Nothing seems to be beneath them.

I lived thru the Nam era. My brother and several good friends were . We lost several friends. Family friends...one was in the Bataan Death March. My Dad fought in WWII. His father was a soldier before him. My list of family soldiers goes on and on...including my hubby and a son.

War is horrible. I KNOW this.

I am not a debater. I never learned the 'art'. To me it is like fighting or arguing, and I hate that. I always have.

All I can say is...if water boarding saves lives, then I am for it.

God Bless America and our troops.

Have a Happy and safe 4th everyone.

This ole hide (as my cuz lovingly calls me) is off to pedal her ass. (that's what my hubby calls riding my bike).

[Logic1]

I dont think anybody can forget those attacks on US soil. I also remember terrorist attacks in the UK and Spain and many other countries. The US one was the worst one as of yet and we all wish it never happened and yet terrorist attacks happens all over the planet due to some fanatics that doesnt have the same opinion as other people does.
I understand fully with it being the 4th of July this not being the best of days to tell you that but the question remains.
Would it be okay if waterboarding was done by some other state against US troops to gain info about some american attack to save that countrys soldiers and I truely hope your answer is yes, cause any other answer would be...
Personally I cant tolerate state sponsored or any other form of torture at all, no matter what.

Happy 4th guys and hopefully it is a great one

[Warbaby1943]

WOW he didn't last long.

[Snark]

Would I like to be waterboarded if it meant some other country's troops were saved? No. Then again I wouldn't like to have my head sawed off with a dull knife; which our opponents seem to take great glee in. We protest some actions that are hardly uncomfortable as well as some that are deliberately cruel. But they do horrific things and their supporters cheer them on and dance in the streets. Waterboarding is cruel. It is also survivable. Slow beheading is many orders of magnitude worse...and not just supported by "opinion" but by "religious" mandate. It's also not survivable. Sweden is now about 5% muslim. By now you probably have enclaves (ghettos) where the occupants are solely muslim and either are practicing sharia law to the exclusion of national law or are protesting for the right to do so. I suspect that halal food is available and there is insistence that halal "rights" are being being demanded. Let us know when they impose the jizya or "infidel tax". Of course, by then you won't have access to this forum unless you have moved to another country.

the Snark

[Logic1]

Not sure where you got the dull knife part from Skark, but nobody wants that now do they?

Sweden 5% Muslim, well I hardly think that number is correct since the 2nd biggest immigrant group in Sweden is Finns who are about 2% of the population but even if that were to be true. Would it matter?
Yes, We got enclaves in some of the bigger cities with mostly immigrants and some of them are of pretty bad reputation for sure but so has any other country.
Yes you could buy some form of halal meat here in Sweden but it is not exactly done in the "correct" halal way because our laws prohibits that.
Would the US allow those jizya or infidel tax to be put on US citizens and if so, why. And why would Sweden do that? There is no reason for it whatsoever.
plus I´d like to add that Muslims as a whole arent worse people than those of any other religion. Those who cause problems are fundamentalists of any religion no matter what religion that is although I can hardly see any fundamentalist Buddhist causing a problem for any other religion .

[rora]

Logic,

In answer to Your question...

Sorry to disappoint You, but my answer would have to be no. I AM after all an American. I wouldn't want it done to our troops. I want them to win. "cause any other answer would be... " What would it be? I am answering You honestly. Answer me, please.


I know exactly where Snark got the dull knife from. I saw it too. I watched the whole thing. It sickened me.

[John56{vg}]

This is one thing I never get from The conservative stance that torture is ok if it is done to people that are different from us. When the horrible events of 9/11 happened one of things that Bin Laden and Al Qaeda wanted was to change the way the U.S. dealt in the world. They succeeded if they scared us.

One of the most un-American things I think of is torture. MY Father and Grandfather and Uncles and Cousins fought to make sure we stayed FREE and AMERICAN.

Bush and the Republican Party has served the terrorists by increasing that fear and doing VERY unAmerican things. We are LESS free than we have been in years. Habeas Corpus, until re-supplied by the Supreme Court (Which the Republicans STILL are against), was completely taken away.

My relatives didn't fight for this country to become a land that tortures and hates. But Bush has made it that way.

SO why is Bush FOR the terrorists agenda. BE AFRAID and let's take away those things that people around the world have loved about us.

Torture does not HELP our troops, it puts them more at risk, Torture does NOT work, you cannot trust the info you get from it. THESE are facts. But the people that want to scare us into voting for them deny these facts.

[cadence]

The Video



For anyone who hasn't seen a video of authentic torture, I think you'll find it fascinating how much it mirrors a BDSM experience.

I need to find someone to waterboard me; I want to see if I can beat Hitchens' time now.

Honestly I think Hitchen's was a bit overdramatic with the whole experience, he knew what was coming, and anticipated it at first. But then again try pouring water up your nose, you'll stop rather rapidly.

As I said before, I do know of a few people who have been waterboarded in a BDSM context, for whatever it's worth, if you enjoy puking and gagging, then it's for you.

[Kevin100]

The sad truth is: torturing suspects is more likely to cause the death of our troops rather than save their lives.
Kevin 100

[Logic1]

Logic,

In answer to Your question...

Sorry to disappoint You, but my answer would have to be no. I AM after all an American. I wouldn't want it done to our troops. I want them to win. "cause any other answer would be... " What would it be? I am answering You honestly. Answer me, please.


I know exactly where Snark got the dull knife from. I saw it too. I watched the whole thing. It sickened me.

So you are basically saying that torture is okay as long as it is done by the American government and if somebody else did it it would be horrible and repugnant and he would stand trial for crimes against the Geneva commity(sp). That is hypocricy if I ever saw it.

Personally I cant find anything less american than torture either just like John said and that saying NO to state sponsored torture wont make you any less patriotic and for me it would actually make you more patriotic cause that just isnt the american way. The land of equal liberties and freedoms just dont go around torturing people.

Wanting your troops to win is a given yes naturally but at what cost? Winning by loosing other peoples faith in the US as a fair and just country? I honestly dont think that is a price anybody wants it´s country to pay and that is most likely the price it will cost.
Torture just shouldn´t be happening anywhere on this planet and especially not in the western part of the world.

[Snark]

Logic 1

Yes, it would matter. As countries become more mulsim they will insist upon more control until they control the whole country. Not all countries have sharia controlled enclaves, but the ones with larger muslim populations do. For those who haven't studied the q'uran I invite them to. Yes, only 5% (out of 1 billion that's about 50 million) are actively trying to take over the world. But the other 95% won't - and theologically CAN'T - make any objection and continues to fund the 5%. They are commanded to take over the world by ANY means neccessary. If you think that having a democratic government will protect you, once the population reaches 51% the country is doomed. A democracy is two wolves and a sheep discussing what's for lunch.
Is waterboarding any more dispicable than burning down a schoolhouse full of children? The insurgents fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, ****lia, and the rest of them are doing so not because the hate America, or that they are made at George Bush. They do it because their religious beliefs command it. They are fighting to install anoter caliphate, this time over the entire world, not just north Africa nd the middle east.

[rora]

torture just shouldn't be happening anywhere on this planet....I agree with that 100% but I also know that you can't stop it. I don't care what you do, or what anyone else does...how many laws you pass against it...it IS going to happen. I am old enough to realize that.

"My relatives didn't fight for this country to become a land that tortures and hates. But Bush has made it that way." Well, neither did mine. But I don't think they planned on getting beheaded or tortured, either.

We don't live in a perfect world. If we did there would be peace.

Don't worry. No one in authority is going to ask my opinion or advice. *smiles*

I am out of here, this is TOO much like fighting for me

have a great day.

[Logic1]

Snark, to me that just sounds like paranoia. Being that scared of muslims is just not healthy. I know a few people who happens to be muslim and they sure are nice enough people. Religion per say doesnt make you violent or hostile or prone to terrorism. Fanatism and not enough chances and education and other factors like those are though.

rora if nobody speaks up then ofcourse torture will continue and if the people of one country knows that their government is doing this and keep voting for the people in power then the people of that country are infact sponsoring torture.
That sure isnt the U.S to me, but if you say it is, then perhaps I should rethink my standpoint of what the "american way" really is.
No rora, the people in authority isnt gonna ask you but you should ask them.. they after all are answering to you(the people) and not the other way around. That is what we have a democracy for.
No, we dont have a perfect world, we all know that but if we work together and people of every origin work together then we CAN make a difference.

I sure arent fighting you rora, and I hope you dont feel that. I just think that discussions with other people is a place to learn things. *hug*

[AdrianaAurora]

On topic, I am really trying to be non judgmental, but I have to say that what you are asking I find disturbing and scary.

But this thread has got sidetracked in a rather pointless debate - weather water boarding is justified or not? If it weren't so pathetic and sad, it would be freaking hilarious. Water boarding doesn't work, and this fact renders all debate, justified or not, pointless. But then when was the last time Bushie zealots cared for logic, reason, intelligence, proof, or pretty much anything America stands for?

We were attacked in our homeland on 9-11. People seem to forget that. It wasn't something I asked for, nor was this war something I asked for. No one asked my opinion, before either event.

War is not fun. It is not pleasant. It is not a picnic. How do you begin to fight someone who would strap a suicide vest on a child? What kind of mentality is that? What kind of cowards hide in a Mosque, and fire on troops when they know they won't shoot back? Or hide in a school full of children...or a hospital? Nothing seems to be beneath them.

I agree, but you discard few very important facts. 1) American careless and arrogant foreign policy enabled this to happen;
2) That policy, at the detriment of American people, made some very (in)competent and evil people, who support or are part of US government very rich;
And my favorite, 3) people tortured by American soldiers are innocent. People they water board have no connection with September 11.
99.99% of those water boarded had no connection to any terrorist activity. No useful information has been gained by it. And Bush isnt and never was a competent politician. Dont play a victim, World offered their sympathy and support after 9/11 and what did US do? They attacked a country who had nothing to do with it.

And here is the disconnect and utter irony, Patriot Act, pro-war trigger-happy supporters have more in common with core values of Islamic fundamentalist then with those of the Founding Fathers.

How do you fight these people? You start by not becoming like them.

Rather let the crime of the guilty go unpunished than condemn the innocent. Justinian I, Law Code, A.D. 535

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security.
Benjamin Franklin

[Snark]

Logic

Paranoid? Hardly. Muslims ruled all of north Africa for over 600 years and Spain for several hundred as well. It wasn't until Charles "The Hammer" Martell defeated them that Europe was saved. The calipate ruled until Mustapha Attaturk (founder of Turkey) helped to bring down the Byzantine Empire, then the tide turned. History is a bitch for those who don't study it. Yes, there are many nice, friendly, peaceable mulims. That's not the point. Muslim theocracy forbids negotiation unless they are at a disadvantage. Compassion is regarded as weakness - who contributed more to the tsunami victims - muslims or non-muslims (infidels.) Religion per se doesn't make one dangerous...but if the religion teaches it, it can. The gang that conducted 911 weren't poor, deprived people. Neither were the ones who blew up the London underground. These are well educated, well financed supporters of a very dangerous group of individuals who happen to have a tremendous amount of wealth. The most dangerous weapon of mass distruction is unlimited wealth under the control of a mad man. The dangerous issue is that the group happens to number in the multiple of millions.

[John56{vg}]

Logic

The most dangerous weapon of mass distruction is unlimited wealth under the control of a mad man. The dangerous issue is that the group happens to number in the multiple of millions.

Actually (and I would add unlimited wealth AND POWER to the quote), this sounds like Bush and crew. He is using the office of the Presidency to attempt to build a dictatorship. And he has been a weapon of mass destruction to this nation.

But Snark your post brings up another thing that I find despicable about the way conservatives and fundamentalists have USED the events on 9/11. The effort to paint ALL members of a particular religion with the terrorist brush.

It is an opinion lacking in any sort of REAL back-up. And YES, the fundamentalists in this country start to look a lot like the fundamentalists in other countries.
****

Adriana, Thank you for a well-thought out and lucid post.

[Logic1]

Logic

Paranoid? Hardly. Muslims ruled all of north Africa for over 600 years and Spain for several hundred as well. It wasn't until Charles "The Hammer" Martell defeated them that Europe was saved. The calipate ruled until Mustapha Attaturk (founder of Turkey) helped to bring down the Byzantine Empire, then the tide turned. History is a bitch for those who don't study it. Yes, there are many nice, friendly, peaceable mulims. That's not the point. Muslim theocracy forbids negotiation unless they are at a disadvantage. Compassion is regarded as weakness - who contributed more to the tsunami victims - muslims or non-muslims (infidels.) Religion per se doesn't make one dangerous...but if the religion teaches it, it can. The gang that conducted 911 weren't poor, deprived people. Neither were the ones who blew up the London underground. These are well educated, well financed supporters of a very dangerous group of individuals who happen to have a tremendous amount of wealth. The most dangerous weapon of mass distruction is unlimited wealth under the control of a mad man. The dangerous issue is that the group happens to number in the multiple of millions.

There have always been different rulers over different territories. Before the immigrants came to the americas the Indians ruled the land. Sweden was a superpower and ruled over Sweden, Finland, Norway the Baltic states and half of todays Germany and Poland. Not even sure what that has to do with much when it comes to today. Sure the muslims influenced the south of Spain and you can still see the remains of that in the old buildings and I am sure you can see more signs if you look closely but you have to remind yourself that that was a very long time ago.
Islam doesnt teach that they should invade the rest of the world and any muslim would tell you that if you dared to actually ask my friend.
You can however find fanatics in most religions including the christian faith.
Do you honestly believe that there are multiple millions of fanatic muslims(not even mentioning that they have to be of unlimited wealth? That is just paranoia and crazy talk imho.
I think you need to get out more and perhaps start to read some non biased newspapers or internet news that actually can tell you about the world. and no FOX news isnt that just to name one example.

(sorry for the delay in my reply. Havent had time to actually write something longer than a few lines for the past two days).

[claire]

For a non-corporate media slant to the news - yes read liberal. Even if that is a dirty word to you, it is good to hear the opposite perspective to get a broader view of the issues.

I highly recommend www.democracynow.org

[John56{vg}]

I am a journalist, an old-style journalist, which means I remain objective in my stories. The media in this country has become decidedly more corporate and, thus, more conservative in the 34 years since good journalism toppled a corrupt President (Nixon).

That is when conservative forces and yes, The Republican party started the whole "Liberal Media Bias" Hoax. The following is a list of English Language, honest and objective News Organizations that might help some see the REAL news in the U.S. It is by no means complete.

Television News:

BBC News -- Probably the least biased News Org. In Britain, they are still following the tenets of good objective Journalism. You will get the facts from the BBC, MOST of the the time.

NPR -- National Public Radio is beholden to no corporation or special interest, the best News Organization in the Country.

The Network News has become decidedly bias toward corporate interests. I would say the best of the three is NBC -- Brian Williams seems to WANT to get it right, but there are still a lot of important stories going uncovered.

Fox News is NOT NEWS. It is fiction, hyperbole and COnservative Partisanship. The "facts" are mostly made up. Murdoch and especially Ailes makes sure FOX is totally a flack for the government currently, Republicans and Neo-cons especially. ANY program on FOX is slanted, biased and probably fiction. Hannity and O'Reilly are the worst.

Most Newspapers in the country have a bias, but Newspapers are still one of the best sources for News, as long as you are not reading just USA Today or The New York Post or NOW the Wall Street Journal. Murdoch has made the once venerable Financial Newspaper a conservative Rag.

I have seen bias in the headlines and stories from Associated Press and UP. Reuters is doing a good job though.

Radio News is a joke mainly, UNLESS you are listening to NPR or the BBC.

Now if you are getting ALL your news from FOX or the 700 club or O'Reilly, you are NOT getting facts, you are hearing "news" made to keep you scared or angry. There are little facts on these programs.

[AdrianaAurora]

This is an extract from an email that a Muslim friend had sent me regarding a similar debate:

"One of the hadis in Quran says that you are not a true Muslim if your neighbour does not feel safe. No religion teaches a man to be bad:"

[John56{vg}]

Adriana, another valuable post, thanks.

A story that I covered for the Southern California neighborhood that I work for. A Christmas Tree stood in the local park and the Jewish members of the community, with overwhelming community support, put up a large Menorah as well.

One night some idiots cut down the metal menorah and vandalized it. The story received major play in the local and major media. The Hannukah event that year had more attendees that ever before.

Everybody was pleased that such a hateful event spawned such support. The terrible act backfired on the idiots who perpetuated it.

Anyway, While I was interviewing people I ran across a Muslim couple and their family and interviewed them.

They were there they said to express that hate has no place in ANY religion. And they wanted to express their support for their neighborhood and neighbors.

I have traveled a lot. We have people from all over the world on this board. One thing you realize pretty quickly that people are the same ALL over the world. Everybody just wants to be allowed to live and love and be as happy as they can be.

But there are people who crave power that want to incite people to hate. These fanatics, whether they are the Christian fundamentalists that want you to hate gays and muslims or the Muslims that want to convince troubled young Muslims to kill themselves, want power and money on the backs of others.

[denuseri]

as for the water boarding,, we allready had a mile long thread on that topic in this section of the forums i dont mind thread drift myself paticularly when the original topic is covering well trod ground

as for journalisim: as they will teach you in any journalisim class ...all news period, regardless of source is ussually "tainted" by the people that write it if in no other way than on a subconsious level,,, even the "christian science monitor" whose reputation throughout its history in jouralisim is based on impartiality has news stories that present one sided views

the liberal biasised media , tree hugger left wing so******t comunist contention of the conservative side of politics is no less false than the liberal contention that conservatives are all big business right wing religious fanatics out to shoot everyone

the fact is that all political agendas are indeed fostered by the media as they report the news inadvertantly in some cases and directly in others

as for religion and politics
my mother was a lebanonese jew my father a lutheran

i am of the bahai faith, its considered an off shoot of islam, ive studied many religions and i havent found one yet whose rehtoric condons the violence and hate perpetrated in thier names against those that do not share the same faith

politicians throughout all known human history have allways used religion to thier own personal advantage just like they have used fear and any other manipulation tactic to sway we the massess to do thier bidding

the media (and randolf herst is a good example of bad media) alltough supposably expousing high standards ,
has its own agenda as well, often fixating on whatever gets them the most ratings or subscribers,(or if state controlled on whatever propoganda the state wants) which sometimes coincides and sometimes opposes individual politicians and or thier parties despite the best efforts of a handful of honest people that want to provide a truely impartial truth to the people

in effect the sophists that socrates claimed to not be a member of were in some ways right, at least when it came to observations of human behavior

like most people i dont follow my own political parties dogma to the core, i pick and choose my views based on my own feeling about the issues, for instance, i am a registered republican, and alltough an avid fan of my 2nd amendment rights: i am pro abortion and pro gay rights including gay marrige, I also think the war in iraq is wrong, but i see alot of things wrong with the other parties practice of its dogma so i stay where i am to have a vote in the primaries as opposed to going libertarian or something

unfortunately the media is used as much as it uses, like some kind of reactionary format, where it manipulates opinion as much as opinion manipulates it, which is why most people have no real idea what any individual politician is really about until they are actually in office

actions allways speak louder than words

[Virulent]

i am pro abortion

Me too; I hope "they" make it mandatory.

I don't have much affinity for politics personally. In America in particular, citizens have the luxury of choosing between any of the candidates that the capitalist politburo decides to field. Now available in multiple hues!

There is a reason why Ann Coulter and Dianne Feinstein are so hilarious - because they're in the entertainment business.

By the way John - both of your favorite news outlets are owned by governments and paid for by compulsory taxation?

[John56{vg}]

Me too; I hope "they" make it mandatory.

By the way John - both of your favorite news outlets are owned by governments and paid for by compulsory taxation?

The BBC IS owned by the government of the U.K. That does not change the fact that its reporting is objective and that its news deals in the truth. And paid for with taxes, what is inherently wrong with that?

And you talk about "favorite" news outlets. They ARE my favorite, yes, but because they are the most objective, deal in facts and tell the whole story. When THAT is the case, who cares who owns them or how they are funded?