BDSM And Feminism: Intertwined? How So?

[denuseri]

The real fact is:

Wemon have made choices throughout human history long long long before the advent of the so called "feminist" movement.

We didn't need Feminism to make any desicions for us.

We as women have had a very great impact on culture and society ever since before the proverbial apple was plucked from the metaphoric tree.

The argument that only three women have made choices prior to the feminist movement that came along and would have us make ourselves into something we are not by putting us all into one mold, has no basis in fact.

ALL women made and make choices all of the time, everyday we all live or have lived.
Even the slave, or kajira or submissive has choices (made all the more apparent as a microclasm of power exchange), and being a submissive should in and itself show you that much at least.

We have the unique viewpoint of seeing the whole of the hierarchy of dominion that exists in nature (which we are a part of as much as any other living being).

We have through out our existance beguiled, alured and even rarely forced our way into every avenue of power in every way possible, just fine without "feminism" or it's unnatural dogma.

It is in fact the feminists; with thier not so cleverly hidden agenda of emasculation, that would have us belive we would be channelled into one mold without choice.

~ All the while trying to force feed us propaganda to make us fit into the mold of thier design despite all our differing aspirations, abilities, and situations.'


"There is a difference' laughed Hassan, 'between the pride of a free woman and the pride of the slave girl. The pride of a free woman is the pride of a woman who feels herself to be the equal of a man.
The pride of the slave girl is the pride of the girl who knows that no other woman is the equal of herself."

Tribesmen of Gor, page 333

[damyanti]

[I]The argument that only three women have made choices prior to the feminist movement that came along and would have us make ourselves into something we are not by putting us all into one mold, has no basis in fact.

ALL women made and make choices all of the time, everyday we all live or have lived.

So all women always had the right to a political vote? And those few, who managed to rise above, got there without a struggle, accepted easily as a breeze...and you dont think their life choices constitute feminist struggle?

Laws where women were considered owned and a property (by birth) and had no personal choice, and where ultimatively always someone else had the final say as to their life? My history professors must have made them up?

A woman who is denied the promotion, despite the fact her credentials are indisputably higher than that of her junior male colleague who got promoted instead of her...because he is more suited to the role because he can go to places she cant...like football games, drinking bear, strip clubs and she soon wont be able to put in that many late nights because she is nearing her child bearing time. That to you is right, her place?

A husband has a right to hit and rape his wife? And laws which guarantee him that weren't in place until recently?

I could go on and on and you talk to me about facts.

Yes, in a few places of the world some things went to far and got skewed...but thats because one form extremism only gives birth to another.

[orchidsoul]

I've been reading and re-reading this thread trying to figure out how to properly express myself and Seri's comment just helped me... thank you.

[B][I]The real fact is:

Wemon have made choices throughout human history long long long before the advent of the so called "feminist" movement.

That's the thing- there's more than one feminist movement. It's a 'movement' that has been occurring since the 1700's, though around the mid 1800's began being more vocal in numbers, particularly beginning with the right to vote.

And it wasn't until the 1920 elections that we were allowed to vote for a President. Prior to that, as early as the mid 1700's (I think it was that early), there are a few instances granting women the right to vote in local elections. But often there were restrictions- married women technically owned nothing as it was their husbands, therefore were disqualified, leaving unmarried and widowed women allowed. The rules were not the same in each state either.

The feminist movement encompasses many arenas of equality and choice. From the right to vote, to education, to property rights, to birth control, to reproductive rights, to divorce, to domestic violence, to work force, to equal pay and much more. There literally was a time a woman could not go to school, or could not leave a man that was beating her let alone have the right to not be beaten.

So yes, women have been voicing their choices for many many moons... but it's taken years for various choices to be allowed

I've also had many issues with 'feminists' along the way. In college I took a Philosophy of Feminism course and tore apart in discussions half the books we read. I don't remember who, I think Friednan or Dworkin, but one of them went as far to say women should not get a physical by a male physician and condemn any woman who did. To me, this was precisely what 'we' were supposedly fighting for and why go forth and eliminate a gender?

I completely agree with Seri in the comparison of men and women. We have two different biological make-ups and there's no comparison. It's like apples and oranges.

Do I think that if I'm doing the same job as a man I should be paid the same? Absolutely. Do I think just because I'm a woman I have the right to do *any* job a man can? No- because I'm not physically capable of doing some of their jobs. I don't think anyone deserves a job based solely on gender. Don't get me wrong- if I'm strong enough I shouldn't be eliminated (I work in a physical industry and very much hold my own- but yeah, there are times the big boys move certain things because they can and some of us can't and I'm not remotely ashamed), but I don't see myself being capable of being a pipe fitter, or running a jack hammer 10hrs a day. Physical strength is the biggest difference imo, and it's a reality.

With that being said, without all the women who fought (and still fight) for the right to be an equal part of the work force, women would not be holding some of the positions in companies that they do today... and even still there's discrimination and discrepancies in pay.

All in all- for me it's about the right of choices for any individual. I don't believe we should be trying to replace or emasculate men, or be criticized for staying home with our children whether we're the mother or father, or not be allowed to love whomever we want regardless of their gender, or not be allowed to submit to a man or have a man submit to us, or not be allowed to want to be the breadwinner of the family, and so on and so forth.

Part of my choice is that I like the differences of men and women, in fact relish in them. I do happen to lean towards more traditional roles of a man and woman, even as a very independent woman, but that's most likely because it's not my only choice.

Yes, I'm a feminist by the definition that I believe in equal opportunities, autonomy over my body, and the ability to make my own choices as a woman and human being.

[orchidsoul]

in the interim of me taking forever to write my post, Damyanti you posted and talked about many of the same causes of feminism I did. You mention 'in your country women didn't have to fight for voting and had the right to work and equality before the law'- I was curious in what country you live (if you don't mind saying)?

And yes, practice is oh so different.

[leo9]

The real fact is:

Wemon have made choices throughout human history long long long before the advent of the so called "feminist" movement.

Anyone can make a choice. A prisoner can make the choice to be free, but is still in prison.

Women have always been able to make choices to be free, independent, educated etc., but those choices meant nothing in societies which did not allow women to do those things. Feminism is the belief that women who make such choices should be allowed to act on them. It still leaves the others free to make the choices that society used to dictate for them.

We didn't need Feminism to make any desicions for us.

No, women needed feminists (who were, in case we forget, also women, not aliens from space imposing alien ideas) to change society so that they could carry out those decisions.

Feminists didn't make the decision for you who to vote for: they made it possible for you to vote, so your decision would actually mean something.

If your decision is not to vote because real women don't need to, you also have that choice, but a lot of people do want to. Would you deny them that choice to validate yours?

We have through out our existance beguiled, alured and even rarely forced our way into every avenue of power in every way possible, just fine without "feminism" or it's unnatural dogma.

No, not in any way possible: as your very clear description states, in the sidelong and undercover ways possible to people who are denied real control of their lives. All of which ways are still available to anyone (man or woman) who wants to use them, but thanks to several hundred years of feminism you can also do it in the ways free adults do.

It is in fact the feminists; with thier not so cleverly hidden agenda of emasculation, that would have us belive we would be channelled into one mold without choice.

This is the last resort of a failed argument: Never mind what you say or do, I can see what you really want, and I don't need to present any evidence, I just say so.

There are feminists who hate men. There are also anti-feminists who hate men. It has nothing to do with the core principle.

Any man who feels emasculated because a woman earns as much as he does has a serious self-image problem.