Just a comment

[leah06]

But that 'telling them what they want to hear' strikes a chord. Do you think there might be a danger of a sub giving too eagerly what she perceives the dom wants (seemingly being a 'good sub') and him so readily accepting this that he actually gains a false impression of who he's working with and what she really needs? Can a sub sometimes actually give too much?

OK, Pearlgem, now that you bring this up. . . . The Heartbreak Guy was really into authenticity and not "playing" - so, OK, possibly he was not as authentic as he thought he was, but never mind. In any event, I spent a fair amount of time thinking about previous interactions that I'd had and when they felt authentic and when they didn't.

So maybe what's going on here is saying something that I might plausibly be feeling, and if I were feeling it then the shoe would be on the other foot, control-wise, so to speak. But in fact, I'm not really feeling it, I'm just saying it because it's expected and appropriate to the situation - not lying, I think all flirting is a little like that. But it leads to a certain feeling of ironic detachment on my part. And, now that I think of it, I feel this way when flirting in a vanilla context too. It just moves me a step back from the interaction and I'm observing as well as participating.

And, I might add, if I really WERE feeling whatever I'm saying, I wouldn't be saying it so early in the relationship - I'd keep it to myself. Flirting is a little like that too - saying somewhat intimate things just a little too quickly. Anyway, I don't mean to imply that I'm doing some Machiavellian plotting or anything. It's just, some men pretty much signal what they want to hear. How can you not say it?

[Pearlgem]

It's just, some men pretty much signal what they want to hear. How can you not say it?

It's funny, Rachel, when I replied to your post I was really talking about myself, but you felt I'd hit a nerve with you. Which is gratifying, but I was wondering how I managed to be so clever and insightful!

Being personal again - you'd think your above statement would illustrate the ideal Dom/sub dynamic - Dom signals desire, sub gives him what he desires. But I take your point about flirting. It can be a game that distances the parties involved with premature intimacy which is not authentically gained (although I personally don't quite see it this way - flirting makes me feel alive and connected in a zingy way with a man.)

So, what's the problem with a sub just giving a Dom what he expects? Subs want to do this. Except if you see this as analogous to flirting there's a danger it's a false response which can actually mean that the Dom doesn't really get to know you, and you give yourself superficially in a bit of a void. Personally, I have found a tendency in myself to 'give the Dom what he wants' but it's not always an authentic response from me. I do it to be pleasing but he supposes I gain as much from it as he does. I don't always mind - that's subbing, right? - but I do feel a Dom should know you authentically, base his decisions on real knowledge of you, wisely seeing beyond your desire just to please him.

So, either you find a Dom that understands enough to get proper feedback from you for his own sake as much as yours, and/or, as a sub, you make sure your Dom knows you properly by being honest and speaking up.

Personally I never 'Sir' any Doms on here because I am aware of how easy it is to fall into that trap of sub-like acquiescence that means the Dom actually hasn't a clue who he's really speaking to.

But I like to flirt, which is, I find, a vanilla activity that translates well into the BDSM world.

[leah06]

[QUOTE=Pearlgem;749947]So, what's the problem with a sub just giving a Dom what he expects? Subs want to do this. Except if you see this as analogous to flirting there's a danger it's a false response which can actually mean that the Dom doesn't really get to know you, and you give yourself superficially in a bit of a void. Personally, I have found a tendency in myself to 'give the Dom what he wants' but it's not always an authentic response from me. I do it to be pleasing but he supposes I gain as much from it as he does. I don't always mind - that's subbing, right? - but I do feel a Dom should know you authentically, base his decisions on real knowledge of you, wisely seeing beyond your desire just to please him.

* * *

Personally I never 'Sir' any Doms on here because I am aware of how easy it is to fall into that trap of sub-like acquiescence that means the Dom actually hasn't a clue who he's really speaking to.QUOTE]

Oh, Pearlgem, so much of what you say speaks to me. Here's an example, and probably it shows what a dumb bunny I am. When I started with Heartbreak Guy, I'd been on this site for a while trying to figure some things out, and I'd been with a few other guys briefly, but I'd never tried to establish an ongoing D/s relationship. And as I mentioned, he was very into authenticity and tended to believe that only he had it and that everyone else was posing. So I stepped into this bubble with him where some of the most common D/s interactions were invested with tremendous weight because they were special just for us. And really, I was a virgin. And every task that he gave me, I agonized over, because I wanted it to be from the heart. So something like using a lower case for myself, and an upper case for him, was a really big deal, because I'd always sort of chuckled at P/people W/who W/write L/like T/this. And I only started doing it when I really felt in my heart that when I used that convention, I was symbolically sitting at his feet.

OK, there was a lot of stuff like that.

But you can never step in the same river twice. I'm not saying that I'm totally cynical and callous and that this stuff is meaningless, but it's just not as weighty as it was. When Scary Cold Guy got in touch with me with his touchingly straightforward proposition, i wrote Him back like this just for fun and because i knew He would like it. Easy, right? What had been a declaration as meaningful to me as wearing a collar became a fun way to shorthand that I'd like to play.

And that's fine. But it goes back to giving the Dom what he wants and who's really in control when you do.

Scary Cold Guy also wanted me to call him Sir. Now, I don't want to offend anyone and I understand why some people like titles. For myself, I like names better. I can call anyone by a title, but I can only call you by your name, and there's something so sexy and submissive to me in turning an ordinary name into a title just by investing it with weight. And I told Scary Cold Guy that, but I also told him that I'd Sir him if he wanted - which I wouldn't have done with Heartbreak Guy. Not just to play. So for that afternoon I called him Sir, and he smiled every time because he knew I was just humoring him.

IMHO it would have been more submissive to keep calling him by his name, which used to fall from my lips in respectful agony.

(Possibly I'm off topic here, but then, it's my thread.)