Snuff

[gagged_Louise]

Very interesting thread, all of you. I'm sometimes turned on by snuff motives but not as if it would be the fulfilment of being together or the only outcome of speaking your mind in an intolerable and unchanging situation. The first of those could be something like Sid Vicious and Nancy Spungen, the second could be a political martyr or perhaps even Christ - there are readings of the suffering and death of Christ where it's seen as a means of exposing something about evil rather than as a blood sacrifice.

What you seem to be sketching Arria is something like Sid and Nancy or a woman accepting to be the patsy for a crime or protest that her lover actually did commit. I never found Sid and Nancy very inspiring, rather dreary, but it could feel intriguing to some, I recognize that.

But if you suppose Sid were a real sadist and had actually tortured his girl-friend badly (which I don't think he did) and finally made her comply to die for him, then it gets harder to stomach, doesn't it? Sadistic snuff (not just killed, but tortured, perhaps raped and made to die in serious pain) feels like extreme degradation in my eyes, dehumanization. Sometimes the fantasy can feel thrilling to me, but mostly in a quick way I think. The ruthlessness and bluntness of it, the "we don't care for you" might feel a hot element, being led out manacled, whipped and hanged, but in reality it's the sort of thing I would never wish of course. I think this is one reason that including death in a role play has always felt tricky to me: when you're acting out a story or a scene with another, you're making them see things from the point of view of their character and if that person is cruelly put to death, it breaks the contract of fantasy in a way.

I'll be watching Michael Haneke's Funny Games in the next few days - borrowed the dvd yesterday. It's a movie I've been walking in curves around for years, I remember when it appeared ten years ago but it sounded too scary to go to the pictures and watch, especially after I'd heard the audio of an important scene on the radio, and an interview with Suzanne Lothar, who played the mother in the film. Funny Games is about a family going to their country cottage and who get sneaked upon by two nice-looking, polite young men who knock on the door and ask if they could have a few eggs. Soon they have taken the family - two adults, a son and a puppy - hostage, shoved their cell phones in the water, cut the phone wires, tied the people up and are taunting them that they will probably die. What's more, they turn at the audience and propose a wager, inviting us to see if the family will survive - by this move and others, Haneke reinforced that movie violence is something that has a huge market value because it's a kind of wish-fulfilment (or even a means of soothing the fear of this kind of gore happening to you when some psycho knocks on your door?) We are accomplices in the theater. But why do we wish for it, identify with being there - it's not just us kinksters who do that - when we can see what happens is just shocking and awful? I had to see that film at some time, and I'll be posting a review.

[damyanti]

But if you suppose Sid were a real sadist and had actually tortured his girl-friend badly (which I don't think he did) and finally made her comply to die for him, then it gets harder to stomach, doesn't it? Sadistic snuff (not just killed, but tortured, perhaps raped and made to die in serious pain) feels like extreme degradation in my eyes, dehumanization.

That is the first thing that comes to my mind when someone says snuff...others brought some other versions of snuff and I can sort of see where they are coming from and if a person is of sane mind, who are we and do we have the right to order or even tell them how to live or end their own life? But if it were someone really close to me, I would probably cringe and revert to questioning if those (as rachel06 said) who "consents" to snuff are simply incapable of giving meaningful consent.

Sometimes the fantasy can feel thrilling to me, but mostly in a quick way I think. The ruthlessness and bluntness of it, the "we don't care for you" might feel a hot element, being led out manacled, whipped and hanged, but in reality it's the sort of thing I would never wish of course. I think this is one reason that including death in a role play has always felt tricky to me: when you're acting out a story or a scene with another, you're making them see things from the point of view of their character and if that person is cruelly put to death, it breaks the contract of fantasy in a way.

...thank you for explaining it in such a great way, it clarifies a little what others see in it...but from a personal level I see nothing thrilling about it. Cruelty and dehumanization do nothing for me, but horrify and frighten me.

...to me BDSM is not crushing the will of someone else, it is capturing and turning another's power to your will and combining the two for the benefit of both. It's not a single moment of instantaneous gratification, but the drawn out interactions of pleasure over time.

Hence, snuff and Amber? Not my thing and I worry for those that consider it a worthy sacrifice just because their Master wants it. Frankly, it's harder to live for someone than it is to die for them, so unless death is in defense of another's life or an ideal that transcends your single life, then I think it's a little bit of a style without substance issue.

Great post Amber and this part mirrors my own view.