Do people 'deserve' universal health care?

[Dr_BuzzCzar]

Let me pose a health care story. He's worked in American industry for over 30 years rising through the ranks to an executive position. This means he's maintained his health care through work-place insurance. He has a wife and two boys. Sent both boys to college. The wife is a stay-at-home because they live their version of an M/s life. He has accumulated some of the trappings of success; a house on a river, near the ocean, drives a luxury auto, has a 401K, an IRA, some mutual funds, a decent stock portfolio, plus some cash. Not rich, but comfortable. The wife gets a surprise diagnosis of Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia after a yearly exam. There's no cure, but there's treatment to buy time waiting on technology to find that magic bullet. Her version of the disease is aggressive. She doesn't react well to the treatments and ends up with multiple hospital stays while they chase the causes. The economy goes in the tank. The division of the privately-owned business he's been running begins to struggle. Owner gets scared, decides he's closing that division down. Our subject is going to lose company insurance in a couple more months, COBRA will add another 18 months. After that he'll be paying for treatment out of those investments that have been decimated by the fall in the stock market. To put things in perspective her meds are expensive; shots that cost $4-$7k each, pills that cost $1k a month, lab tests that cost over $10k that need to be done a couple times a year, regular bi-weekly office visits, other shots, pills, tests, transfusions, etc. etc. Maybe the chemo she's taking will buy 20-24 months, maybe not. There's always the ultimate chance for this type disease, a bone marrow transplant that may offer full remission. Those cost about $500k not counting the cost of continuing care for a year or two after, and most importantly, depending on several factors, the survival rate is only about 58%.

Maybe he'll find work and regain insurance, maybe he won't. If he doesn't, 30 years of saving for a comfortable retirement will be consumed due to selling investments at these depressed prices in order to pay medical bills.

This isn't a fantasy, this is our life. The reason I have so much time to play on these forums is I have my laptop in the hospital and can get online while I sit by her bed. The rest of the time is doing the work involved in job searching.

I'm not looking for a bunch of sympathy, just pointing out that this debate on health care has a human face. A couple things going wrong can ruin lives very easily. Now odds are that I can find a decent job as I'm pretty good at what I do ( he says modestly) and we'll be fine, but there's a lot more out there that won't. Don't we deserve health care?

[Thorne]

I'm not looking for a bunch of sympathy, just pointing out that this debate on health care has a human face.

You do have my sympathy, sir. I know some of what you are going through as my brother is also undergoing treatments for cancer. He has recently had stem cell treatments and hopefully has turned the tide on his disease, but there are no guarantees.

Fortunately, his bills are largely covered by his disability insurance, which he earned by working for most of his life, paying his taxes, paying his dues, just like you and I and the vast majority of people in this country. Have we earned the right to health care? Certainly! We have done our bits to help society and both live and protect our ways of life.

As I understand it, Universal Health Care means that basic health care is available to everyone. Germany, for instance, has a Universal Health Care that covers 85% of their population that covers basic health needs. The other 15% opt for private insurance as they can afford it.

This is more in line with what I think UHC should be, as there is always the option for better coverage if desired. And as long as everyone pays into the system, more or less, that's fine.

But what of those who don't pay in? What of those who opt out because they need that extra few dollars a week in their paycheck and can't afford alternative care. Do we still provide them with free health care? And those who never pay into the system at all, are they eligible? While these may be a relatively small percentage of the population, probably more than the liberals would admit to but less than the conservatives will whine about, it is still a significant number of people, all living off the hard work of other people.

As Belgarold says in his post above, in a perfect world these kinds of systems would work well. But in a perfect world I guess these systems wouldn't be needed. This world is far from perfect, though. Unless I can get full reassurances that hard-working, law-abiding people can be treated well without having to be dragged down by hangers-on who will not work and will not abide by the law, I will remain suspicious of these kinds of systems.

[Dr_BuzzCzar]

But what of those who don't pay in? What of those who opt out because they need that extra few dollars a week in their paycheck and can't afford alternative care. Do we still provide them with free health care? And those who never pay into the system at all, are they eligible? While these may be a relatively small percentage of the population, probably more than the liberals would admit to but less than the conservatives will whine about, it is still a significant number of people, all living off the hard work of other people.

As Belgarold says in his post above, in a perfect world these kinds of systems would work well. But in a perfect world I guess these systems wouldn't be needed. This world is far from perfect, though. Unless I can get full reassurances that hard-working, law-abiding people can be treated well without having to be dragged down by hangers-on who will not work and will not abide by the law, I will remain suspicious of these kinds of systems.

Have you ever been into a hospital emergency room on a Saturday or Sunday? Unfortunately, I've had that experience and we have socialized medicine. Its already here. A significant number of people that don't have insurance go to emergency rooms. According to an experienced (read:Gray haired) Infectious Disease doctor I was having a conversation with this week, her estimation is 50% of the people that come to emergency rooms are uninsured.

We in the U.S. spend fantastic sums on health care and our results lag well behind most other developed nations. That's a proven fact. It isn't conjecture. Our system needs repair and it needs it quickly. I think we need to get the system in place that is an umbrella coverage for all and then work on how to weed out the cheats from both the providers and participants. I am under no illusion that there will not be those that try to beat the system but I can't see punishing the majority because of the failings of the few and our fear of rewarding bad behavior.

[Thorne]

Have you ever been into a hospital emergency room on a Saturday or Sunday? Unfortunately, I've had that experience and we have socialized medicine. Its already here. A significant number of people that don't have insurance go to emergency rooms. According to an experienced (read:Gray haired) Infectious Disease doctor I was having a conversation with this week, her estimation is 50% of the people that come to emergency rooms are uninsured.

And except in some of the more elite hospital systems, they are all taken care of. Perhaps they don't get the best quality care, but there are very few who are ever turned away.

And yes, I have been in a hospital emergency room on a Saturday morning. Fortunately, it wasn't an emergency. My son had received stitches in an earlier emergency and was supposed to have them removed. I took one look at all the people crammed into that emergency room, saw that many were drunk, some were wounded, most were sick, and all waiting for their turn at the "free" treatment, because they could not be turned away. I was fortunate to be able to say "Fuck it!" And I took my son to his pediatrician, who removed the stitches for his usual fee. I was happy to pay it.

[wmrs2]

I think everybody debating health care on this thread is interested in improving health care and supports as much universal health care as possible. Yet, there is much disagreement on how to deliver health goods (medicine) and services (attention of medical professionals). We all need to be convinced of the need to improve health services to the needy but we do not need to be duped into accepting another form of government. Socialism does not have to replace capitalism to achieve our collective goal of better health care for all.

Communism, a good example of socialism, has failed both in the distribution and production of goods and services throughout the world. Communist and socialist do not like to admit failure. In fact, in spite of their obvious failures in providing health care, they claim great success. In some socialist countries, they do have good health care. I am not trying to say that these systems never deliver but any American that believes that Cuba has a better quality of life than is offered in America has been greatly duped.

I know of no country in Asia that has better health care than the USA offers universally to its citizens. Japan may be an exception to this statement. The other socialist states in Asia suck in terms of health care. In Africa, what country provides health care to the same level as our citizens have in the USA? I do not see any great health systems in South America anywhere. In Western Europe there may be countries that offer adequate health care but Eastern Europe there is plenty of room for improvement. The USA is still the country that sets the standards for public health care by which the rest of the world judges itself. Yes, there are a few smaller counties that do well, maybe better, in public health care than the USA but make no mistake about it, the USA is the world leader in health care. The USA is also the world leader in sharing health care to the entire world. What health care system in the world can boast of the great production and world distribution of health services like American capitalism has provided.

Yes, let us improve health care for all but let us not be duped into thinking socialism or communism offers a better deal than what Americans have had in its past history with capitalism. Socialism uses issues like health care to make strides in promoting their way of life but they ultimately fall way short of delivery.
wmrs2

[Belgarold]

I think everybody debating health care on this thread is interested in improving health care and supports as much universal health care as possible. Yet, there is much disagreement on how to deliver health goods (medicine) and services (attention of medical professionals). We all need to be convinced of the need to improve health services to the needy but we do not need to be duped into accepting another form of government. Socialism does not have to replace capitalism to achieve our collective goal of better health care for all.

Communism, a good example of socialism, has failed both in the distribution and production of goods and services throughout the world. Communist and socialist do not like to admit failure. In fact, in spite of their obvious failures in providing health care, they claim great success. In some socialist countries, they do have good health care. I am not trying to say that these systems never deliver but any American that believes that Cuba has a better quality of life than is offered in America has been greatly duped.

I know of no country in Asia that has better health care than the USA offers universally to its citizens. Japan may be an exception to this statement. The other socialist states in Asia suck in terms of health care. In Africa, what country provides health care to the same level as our citizens have in the USA? I do not see any great health systems in South America anywhere. In Western Europe there may be countries that offer adequate health care but Eastern Europe there is plenty of room for improvement. The USA is still the country that sets the standards for public health care by which the rest of the world judges itself. Yes, there are a few smaller counties that do well, maybe better, in public health care than the USA but make no mistake about it, the USA is the world leader in health care. The USA is also the world leader in sharing health care to the entire world. What health care system in the world can boast of the great production and world distribution of health services like American capitalism has provided.

Yes, let us improve health care for all but let us not be duped into thinking socialism or communism offers a better deal than what Americans have had in its past history with capitalism. Socialism uses issues like health care to make strides in promoting their way of life but they ultimately fall way short of delivery.
wmrs2

A couple of points here. Someone hasn't been listening. Cuba was said to have better HEALTH care than most. Most of Western Europe has Universal Health Care and have not turned Socialistic or COmmunistic becasue of it. I think a good bit of Eastern Europe would take exception to your spurious characterization of their care.

Japan is NOT a Socialistic country and its Health care is top-notch. And did you READ BuzzCzar's post? Our System is sadly in need of overhauling. So the Rah-Rah attitude is unwarranted until we FIX the system.

Universal Health Care is NOT a communist plot.

[wmrs2]

A couple of points here. Someone hasn't been listening. Cuba was said to have better HEALTH care than most. Most of Western Europe has Universal Health Care and have not turned Socialistic or COmmunistic becasue of it. I think a good bit of Eastern Europe would take exception to your spurious characterization of their care.

Japan is NOT a Socialistic country and its Health care is top-notch. And did you READ BuzzCzar's post? Our System is sadly in need of overhauling. So the Rah-Rah attitude is unwarranted until we FIX the system.

Universal Health Care is NOT a communist plot.

Strange thing, the President just concluded the national forum on health care not twenty minutes ago. The members of the forum, both Democrats and Republicans took a non combative attitude towards each other, in their efforts to "find an American solution" to the health care problem. Everybody was on board with this idea of an American solution and if they had suggested we look towards Cuba for the solution, then that person would have appeared to be very non American.

Most world wide solutions to our political and economic problems have come from the USA. I personally have every right to be Rah-Rah towards America. The problem with too many liberals and socialist in America have been their listening to their own propaganda. They enjoy criticism of America and accuse any person who praises our country as narrow minded, selfish and too Rah-Rah. Your point of view is not friendly to Americans who do care and although you may not be a Communist, your rhetorical response to my praise of the USA is surely in line with the communist and socialist propaganda theme.

I know, you are going to say that anybody that disagrees with me, I call a Communist! I do not yet think you are a Communist and I think you want to be a loyal American but you appear to have swallowed hook,line and sinker the Communist propaganda when it comes to your political philosophy. As an American you should be proud to praise the history of the USA. You should be quick to stand with our past warriors and leaders who have guided us to the place we hold in the world. Sadly to say, too many liberals and socialist think this way of disliking the American way of doing things. (note, many liberals do not feel this way.)

[Dr_BuzzCzar]

Strange thing, the President just concluded the national forum on health care not twenty minutes ago. The members of the forum, both Democrats and Republicans took a non combative attitude towards each other, in their efforts to "find an American solution" to the health care problem. Everybody was on board with this idea of an American solution and if they had suggested we look towards Cuba for the solution, then that person would have appeared to be very non American.

I used the infant mortality rate in Cuba and Bosnia to make a point that our health care system has weaknesses. I don't for a moment believe that a communist or socialist government is better than a representative democracy. Facts are facts though, there are better health care systems than ours. We can and should have a better one. I'm not saying we should copy anyone's health care system but we would be foolish to not investigate those that out-perform ours and learn from them.

Most world wide solutions to our political and economic problems have come from the USA.

Sorry, I don't understand that sentence.

I personally have every right to be Rah-Rah towards America. The problem with too many liberals and socialist in America have been their listening to their own propaganda. They enjoy criticism of America and accuse any person who praises our country as narrow minded, selfish and too Rah-Rah. Your point of view is not friendly to Americans who do care and although you may not be a Communist, your rhetorical response to my praise of the USA is surely in line with the communist and socialist propaganda theme.

I know, you are going to say that anybody that disagrees with me, I call a Communist! I do not yet think you are a Communist and I think you want to be a loyal American but you appear to have swallowed hook,line and sinker the Communist propaganda when it comes to your political philosophy. As an American you should be proud to praise the history of the USA. You should be quick to stand with our past warriors and leaders who have guided us to the place we hold in the world. Sadly to say, too many liberals and socialist think this way of disliking the American way of doing things. (note, many liberals do not feel this way.)

I'm as proud of being an American as anyone, as is the vast majority of those liberals you speak of in such a demeaning manner. Just an FYI, I'm sitting here looking at the shadow box on the wall behind this computer with my unit patches and my medals from my Army service. Among those is a Purple Heart with Oak Leaf Cluster. You don't have to be a right-wing neo-con to have fought for your country. One of the things I take great pride in as an American is the right to criticize what I see as shortcomings and wrongs performed by my country. One of my favorite paintings is by Norman Rockwell and it is of a boy looking admirably up at his father, a man in work clothes, who is standing up in a town meeting and speaking. That personifies this country to me. We all have that freedom of speech and failing to see her shortcomings is much more dangerous than blindly backing the status quo all the time, in my opinion.

[wmrs2]

I used the infant mortality rate in Cuba and Bosnia to make a point that our health care system has weaknesses. I don't for a moment believe that a communist or socialist government is better than a representative democracy. Facts are facts though, there are better health care systems than ours. We can and should have a better one. I'm not saying we should copy anyone's health care system but we would be foolish to not investigate those that out-perform ours and learn from them.


Sorry, I don't understand that sentence.



I'm as proud of being an American as anyone, as is the vast majority of those liberals you speak of in such a demeaning manner. Just an FYI, I'm sitting here looking at the shadow box on the wall behind this computer with my unit patches and my medals from my Army service. Among those is a Purple Heart with Oak Leaf Cluster. You don't have to be a right-wing neo-con to have fought for your country. One of the things I take great pride in as an American is the right to criticize what I see as shortcomings and wrongs performed by my country. One of my favorite paintings is by Norman Rockwell and it is of a boy looking admirably up at his father, a man in work clothes, who is standing up in a town meeting and speaking. That personifies this country to me. We all have that freedom of speech and failing to see her shortcomings is much more dangerous than blindly backing the status quo all the time, in my opinion.

We would be very foolish if we copied Cuba's model of health care. What might be good for a small country can not be compared to a large country like the USA. Also, the statistics coming out of a communist country like Cuba can not be trusted. Their facts are not facts.

Sorry if you think I speak of liberals in a demeaning manner. My intention is to point out the Hegelian logic the liberals use. The term a right-wing neo-con is sarcastic and demeaning but liberals indiscriminately use it whenever a conservative praises his country.

"We all have that freedom of speech and failing to see her shortcomings is much more dangerous than blindly backing the status quo all the time, in my opinion." I agree with this statement but it also applies to liberals when they back communist and socialist propaganda. Socialist and capitalist are consistently making this charge of each other. Which side do you come down on? That would be interesting to know.

[mkemse]

We would be very foolish if we copied Cuba's model of health care. What might be good for a small country can not be compared to a large country like the USA. Also, the statistics coming out of a communist country like Cuba can not be trusted. Their facts are not facts.

Sorry if you think I speak of liberals in a demeaning manner. My intention is to point out the Hegelian logic the liberals use. The term a right-wing neo-con is sarcastic and demeaning but liberals indiscriminately use it whenever a conservative praises his country.

"We all have that freedom of speech and failing to see her shortcomings is much more dangerous than blindly backing the status quo all the time, in my opinion." I agree with this statement but it also applies to liberals when they back communist and socialist propaganda. Socialist and capitalist are consistently making this charge of each other. Which side do you come down on? That would be interesting to know.

I have NEVER backed any Communist or Social Propoganda or Philosophy and again do not apprciate being label A Communist or Scialist simply because I am a Democraitc, you seem to have this intense need to label all Democroats Socialists and Communists,simply because their or my views are not the same as yours, some may be communisrts, never met A Communist so i do not know,I have no Idea, I most Ceratinly are not, never have been never will be and do not apprciate being Labeled one becuase my views differ from yours, feel free to disagree with my views if you want, only without Reffering to me and Democrtas all time as Communist/Socialist, we aren't, we simply have different view onthings then you do, butthat does not make a a Communist or Socialt, it makes me an American Citize who view differ fro tohers, no more no less
I also have never seen you post any actual documentaion of any kind showing that all Democrats are Communists and Socialsts,you keep saying it but do not doucment where you saw this, where it was published or printed to show written documented and proof that They/We are all Communists

fini

[Belgarold]

Let me pose a health care story. He's worked in American industry for over 30 years rising through the ranks to an executive position. This means he's maintained his health care through work-place insurance. He has a wife and two boys. Sent both boys to college. The wife is a stay-at-home because they live their version of an M/s life. He has accumulated some of the trappings of success; a house on a river, near the ocean, drives a luxury auto, has a 401K, an IRA, some mutual funds, a decent stock portfolio, plus some cash. Not rich, but comfortable. The wife gets a surprise diagnosis of Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia after a yearly exam. There's no cure, but there's treatment to buy time waiting on technology to find that magic bullet. Her version of the disease is aggressive. She doesn't react well to the treatments and ends up with multiple hospital stays while they chase the causes. The economy goes in the tank. The division of the privately-owned business he's been running begins to struggle. Owner gets scared, decides he's closing that division down. Our subject is going to lose company insurance in a couple more months, COBRA will add another 18 months. After that he'll be paying for treatment out of those investments that have been decimated by the fall in the stock market. To put things in perspective her meds are expensive; shots that cost $4-$7k each, pills that cost $1k a month, lab tests that cost over $10k that need to be done a couple times a year, regular bi-weekly office visits, other shots, pills, tests, transfusions, etc. etc. Maybe the chemo she's taking will buy 20-24 months, maybe not. There's always the ultimate chance for this type disease, a bone marrow transplant that may offer full remission. Those cost about $500k not counting the cost of continuing care for a year or two after, and most importantly, depending on several factors, the survival rate is only about 58%.

Maybe he'll find work and regain insurance, maybe he won't. If he doesn't, 30 years of saving for a comfortable retirement will be consumed due to selling investments at these depressed prices in order to pay medical bills.

This isn't a fantasy, this is our life. The reason I have so much time to play on these forums is I have my laptop in the hospital and can get online while I sit by her bed. The rest of the time is doing the work involved in job searching.

I'm not looking for a bunch of sympathy, just pointing out that this debate on health care has a human face. A couple things going wrong can ruin lives very easily. Now odds are that I can find a decent job as I'm pretty good at what I do ( he says modestly) and we'll be fine, but there's a lot more out there that won't. Don't we deserve health care?

Dr. BuzzCzar, I also have sympathy for your position and situation. And as you have so eloquently posted on numerous ocassions, you are not the only one in a similar situation. I will hope you find support for what you need.

[wmrs2]

Dr. BuzzCzar, I also have sympathy for your position and situation. And as you have so eloquently posted on numerous ocassions, you are not the only one in a similar situation. I will hope you find support for what you need.

I hope you are not suggesting that his crisis situation is the fault of America. We as a nation are moving in the direction of better health care for all Americans. I was glad to see that Belgarold still has a strong faith in America and says he will be fine. Our country is trying to come through for all Americans.This is the best place in the world to be sick. I for one would love to hear you admit this too.

[mkemse]

I hope you are not suggesting that his crisis situation is the fault of America. We as a nation are moving in the direction of better health care for all Americans. I was glad to see that Belgarold still has a strong faith in America and says he will be fine. Our country is trying to come through for all Americans.This is the best place in the world to be sick. I for one would love to hear you admit this too.

Well put, this is an ugly siutation for ALL, something has to be done children deserve medical coverage they can't pay for it themselves

[Belgarold]

I hope you are not suggesting that his crisis situation is the fault of America. We as a nation are moving in the direction of better health care for all Americans. I was glad to see that Belgarold still has a strong faith in America and says he will be fine. Our country is trying to come through for all Americans.This is the best place in the world to be sick. I for one would love to hear you admit this too.

I will be ignoring your narrowminded ranting from now on, you have no selfwareness and hash over the same tired old adages.

Here, I was giving sympathy to someone in a very difficult situation as a true Human Being would. ANd you STILL have not been listening or reading. Many people have died, leaving their loved one's in grief and IMMENSE debt because of the current System. But where in the Heck did I say anything political in my statement.

But you have taken what I have said, to someone living through one of the problems with health care and taken my sympathy for them and twisted it for your own SICK aims.

You are not worth my time.

[wmrs2]

I will be ignoring your narrowminded ranting from now on, you have no selfwareness and hash over the same tired old adages.

Here, I was giving sympathy to someone in a very difficult situation as a true Human Being would. ANd you STILL have not been listening or reading. Many people have died, leaving their loved one's in grief and IMMENSE debt because of the current System. But where in the Heck did I say anything political in my statement.

But you have taken what I have said, to someone living through one of the problems with health care and taken my sympathy for them and twisted it for your own SICK aims.

You are not worth my time.

Ignore me, do whatever you like. By acknowledging the history of the USA of having been great does not diminish Cuba, Asia, or any other country that provides health care for their people. It does not constitute narrow minded ranting as you suggest. My initial post to which you apparently disagree was not a criticism of the world but it was intended to point out the disdain that so called liberal wisdom has for America. It pleases me that several countries around the world provide good health care for their citizens.

The disdain you feel for capitalism and your refusal to give capitalism credit for America's achievements is well marked by your statement"WHile most Americans suffer." Your vision is not correct. Most Americans do not suffer. Some do and that is what we are trying to cure. But your vision is wrong and that is the frame in which you criticize my praise of the USA and call it narrow minded.

There is nothing sick about my aims. Your criticism of me is really based on the fact that your liberal and socialistic ideas have a tent of left wing conspiracy attached to them. The fact is, the billions of people around the world that have been promised by socialist and communist that to follow their way guarantees a healthier way of life has not panned out. I want our friends who are suffering lose of jobs and medical care to have better. But, it is not a sick way to point out your hidden agenda to make the USA smaller in the eyes of the world. You promote a different American way of life than our history illustrates. As the President and fellow patriots pointed out today, we will find an American way to solve our problems. Do you think the new President has taken your sympathy and twisted it for his own SICK aims?

I am only guilty of saying something positive about the country. Yet, you show unmeasured resentment of what the President and I both said. If you would say something good about our country, I think I could listen to your ranting a little better. I now leave this thread.

[mkemse]

I hope you are not suggesting that his crisis situation is the fault of America. We as a nation are moving in the direction of better health care for all Americans. I was glad to see that Belgarold still has a strong faith in America and says he will be fine. Our country is trying to come through for all Americans.This is the best place in the world to be sick. I for one would love to hear you admit this too.

I am a Liberal and I have a much Faith in the Country as any Liberal or Conservative, we WILL as a Nation get through this crisis just as we have others crisises we have been in, in the past, it may time time but we will weathe this storm, some may not ike the solution but you are no going to please 100% of the people 100% of the time

[Dr_BuzzCzar]

I hope you are not suggesting that his crisis situation is the fault of America. .....This is the best place in the world to be sick. I for one would love to hear you admit this too.

If it isn't the fault of America's health care system where does the fault lie? with me?

How do you know this is the best place in the world to be sick? Every metric I can find says we're near the best, but not the best.

Take my wife's disease. The best treatments in the world for that disease (and if you knew me personally you'd know I've researched the hell out of this) are in Barcelona, London, and Houston (MD Anderson). Two of those are in what you sneeringly refer to as socialist systems and the third is here in the USA. There are some folks in Canada, Australia, and Singapore that appear to be gaining on these three as is Jewish Medical Center on Long Island and the Ohio State Medical Center in Columbus. Our system isn't lousy. It's great if you can afford it. We can be so much better.

[wmrs2]

If it isn't the fault of America's health care system where does the fault lie? with me?

How do you know this is the best place in the world to be sick? Every metric I can find says we're near the best, but not the best.

Take my wife's disease. The best treatments in the world for that disease (and if you knew me personally you'd know I've researched the hell out of this) are in Barcelona, London, and Houston (MD Anderson). Two of those are in what you sneeringly refer to as socialist systems and the third is here in the USA. There are some folks in Canada, Australia, and Singapore that appear to be gaining on these three as is Jewish Medical Center on Long Island and the Ohio State Medical Center in Columbus. Our system isn't lousy. It's great if you can afford it. We can be so much better.

Yes, we can do better and I side with you in trying to do better. As to being your fault for being sick, of course it is not your fault. God has seen fit to rain on all men equally. Bad is going to happen to us all and it is none of our fault. We also receive good and that is not our fault either.

Maybe I should amend my statement to say that this is the best country in the world for me in which to be sick. Many Americans feel this way and that does not make us mean spirited. You have my sympathy and prayers. I certainly hope you well.

[Dr_BuzzCzar]

Yes, we can do better and I side with you in trying to do better. As to being your fault for being sick, of course it is not your fault. God has seen fit to rain on all men equally. Bad is going to happen to us all and it is none of our fault. We also receive good and that is not our fault either.

Maybe I should amend my statement to say that this is the best country in the world for me in which to be sick. Many Americans feel this way and that does not make us mean spirited. You have my sympathy and prayers. I certainly hope you well.

So God did it it me? Wow. So God must love the social democracies more because they have better health care?

You use Medicare, that medical safety net system that is paid for with taxes to cover your own needs. Therefore I'm guessing that you have that Social Security deposit made every month. That comes from taxes too.

[wmrs2]

So God did it it me? Wow. So God must love the social democracies more because they have better health care?

You use Medicare, that medical safety net system that is paid for with taxes to cover your own needs. Therefore I'm guessing that you have that Social Security deposit made every month. That comes from taxes too.

You really have been damaged if you interpret what I said to be anything but sympathetic to your situation. I don't blame God for anything. A favorite statement of an atheist friend of mine is "that shit happens."

For the record, I do not make SS payments or withdraws. I would like to participate but I can not.